jud

dashicat;  Went back to my cad drawing and snapped some distances to see how it effected the Tiller ropes when full rudder movement was used. I snapped the distance between the center of the sheave axles rather than compute the ark length around the sheaves, would still show the effect by doing it the easy way.
 
Tiller amidships:  total length between block centers at the Vs   27.4 ft.
Rudder half Left:  total length between block centers at the Vs   27.2 ft.
Rudder hard left:  total length between block centers at the Vs   27.0 ft.
                                              Total Difference     0.4 ft.
Measurements from the drawing I posted several days ago, other drawings will get different numbers but the same trend.
 
Would need to rig the Tiller ropes with the tiller amidships
with no slack, at hard over there would be some slack, decreasing
as the Tiller swung back to C/L which verifies the effects you
computed. Because of the stove chimney, I believe that the tiller
ropes were removed for expected extreme rudder shifts.
All speculation on my part.
jud

dashicat;  Went back to my cad drawing and snapped some distances to see how it effected the Tiller ropes when full rudder movement was used. I snapped the distance between the center of the sheave axles rather than compute the ark length around the sheaves, would still show the effect by doing it the easy way.
 
Tiller amidships:  total length between block centers at the Vs   27.4 ft.
Rudder half Left:  total length between block centers at the Vs   27.2 ft.
Rudder hard left:  total length between block centers at the Vs   27.0 ft.
                                              Total Difference     0.4 ft.
Measurements from the drawing I posted several days ago, other drawings will get different numbers but the same trend.
 
Would need to rig the Tiller ropes with the tiller amidships
with no slack, at hard over there would be some slack, decreasing
as the Tiller swung back to C/L which verifies the effects you
computed. Because of the stove chimney, I believe that the tiller
ropes were removed for expected extreme rudder shifts.
All speculation on my part.
jud

It's not so much the brand of chisel, but how well it's sharpened that matters. I use a Lee Valley (Veritas) sharpening system with their jig and stone pond. I have water stones of 1000 and 4000 grit and add a micro-bevel on the edge. The back of the chisel is also polished to a mirror finish. Cutting with a well-sharpened edge produces the sound of a fresh apple being cut and beautiful shavings.

Thanks Jud.
 
Had another look at how the block position opposite the tiller head affects the helm rope tension. Lengthening the block ropes didn't solve the tension problem. I put my good glasses on and made some more precise measurements and it appears that from the centre to hard over gradually introduces 1 ft of slack to the helm rope. Back to the drawing board to try Jud's suggestion of running closer to the chimney cowl. 

Several hours later and I try the next position as suggested by Jud...
 
Thanks, following your idea has found a workable solution to the helm slack exactly like you prophesied. Here are my measurements of the helm rope between the starboard and port tiller blocks at varying degrees if I move them 2.5 mm or 2/16" @ 1:64 scale aft of (their previous position at the bulwarks) the line at right angles from the tiller head. This brings the helm ropes to almost touch the (what could have been wood chimney cowl) at full over. My calculations suppose the tiller arc being only along the horizontal plane or sweep and does not include a vertical arc created by the angle of the rudder post relative to the level of the deck.
 
Centre: 42=42=84mm
1/4: 32.5+51.5=83mm (added from my later post #79)
1/2: 61+22.5=83.5mm
3/4: 71+13=84mm
Full Over: 80.5+5=86mm
 
As you can see only 2mm or approx 6" at 1:1 of slack is created after 3/4 Full Over which I think is a very workable solution.
Could someone please check this incase I've made an error (which I'm prone to do)?

After looking at a bunch of photos taken aboard the The Replica Endeavour, I am starting to look at the Tiller a little differently. Haven't changed my mind that the Tiller needs support to ease stress on the Rudder Head clear down to the rudder. I believe that to ease passage through the water the ship uses it's sails not only for power, but using them to cause the ship to want to track in desired heading. If the ship were balanced, only small rudder adjustments would be needed and the chimney would not be in danger of being broken with the Tiller Ropes. The Tiller Ropes appear to have been looped back through the Tiller ring and lashed to it's self. That lashing looked like it was placed so it could be quickly and easily cast free of the tiller. Hard over rudder positions are not the norm and usually are anticipated in advance. The Tiller is longer than what we think as the norm when using a wheel, perhaps the transition period during this place in time while perfecting the use of the wheel created a need to be able to use both wheel and hands on tiller. Ain't speculation cool.
jud

