vaddoc

All done! I actually find making tree nails very therapeutic, calms (or numbs) the mind down.
No excuse now, back to the boat, although I feel like walking in the dark - not sure at all how these things were made. 
 
A final picture with the 4000+ nails - about 0.7 mm, very hard wood. If you ever go down this road, if you get a set up that works well just make as many as you can,

Ok, a quick update.
 
At this time, I have no idea how to built the rest of the boat. Unfortunately it will not be historically accurate but at least I ll have fun building it!
Now, today I sat to make a few thousand tree nails, I have to replace lots of screws and I ll need more as we go.
It actually went very well, a short video follows showing how fast they can be made with the needle method. This tree nails are about 0.7-0.8 mm, maybe about 1 cm long. This wood is cherry - very hard.
 
 
There must be about 1500 - 2000 nails there

When the sleeves for my drum sander arrive, I ll sand the back and release the nails. But I will sit tomorrow and make more, my set up is working well and I should take advantage of it.
 
Vaddoc

Dear friends
 
Time for another post, some progress but also some unfortunate findings. Lets start.
 
So, there is an urgent need for the boat to have some structural support but it needs to be built from the bottom up. So, the floor needs to be installed.
 
I had previously cut the floor supports but I found some were off and needed adjustments or replacement. Finally they were epoxied in place and coated with Tung oil - for no reason at all really!
 


However, It was then that I noticed a rather big issue. The planks have pulled away from the ribs, the glue in the tree nails failed - but also the pressure from the planks must have been pretty substantial.
 

I do not think this can be fixed without disassembling the boat and in the end of the day, it does not bother me much. So on we go.
 
Next, I did some work at the gunwales and attached the stringer and the breast hook.




So far everything is screwed, later on will be replaced with tree nails.
 
Next, it was time for the false stem to be installed. Again I had to make adjustments but I got a good fit. I used thickened epoxy and it came out pretty good. Especially the joint with the planking, which in the past had caused me headache, came out also fine.



Ok, so far so good. Next it was the floor boards. This took a bit of work and some head scratching but actually came out better than I hoped. I am not sure if it is historically accurate but we do need a floor to walk on - so here it is.

And with some Tung oil on




All the screws need to be replaced with tree nails, so time to make a few hundred. I will be using the last of the cherry wood I saved from the fire wood pile 10 years ago.

Cutting one more slice was difficult, this wood is very hard
 

This wood is very dry and needs to get some moisture before we can drill the nails out. The slices are now submerged in water.
 
Till next time
 
Vaddoc

All done! I actually find making tree nails very therapeutic, calms (or numbs) the mind down.
No excuse now, back to the boat, although I feel like walking in the dark - not sure at all how these things were made. 
 
A final picture with the 4000+ nails - about 0.7 mm, very hard wood. If you ever go down this road, if you get a set up that works well just make as many as you can,

All done! I actually find making tree nails very therapeutic, calms (or numbs) the mind down.
No excuse now, back to the boat, although I feel like walking in the dark - not sure at all how these things were made. 
 
A final picture with the 4000+ nails - about 0.7 mm, very hard wood. If you ever go down this road, if you get a set up that works well just make as many as you can,

This post is a continuation of a post in the Nautical/Naval History section of these forums:
https://modelshipworld.com/topic/34553-hms-victory-renovation-outer-planking-removed/
 
A visit to HMS Victory at Portsmouth added to my uncertainty in the making of gratings.  This led me to investigate the subject and I’m now posting my findings on MSW in case there’s something that someone else can take from them. As The Naval history forum is not the right place for this; I post it here where I think it probably belongs.
 
The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture, 1812 Edition, David Steel.
COAMINGS. The raised borders of oak about the edge of the hatches and scuttles, which prevent water from flowing down from the deck. The inside upper edge has a rabbet to receive the gratings.
 
GRATINGS. The lattice coverings of the hatchways, which are made with openings to admit air, or light, by cross battens and ledges. The openings should never be so large as to admit the heel of a man’s shoe, as they may otherwise endanger those who pass over them.
 
BATTENS. ….. Battens for gratings are narrow thin laths of Oak.
 
