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Bob Cleek

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  1. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Bill97 in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    Thanks Ferrus. Oh I did not that on mine.  Have always rigged the foot ropes behind the sail. just noticed on this model that I have referred to several times there is this glaring inaccuracy. Can’t believe I had not noticed it before. 
     
    Thanks Henry and Marc for your comments a confirmation of my questions as always. 
  2. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Ferrus Manus in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    The model showing the footropes in front of the sail is incorrectly rigged. Do not do that on yours. Like Marc said, their presence on ships like the Soleil Royal is debatable. I would have excluded them entirely, but it's your model. I believe reef tackles, if they were even present on this kind of ship, would be behind the sail. I can tell that lines 1117/1118 are the reef tackles for the course. However, if i were rigging the ship, i would go with my gut and lead them inboard on the yard, behind the sail, and have them fall to the deck somewhere around the mast. 
  3. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to KeithAug in Cangarda 1901 by KeithAug - Scale 1:24 - Steam Yacht   
    Hmmm! you are probably right Phil - the admiral agrees with you!😬
    Unfortunately Bob I wasn't in a position to be able to study the surgical instruments. I'll ask what they use on my next visit.
     
    Possibly Tom but the set up time would probably be longer. My plan is to cut the slots using a home made table saw
    sled thus avoiding all the clamping that would be involved in using the mill.
    Thank you Nils.
  4. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Hubac's Historian in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    Foot-ropes should absolutely be behind the sails.  Whether they were even fully or partially present on French ships before the 1690s is a subject for debate.
  5. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to popeye2sea in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    I agree, however I am not sure that the reef tackle would run in front of the sail.  The hauling end would as you mentioned probably run inboard under the yard to a leading block and then down to the deck.
    Bunt lines also come down in front of the sail.
     
    Also, the diagram does not show the studdingsail rigging which is covered under another page of the instructions.
     
    Regards,
    Henry
  6. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to popeye2sea in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    And...the proper coil to use when you are hanging your unused gaskets from the yard is a - wait for it - gasket coil!
     
    Regards,
     
    Henry
  7. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Ian_Grant in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    Yes, 1121/1122 clew lines are definitely behind the sail. Leech lines run in front of the sail. Heller doesn't show where the course leech lines go; I would expect them to run through a block beneath the mast top and down to pin rails around the mast foot. Or does SR even have these?
     
    I say again that I'm not sure 1117/1118 are the reef tackles; it worries me that I see no labelled line running to the blocks e.g. e147 and e148 used to haul up the heads of the stu'nsls. I would have expected reef tackles to pass through a block near the mast thence down to pin rails near the mast.
     
    Then again I've made zero ships from this century.
  8. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Ian_Grant in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    Blue are your leech lines which gather in the leeches (sides) of the sails when furling. I'm having trouble deciding from the diagram what purple are. I think 1031 are the braces, in which case the purple seem to be the reef tackles hauling the leeches (edges) of the sail up via the blocks attached at the level of the reef band as discussed earlier; or possibly for the stuns'ls in which case I don't see where the reef tackle line goes. Hmmm.
     
    The two dotted lines ending at the foot of the mainsail are the bunt lines. The upper sails seem to have no bunt lines probably because they are reduced by lowering their yards, not by being pulled up like the mainsail. I'm surprised the topsail has no reef tackle shown. Leads me to wonder if only the course sails had reefs???
     
    According to Anderson, reef tackle were used on lower sails as an alternative to bonnets from the 13th century to early in the 16th century when they disappeared; reefs appeared in topsails in roughly 1655; topsail reef tackles are first documented in 1675; Anderson would hesitate to show topsail reef tackles before 1670.
     
    I can't remember (again) which SR in which year consensus has placed the Heller model. Modeller's initiative on reefs I guess.
     