After looking at a bunch of photos taken aboard the The Replica Endeavour, I am starting to look at the Tiller a little differently. Haven't changed my mind that the Tiller needs support to ease stress on the Rudder Head clear down to the rudder. I believe that to ease passage through the water the ship uses it's sails not only for power, but using them to cause the ship to want to track in desired heading. If the ship were balanced, only small rudder adjustments would be needed and the chimney would not be in danger of being broken with the Tiller Ropes. The Tiller Ropes appear to have been looped back through the Tiller ring and lashed to it's self. That lashing looked like it was placed so it could be quickly and easily cast free of the tiller. Hard over rudder positions are not the norm and usually are anticipated in advance. The Tiller is longer than what we think as the norm when using a wheel, perhaps the transition period during this place in time while perfecting the use of the wheel created a need to be able to use both wheel and hands on tiller. Ain't speculation cool.
jud

druxey; Believe I made a note about that on one of those drawings. They are not finished plans, only a quick illustration of an idea. Also the end of the wood in that tiller is shown with a hidden line. ' dashed ', at the point the Iron begins. I did not reduce the width there because the photos of the rebuild of the Endeavour's tiller in post 31 do not show a narrowing from the wood section of the tiller to  the iron end, Shows clearly in DFX but not so well in PDF, one reason for the drawing was to find these things out.
jud

After looking at a bunch of photos taken aboard the The Replica Endeavour, I am starting to look at the Tiller a little differently. Haven't changed my mind that the Tiller needs support to ease stress on the Rudder Head clear down to the rudder. I believe that to ease passage through the water the ship uses it's sails not only for power, but using them to cause the ship to want to track in desired heading. If the ship were balanced, only small rudder adjustments would be needed and the chimney would not be in danger of being broken with the Tiller Ropes. The Tiller Ropes appear to have been looped back through the Tiller ring and lashed to it's self. That lashing looked like it was placed so it could be quickly and easily cast free of the tiller. Hard over rudder positions are not the norm and usually are anticipated in advance. The Tiller is longer than what we think as the norm when using a wheel, perhaps the transition period during this place in time while perfecting the use of the wheel created a need to be able to use both wheel and hands on tiller. Ain't speculation cool.
jud

The foot ropes are not hung from a hole in the center of the yard for a good reason, they are suspended over the rear of the yard on the side used by the top-men do their sail handling. Staying on the yard to do their work, is the reason, climbing a rope ladder will quickly show you why, your feet end up out in front of you and leave you hanging from your arms. Keeping your feet to the rear and resting your body on or over the yard can't be done with your feet out under the yard where they would tend to go if the foot ropes were hung directly under the yard, might be able to keep yourself from falling, but you would do little sail handling. Some good methods about how to make the foot-rope hangers and stirrups are noted in this thread, also in a past post there was explained a good way to hang them. On a model it may make no difference to you where and how you hang them, just as long as it is close, your call.
jud

I've done some calculations as to the possible weight of the 18 foot wooden part of the tiller if made from oak. I am not an engineer but I've got a figure of around 280 pounds - 320 pounds 130 - 150 Kgs.
 
I'm not sure what the replica tiller is made of but someone mentioned in an earlier post that it might be made from a laminate or it could even be composite which have a much better weight to load ratio than hard wood and therefore wouldn't need the same level of bracing and support. I read that laminate can be as much as 50 to 200% stronger. So until someone can confirm the specification and material of the replica tiller then references to it may not be relevant to answering this question for the possible need of an above deck tiller support at 2/3 rds along it's length.
 
Another consideration is if the helm tackle were to break then with out some form of stops you would have a 300 pound metal tipped 18 foot pole crashing into the deck and bulwark possibly in rough seas.
 
As for the abaft fire flu according to Lawrey's book its possible it is a wooden cowl with a swivel top the same shape and size as on replica. But the helm tackle would still need to clear it.

druxey; Believe I made a note about that on one of those drawings. They are not finished plans, only a quick illustration of an idea. Also the end of the wood in that tiller is shown with a hidden line. ' dashed ', at the point the Iron begins. I did not reduce the width there because the photos of the rebuild of the Endeavour's tiller in post 31 do not show a narrowing from the wood section of the tiller to  the iron end, Shows clearly in DFX but not so well in PDF, one reason for the drawing was to find these things out.
jud

druxey; Believe I made a note about that on one of those drawings. They are not finished plans, only a quick illustration of an idea. Also the end of the wood in that tiller is shown with a hidden line. ' dashed ', at the point the Iron begins. I did not reduce the width there because the photos of the rebuild of the Endeavour's tiller in post 31 do not show a narrowing from the wood section of the tiller to  the iron end, Shows clearly in DFX but not so well in PDF, one reason for the drawing was to find these things out.
jud

Used one of those when hand drafting and needed to show a transition spiral along a Hwy C/L or ROW, worked fine with pencil or ink, it's around here someplace. Also have a Staedtler 951  60-24 which I liked better. The 951 was heavier, could lead it around smaller curves and was heavy enough to stay where you wanted it. Don't know if they are still available.
Just looked, they are.
Staedtler® Mars® Flexible Curve, 24", Light Blue, less than 10 dollars.jud