LEDGES. Oak or fir scantlings used in framing the decks, which are let into the carlings athwartships. The ledges for gratings are similar, but arch or round up agreeable to the head ledges.
 
HEAD-LEDGES.  The ‘thwartship pieces which frame the hatchways and ladders.
 
 
The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War 1600-1815, Brian Lavery.
‘Essentially a grating was made up of strips of timber running fore and aft, and others running athwartships across them. The thwartships timbers, known as ledges, were the deepest. In the early nineteenth century they were cut approximately 3in square in cross-section. Recesses were cut at suitable intervals, to take the battens which ran fore and aft. The battens were as broad as the ledges, but they were only about 3/4in deep, except for the outermost ones, which were deeper, for they gave strength to the structure, and fitted into the recess into the coaming. The grating curved upwards towards the centre line of the ship, as did the head ledge to which it was fitted. The spaces between the battens and ledges were roughly equal to their widths, but this was open to slight adjustment to allow the grating to fit into a specific space. Gratings were nearly always rectangular, except for the few oval ones fitted on the hatches above the steerage on some large ships of the late seventeenth century.’
Brian Lavery also shows photos of the main hatch of an NMM model of a 70-gun ship, c1730, which conforms with this description.
 
To summarise the above, deck grating battens run fore and aft, ledges athwartships, and the battens are cut into recesses on the ledges.
However, there does appear to be occasion where the grating location calls for battens to run athwartships, as in the Victory beakhead shown in the photos, below.
 
 
The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture, 1812 Edition, David Steel.
Table of Each Dimension or Scantling for the Upper Deck Gratings:

 
Summary of upper deck grating scantlings given in the table:
Ledges of ships 24-guns and up are 3in broad and 3 1/2in deep, and battens are 3in broad and 3/4in thick. For ships less than 24-guns ledges are 2 1/2in broad and 3in deep, and battens are 2 1/2in broad and 3/4in thick. For Denmark yachts ledges are 2in broad and 2 1/2in deep, and battens are 2in broad and 3/4in thick. For East India ships 818 tons to 1257 tons, West India ships 330 tons to 544 tons, and Packets of 201 tons, ledges are 2 1/2in broad and 3in deep, and battens are 2 1/2in broad and 3/4in thick. For Schooners of 133 tons, ledges are 2in broad and 3in deep, and battens are 2in broad and 5/8in thick. For brigs and sloops ledges are 2 1/2in broad and 3in deep, and battens are 1 1/4in broad and 1 1/4in thick.  
For other decks, grating scantlings will often differ.
 
 
Upper Deck Grating with Battens running fore and aft:

 
Middle Deck Grating with Battens running fore and aft:

 
Beakhead Grating with Battens running athwartship:

 

 

Even thicker, we know from Trafalgar that the riders on Victory were shot through and broke, as were the Wales and some knees.  This means you had to get through the outer skin, and frames to get to the rider
 
So we have the outer planking at 4 / 5”, the Wales at up to 11”, the frames at approximately 13”, the inner lining at 4”, and riders at least 14” but more often than not greater (upto 20”) depending on height above the waterline.
 
In summary anything from at least 32” to possibly over 40”.  The destructive force of solid shot doesn’t bare thinking about. 
 
Gary
 
 
 
 
 
 

Here are a couple of pics of the timbers in the hold. Unfortunately they are not the large cross-section that Gary (morgan) is talking about.
 
That's an incredible amount of timber to blast through, Gary.
 

 

Looking at the photo of Victory's planking above, it is incredible how thick the planks are. Considering the thickness of the frames and the inner planking, the hull sides must have been 2+ ft thick - solid wood. And still a cannon ball could penetrate.

Looking at the photo of Victory's planking above, it is incredible how thick the planks are. Considering the thickness of the frames and the inner planking, the hull sides must have been 2+ ft thick - solid wood. And still a cannon ball could penetrate.

All done! I actually find making tree nails very therapeutic, calms (or numbs) the mind down.
No excuse now, back to the boat, although I feel like walking in the dark - not sure at all how these things were made. 
 
A final picture with the 4000+ nails - about 0.7 mm, very hard wood. If you ever go down this road, if you get a set up that works well just make as many as you can,

Some progress and at last, a couple of nice photos to post!
 