     
  9. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Hubac's Historian in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    Excellent point for newer modelers contemplating modeling sails to consider! It's not enough to just pick a few sails to attach flying because you like how they look. To achieve the desired illusion of reality in miniature the sails must be set and drawing as they woud have been if the ship were on a particular point of sail in a particular weather condition. Square rigged ships rarely, if ever, flew all their sails at the same time. Consulting photographs (not necessarily paintings or drawings, which can contain errors due to "artistic license") of similarly rigged ships under sail is an excellent resource. Google Images is your friend!
  10. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Hubac's Historian in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    Yes. At 1/8" to the foot, things start getting rather small sometimes. For this reason, rigging details are sometimes "abbreviated," which is to say, omitted. If you are going to put sails on a model, though, assuming you are committed to accuracy, most all of the items you've listed should, in my opinion, be portrayed. All would require rather fine thread, but nothing that would be particularly difficult to obtain. You would probably want to forego spinning your own scale rope because it would have to be so small. 
     
    Nautical nomenclature is indeed a foreign language for most. As far as foreign languages go, it's fairly easy to master because the words and pronunciations are in English. It's only when you run into one of the older foreign made kits that you start having to learn all the terms again in French, Spanish, or Italian. That can be really crazy-making. Some of us were fortunate enough to grow up on and about ships and boats and picked up the "lingo" as we went along. Even then, fluency is difficult to attain because the names change at different times and places. "Different ships, different long splices." as the saying goes. It's actually much easier if you have a conversational use for a language and can "learn by doing," rather than by trying to memorize words in a vacuum. That said, modelers who stay with the hobby any length of time inevitably build research and reference libraries that are essential to more advanced modeling. If you posted an inquiry in an appropriate section of the forum (don't ask me which one!) asking for suggestions on basic reference books one should require, I'm sure you'd get a lot of suggestions. Keep in mind that the subject spans several centuries, so one has to acquire reference works for each of the periods relevant to the models they are building. Le Soleil Royal was French and built in 1668 and launched in 1670. She was then placed in ordinary (laid up unused) until recommissioned twenty years or so later in 1690 and burned in battle by fireships in 1692. You should probably decide at which point you want to portray her. When she was just built and launched or during her short two-year "working life." That means you'll have to research what she looked like at that time. One would hope that a kit would have made that choice for you or at least given you options and relevant details, but in the case of this kit, I have no idea if the plans do. The years this ship was afloat are at the beginning of what might be considered the reliable recorded history of sailing ships when the drafting of plans came into practice, construction started becoming standardized (in warships, at least,) and designs started "getting scientific." So, in this case, you'd have to find reference works that cover early French ships of the line of the time you are modeling. I don't have any detailed experience with late Seventeenth Century French warships, but I'd expect reference books written in English may be somewhat hard to find. There are some very fine works on French warships which have been translated to English, but, as I recall, they address Eighteenth Century French warships. In contrast, English reference works are plentiful compared to the French and Spanish naval fleets of the period and the rigging details of the warships of different nations are quite similar, but a "knowledgeable eye" (which I don't have in this instance) will quickly notice the inconsistency of English rigging and construction details on models of foreign ships. As you probably know, and I just learned, there is a highly detailed near-1/4" to the foot model of Le Soleil Royal built in 1839 which is nearly contemporary to the vessel itself, or at least soon enough that there must have been those who knew her firsthand still living at the time. The Wikipedia entry for Le Soliel Royal has some pictures of this model in the French National Maritime Museum in Paris and this model is probably the best source of information available at this time. (Which is why the manufacturer of your kit picked this vessel as a subject and based the kit on this model.) You'd probably want to acquire any reference books that contain plans of the vessel or photographs of the model. There may be some available from the French National Maritime Museum.
     
    The list of various ship modeling reference works is huge, but off the top of my head, if you haven't already, I would suggest you obtain copies of the following classic reference books. Fortunately for you, they have all now been reprinted in trade paperback format and are quite inexpensive. Prior to that, there was a time when they were scarce and expensive hardcover out-of-print "unicorns." 
     
    The Rigging of Ships: in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast, 1600-1720 by R.C. Anderson (Dover Maritime Press - paperback reprint.) This one does cover both English and French ships of the line.  The Rigging of Ships: in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast, 1600-1720 (Dover Maritime): Anderson, R. C.: 9780486279602: Amazon.com: Books
     
    The Art of Rigging by George Biddlecombe (Dover Maritime Press - paperback reprint.) Originally written in 1848, this book contains an excellent glossary of all the English terms and phrases used in rigging sailing ships of the line and is profusely illustrated. It also contains what Biddlecombe called "the progressive method of rigging ships" which is a logical sequence of rigging complex sailing rigs. This method is helpful for preventing you from "stringing yourself into a corner," as it were, by installing the various rigging elements in a logical specific order.  The Art of Rigging (Dover Maritime): Biddlecombe, George: 9780486263434: Amazon.com: Books
     