I did a bit of spiling on my planking and wales at the bow. I have become very comfortable with the tape method and used a pencil to mark the tape - a sharpie made a mess when I used it. The tape was Scotch (3M) Matte Finish - about 3/4 inch. I have the Staedtler 971 but hardly use it. While I used my mini-band saw for cutting some of the planks it would not have been hard to use a blade. The nice thing about the tape method is that you can put the tape right onto the plank you're going to cut and sand. No matter what method you use to transcribe the curve to the board, there will always be fine tuning to fit the shape to the adjoining surfaces.
Ian

Used one of those when hand drafting and needed to show a transition spiral along a Hwy C/L or ROW, worked fine with pencil or ink, it's around here someplace. Also have a Staedtler 951  60-24 which I liked better. The 951 was heavier, could lead it around smaller curves and was heavy enough to stay where you wanted it. Don't know if they are still available.
Just looked, they are.
Staedtler® Mars® Flexible Curve, 24", Light Blue, less than 10 dollars.jud

Used one of those when hand drafting and needed to show a transition spiral along a Hwy C/L or ROW, worked fine with pencil or ink, it's around here someplace. Also have a Staedtler 951  60-24 which I liked better. The 951 was heavier, could lead it around smaller curves and was heavy enough to stay where you wanted it. Don't know if they are still available.
Just looked, they are.
Staedtler® Mars® Flexible Curve, 24", Light Blue, less than 10 dollars.jud

Dashicat, How I did it was to draw a line from the block anchor point on the tiller to the end of the arc that I had drawn representing the travel line of the end  of the tiller. At the point that that arc was tangent, 'the part of the arc furthest from the first line I drew', to the first line, I made a mark and drew a perpendicular from the first line thru the mark on the arc I had just made. Found the mid point along that perpendicular between the first line and the ark, drew a line from the beginning point of that first line through the midpoint to the rail, then used equal distances from that point of intersection with the rail forward and another equal length towards the stern for block positions, repeated until I had two points with a pleasing spread, looking like it would work. That way should keep the tension as even as you could without leading the tiller rope along the arc of the tiller as the wheel was turned. A mirror image used for the other side.
Need to remember that this is just a method I might try if the problem was mine to take care of, there are some attempting to root out some facts, they may not find any, that would be a shame, the drawings we have seen do not look like a working solution to some of us. The Laws of physics are the same today as they were then, so we do have a method of judging any method shown in documents of the past for any deficiency's and conflicts with reality.
Turns on a drum, would not need to increase the turns unless there was slippage. The nature of a drum in that it lets out and equal length it takes in regardless of the number of turns as long as the number of turns is within reason.
I don't think I can add anything more that would useful to this discussion, I do find it interesting but probably need to let it go and watch for more facts.
jud

Looking at the build log of the HMB Endeavor by Kiwiron/Occre kit, post 1 and 245 it would appear that I was reinventing the wheel. Worth a look.
jud

Looking at the build log of the HMB Endeavor by Kiwiron/Occre kit, post 1 and 245 it would appear that I was reinventing the wheel. Worth a look.
jud

Looking at the build log of the HMB Endeavor by Kiwiron/Occre kit, post 1 and 245 it would appear that I was reinventing the wheel. Worth a look.
jud

robin b; Changed the sketch in my post, primarily to see how line widths are effected when printing cad to the Cute PDF software and then bringing that to this site. Refined the original and added a Full Left Rudder configuration. Agree that rigging this way will effect the wheel movement and tiller response, don't consider that much of a problem but if it is, doubling the circumference of the wheel drum would negate the effect. This rigging setup allows plenty of room for the arc but the smoke stack would be in harms way. Are you sure about the additional turns on the wheel drum would need to be increased rigging this way?

jud

robin b; Changed the sketch in my post, primarily to see how line widths are effected when printing cad to the Cute PDF software and then bringing that to this site. Refined the original and added a Full Left Rudder configuration. Agree that rigging this way will effect the wheel movement and tiller response, don't consider that much of a problem but if it is, doubling the circumference of the wheel drum would negate the effect. This rigging setup allows plenty of room for the arc but the smoke stack would be in harms way. Are you sure about the additional turns on the wheel drum would need to be increased rigging this way?

jud

Well, this is the 'tools-to-make-more-tools'-syndrom … I know this all too well 

It seems that my Sherline mill gets used at least as often to build tools/fixtures as it does to make actual model parts. Examples are a fixture for holding propeller blades in the right orientation for soldering and a fixture to hold the very mall blades of my model makers spoke shaves in my honing guide. This means that I use it for materials that do not actually get incorporated into a model- often aluminum.
 
Roger