I finished the pieces for the deck screwed things together, replaced with wooden nails, add reinforcing pieces underneath, glued everything together and sanded to 400 grit.

Then I had to decide whether to have black or light caulking. Admiral said black, so black it is! I masked the pieces, mixed black acrylic paint with Osmo filler and splashed it on.

Then removed tape and sanded everything smooth. The filler becomes light grey but with Tung oil will go ack to black.

Then I secured the grating with epoxy thickened with gypsum.

I also made a leg to support the deck using a drill sanding  against the disc sander - very fast results.

It does not look too bad! When I have time I ll glue everything together and move on


Regards
Vaddoc

Looking at the photo of Victory's planking above, it is incredible how thick the planks are. Considering the thickness of the frames and the inner planking, the hull sides must have been 2+ ft thick - solid wood. And still a cannon ball could penetrate.

All done! I actually find making tree nails very therapeutic, calms (or numbs) the mind down.
No excuse now, back to the boat, although I feel like walking in the dark - not sure at all how these things were made. 
 
A final picture with the 4000+ nails - about 0.7 mm, very hard wood. If you ever go down this road, if you get a set up that works well just make as many as you can,

Looking at the photo of Victory's planking above, it is incredible how thick the planks are. Considering the thickness of the frames and the inner planking, the hull sides must have been 2+ ft thick - solid wood. And still a cannon ball could penetrate.

All done! I actually find making tree nails very therapeutic, calms (or numbs) the mind down.
No excuse now, back to the boat, although I feel like walking in the dark - not sure at all how these things were made. 
 
A final picture with the 4000+ nails - about 0.7 mm, very hard wood. If you ever go down this road, if you get a set up that works well just make as many as you can,

Looking at the photo of Victory's planking above, it is incredible how thick the planks are. Considering the thickness of the frames and the inner planking, the hull sides must have been 2+ ft thick - solid wood. And still a cannon ball could penetrate.

All done! I actually find making tree nails very therapeutic, calms (or numbs) the mind down.
No excuse now, back to the boat, although I feel like walking in the dark - not sure at all how these things were made. 
 
A final picture with the 4000+ nails - about 0.7 mm, very hard wood. If you ever go down this road, if you get a set up that works well just make as many as you can,

I googled it, there are 121 million oak trees in the UK, with 1 million in London alone.
It needed 5000 oaks for Victory
The tree starts producing acorns after 40 years!
Oak trees - did you know? | Action Oak
 

The amount of wood in these boats is staggering. A floating forest. Thank you for the photos and the info, very interesting.

Ok, a quick update.
 
At this time, I have no idea how to built the rest of the boat. Unfortunately it will not be historically accurate but at least I ll have fun building it!
Now, today I sat to make a few thousand tree nails, I have to replace lots of screws and I ll need more as we go.
It actually went very well, a short video follows showing how fast they can be made with the needle method. This tree nails are about 0.7-0.8 mm, maybe about 1 cm long. This wood is cherry - very hard.
 
 
There must be about 1500 - 2000 nails there

When the sleeves for my drum sander arrive, I ll sand the back and release the nails. But I will sit tomorrow and make more, my set up is working well and I should take advantage of it.
 
Vaddoc

I googled it, there are 121 million oak trees in the UK, with 1 million in London alone.
It needed 5000 oaks for Victory
The tree starts producing acorns after 40 years!
Oak trees - did you know? | Action Oak
 

Ok, a quick update.
 
At this time, I have no idea how to built the rest of the boat. Unfortunately it will not be historically accurate but at least I ll have fun building it!
Now, today I sat to make a few thousand tree nails, I have to replace lots of screws and I ll need more as we go.
It actually went very well, a short video follows showing how fast they can be made with the needle method. This tree nails are about 0.7-0.8 mm, maybe about 1 cm long. This wood is cherry - very hard.
 
 
There must be about 1500 - 2000 nails there

When the sleeves for my drum sander arrive, I ll sand the back and release the nails. But I will sit tomorrow and make more, my set up is working well and I should take advantage of it.
 
Vaddoc

The amount of wood in these boats is staggering. A floating forest. Thank you for the photos and the info, very interesting.

The amount of wood in these boats is staggering. A floating forest. Thank you for the photos and the info, very interesting.