Thanasis

Hi again.
This is what I found in another book...

 

Hi. To add my two pennies' worth . 
I have also read (I'm not familiar to sailing), that when the wind is at the stern,  a lateen sail at  longwise of the boat, turns out to be weak to take full this advantage. So some mariners prefer a "freely" attached lateen yard-sail (outside of the shrouds) so that they could set it and use it as square one.
See the shrouds with pulleys and the lateen sail at square use in a Trabaccolo vessel.
Thx
..
 
 

Hi.
See whether these sketces could help you...
Thx

Hi all and...
Thx    
 

Mates, since the model of schooner "Terpsichore" is going to exhibited in a Anniversary exhibition "Greece 1821-2021" this weekend,
here is a photo of her and the famous 48pdr cannon.   
The model has been built by my friend George Bouzounis whose some models of him you can see in below links.
https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1534-greek-sakoleva/
 https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1538-skaphee-from-symi-island/
 https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1529-rowing-quottrataquot/
Thx
 
 
  

Hi all.
Comments please...
Thx

 

Hi all.
Comments please...
Thx

Hi all.
Comments please...
Thx

 

Mates, since the model of schooner "Terpsichore" is going to exhibited in a Anniversary exhibition "Greece 1821-2021" this weekend,
here is a photo of her and the famous 48pdr cannon.   
The model has been built by my friend George Bouzounis whose some models of him you can see in below links.
https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1534-greek-sakoleva/
 https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1538-skaphee-from-symi-island/
 https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1529-rowing-quottrataquot/
Thx
 
 
  

Many thanks Liste.
You are as always much analytic in your explanations.
However  I must say you set new elements in this discussion for which there are no (I don't have) any information  from hystorical Gr texts I've read nor for the  total Carron's products to rely on.
These are the comertial for merchant use (special or by order I guess) carronade and the gunnade.
And although I accept any simple description for the weapon from a ordinary sailor of that time, or from an with less knowledge  historian, I don't know how to see this description from an English naval officer, who, I point out again, writes about gunnery results without ful information about the gun or its nationality.
In any case, I really thank you all for this discussion which was much enlightening, at least to conclude that I can make only guesses.
Thanasis

Thank you all for your participation. 
I must say that, like in some other threads in this forum, I'm trying to exam infos that are revealed in texts from here and there, about a weapon on a schooner.
What was written, is that on the schooner was a "big cannon" or "a heavy gun" or "a 48pdr gun" or "a gun with big caliber" or "a carronade" or "an  obusier (howitzer)" and so on. The weapon was set in the prow as chase gun and nothing more.
So examing the case of a carronade and as far I know,   between 1800-1822 there was not 48pdr carronade but as I recently found, a Spanish 48pdr obusier (howitzer) that was used in Trafalgar naval battle (1805). According to what is written the French answer to a " carronade" was a 36pdr obusier (howitzer) and I don't know I should say, that in this naval battle, the English were refering to French captured "obusier de vaisseau" (naval howitzer), as carronade.
Next I'm coming to the use of that weapon.
If was a carronad, could be  used as chase gun? As I' ve read it was used as unti-personel weapon. Couldn't  its small range be a problem as chaser?
I also have read that there were many type of carriages for a carronade to be placed on but despite the way, I want also to exam how the Spanish vertion obusier  (howitzer) could be operatted.
And finaly about the shot (ball) of a 48pdr cannon. 
No matter what the weapon (48pdr carronade of the text) was loaded with , why on the schooner were shots (balls) of a 48pdr cannon?
Many thanks

From my library.
Thx

Thank you Wefalck.
So, if I  understand well, you also assume that.
  a. He refers to a carriage that was giving the ability to move the barrel also left or right.
  b. There should be a deck fitted pivot for securing the carriage and  safe fire from the weapon.
  c.Yes, there was not traversing carriages at that time (1821) and especialy in a schooner, so that carronade coudn't be in a gun port possition.
As about the shot, I gather that a 48pdr carronade could fire a 48pdr cannon ball under conditions.
Thank you

Hi all again. 
Sorry, I was waiting the resurrection of my pc to get back...
So I pretty please for your help to my following queries about the writing of the text in the first post.

a.The writer describing the carronade,  specifies that is  on a swiver and what we assume, is that he reffers to a mounted pivot-carriage. 
If I'm not wrong, the carronades were produced mainly on a pivot-carriage and had the ability to move up and down by a screw. 
So,  can we assume  that by using the term "swivel", determines that it was placed on a carriage by which had also the ability to move left and right? And if is so, can we consider that this carronade was not placed in a gun port (which it would set limitations) but maybe amidship or in the prow?

b. Why the writer again specifies that the carronade was loaded by "a shot (ball) from a 48pdr gun (cannon)"? 
I'm not familiar but this seems to me that the carronade was loaded with a non proper ammunition, something for its own. Am I right?
I would like to have your opinions.

Ps: My English can't help me to see the defference between pivot and swivel. 
Many thanks
Thanasis

Good evening all! Another small test project, which building process I forgot to record.. It is in fact my first small scale scratchbuilt square rigged ship. Mostly an exercise on the rigging method at such a size, on a generic and rather simple base and hull, representing a 19th century greek merchant brig, circa 1/350, waterline. A single-post thread, with the end result straight away. If mods think there is no much point  please delete. 

Hi all. This is "My way of seizing."
Thx

This is my tip, as an example of what you can do following:  "My way of seizing"     
Thx

 

Thank you all.
My last finding  might explains everything....
I would appreciate if someone can confirm what I read somewhere that "the French supplied the Spanish with their own French made obusiers".
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/InfHistorica/ArtilleriadeMarina/8-obuseros.htm
 

 

Many thanks wefalck. 
The text it's from a translation since from the hardcover appeare that the book was published in London.
The rest of your information are much convinient with what I also tent to belive in my research.
However, it seems to me rather inaccurate for a Naval officer and in his "Memoir on the use of..." to reffer to his conclutions leaving ambiguities.!?
I would be much obliged if you can direct me to a source, for placing big guns on slides. 
Thank you
Thanasis

Thank you all again.
So to get back in the text, this is a part from the "Memoir on the use of shells , hot shot and carcass shells from ship artillery", by Frank Abney Hastings, captain of the Greek steam vessel of war, karteria. London 1828.
So, we have an experianced naval officer and also inventer of a 68pdr carronade form for "Karteria", who is exposed (for his knowledge) by publishing his memoir and sets queries.?
Why he uses the term "swivel" instead of "pivot".?
Why he describes a gun as 48pdr carronade, although there was not such a caliber for carronades at that time.?
Wasn't he able to recognise a gun from a carronade.?
What should I guess.
Thx

Well, first of all is the original text in Greek or in English? Perhaps these are just translation errors.
 
Today, we seem to be obsessed with 'correct' terminology (sometime perhaps to show-off, I gather ...), while in the old days tended to you terms much more casually (which arguably now causes problems for historians, of course). Perhaps, for the author in question the distinctive feature of a 'carronade' was that it was slide-mounted and not so much what the barrel looked like. Up to first quarter of the 19th century, indeed, a slide-mounted gun was virtually always a carronade and not a long gun.
 
It was about that time that people realised that guns above 32 pounds on 'free-wheeling' carriages are difficult to control and can be quite dangerous. In addition, small numbers of big guns on small ships are better deployed on slides, firing from the centre-lin of the ship, than moving them around to different gun-ports.

I'm beginning to suspect sloppy design and poor proofreading of this book. The descriptions are OK, but obviously the photos are placed incorrectly and belong elsewhere!

The image/caption will be swapped between that one (obviously a naval pattern gun (can't reliably estimate scale for identification, but it could be a 6pdr or 4pdr by indications from the grain of the timber in the carriage)) and another on the same spread which will be a carronade, labelled as this gun or a third affected caption.

TQM from Osprey.

What is the source for these photos. They are mislabeled. I would not trust them at all.  This one mentions a dispart sight on the muzzle which is not evident in the photo.
 
Regards,

Carronade usually refers to 5-8 calibre bores, with the breech end chambered and the muzzle (in later pieces) extended by a loading cup/flash-hider. True carronades are jointed, but a few trunnioned gunnades were made - and the free standing carriages were more flexible in use than the fixed slides/fighting bolts.

That said, the use of the term carronade is often extended to both Howitzers and the early Shell Guns, such as the 'Millars' 68pdr of 50cwt - and this had a proportion shorter or similar to that of a field gun (noticeably shorter than large naval guns typically are: (6ft 8.5", bore the full nominal length to the breech ring, gomer chambered on an 8.05" bore (62.7 Litres capacity) - this compares to the carronade (36cwt 5ft 2", including the muzzle cup and flash-hider with the chamber being cylindrical and also extending to the breech ring 46.1Litres capacity), and to the later "Full gun" of 95cwt 8.12" bore and a capacity of 96.6Litres.

While the shell gun was intended to fire hollow shot (unfilled shell) and shell, it did so with an 8lb powder charge, compared to the 5.6lb charge for the carronade (firing solid shot), and the 16lb powder charge of 68pdr gun.

A 42pdr carronade is usually assigned a weight of 22.5cwt, so this is approximately the proportion of this otherwise not recorded "48 pdr" - it should be charged with "around" 4lbs of powder (42pdr uses 3.5lbs). With the claimed overcharging there is no purpose... the increase in velocity predicted by Helie (1865/1884) is not for firing conditions within the 'scope' of the ordnance used to derive their prediction/model (and is likely overestimating velocity) but only shows a ~4% increase in velocity and a ~25-27% increase in recoil from a wastage of 73% of the powder used, plus a lot more risk from fire from unburnt or partially burnt power, and the charge extending well outside the chamber into the more lightly constructed bore is ... well ... not at all safe.