    Rigging Period Ship Models: A Step-by-Step Guide to the Intricacies of Square Rig by Lennarth Petersson (Seaforth Publishing) Hardcover and paperback. This book is basically a collection of clear drawings of rigging details with a brief explanation. It has met with slight criticism regarding a few errors, but it is written for ship modelers for use in "looking up" what a particular rigging detail looks like and it is generally very well received by modelers using it for this purpose. The author has also written a companion volume addressing the rigging details of fore-and-aft rigged vessels. I consider it a "Field Guide to British and North American Sailing Ship Rigging."
     
    The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea (The Oxford Reference Collection) 2nd Edition C.B. Dear and Peter Kemp, Editors. Published by that Oxford, the university, which famously publishes the Oxford Dictionary of the English Language ("The OED"), this is a very scholarly dictionary/encyclopedia of all nautical terms. First published in 1976, the second edition published in 2006 added a lot of content on oceanography, marine archaeology, and marine biology developments since the first edition's publishing. It's basically the nautical segment of the OED, the authoritative standard dictionary of the English language. It's got darn near everything you can think of in it. It is now available in both hardcover and paperback. If money is tight, a used copy of the first edition which I've been using since its first printing continues to prove entirely adequate for my  modeling and nautical technical writing purposes. Amazon.com: The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea (The Oxford Reference Collection): 9780198800507: Dear, I. C. B, Kemp, Peter: Books
     
    Between these four books, you should be able to look up and find a written description of any rigging detail you might encounter in a period ship model along with a clear picture or diagram of it and the definition of any nautical term you might ever encounter. There are plenty of copies of all of these books on the used market, making them quite affordable. If you shop around by checking Amazon and eBay for used copies in good condition, you may be able to acquire all four for less than a Benjamin. 
     
    The more you read, the more you'll learn! Like many of us, you may find doing the research as fascinating as building the models.
     
     
  11. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Hubac's Historian in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    Yes, as shown in the second picture. This is the way the sails are hung in order to dry them before furling when they won't be used for a period of time, whether they will then be "sent down" and stowed, or furled on the yard. The pictures show the way sails are dealt with when the ship is not sailing and the sails are not drawing. It was necessary to dry them before such storage in order to prevent mold and rot deterioration to the sails. If you intend to display the model with sails "set and drawing" as if the vessel were sailing, you have a much more involved task, since the sails will have to be formed to be "full" and all rigging set up to correctly portray the angles of the yards given whatever point of sail you want to show that the vessel is on (i.e. the direction from which the wind is blowing) and the model should be mounted at the  proper angle of heel, if not sailing directly downwind. That portrayal is generally considered to require a few figures on board attending to the tasks required to sail the vessel to provide realistic detail. Such "sailing" presentations are usually seen on "waterline" models mounted on a molded "sea" base with appropriate bow waves and such.
  12. Wow!
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Hubac's Historian in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    To put a bit finer point on it, the purpose of reef tackles is not to "pull the sail up when the wind is blowing." The reef tackles are attached to the garnets on the leeches of a square sail at the reef bands for the purpose of pulling the garnets of the "new" head of the reefed sail, i.e. the ends of the reef band, tautly out to the ends of the yard from which the sail is hung. This is done prior to tying the reef lines, which serve to gather up the surplus canvas created by the reef. The reef points also serve to secure the new "head" of the sail created by the reef tackles stretching the reef band to the ends of the yard to the yard itself.  While the reef tackles do haul the reef band upward and outward on the yard, gathering the reefed sail up isn't their primary purpose.  When reefing, first the buntlines are used to haul up the body of the sail to the yard, while the sheets are tailed from the deck to keep the clews under control, so the sailors aloft on the yard can attach the reef tackles to the garnets on the sail's leeches, haul the reef band tight along the yard, and then tie off the reef points.
     
    Without the buntlines hauling the body of the sail up to the yard, the sailors would in most instances never be able to reach the garnets at the reef bands on the sail in order to attach the reef tackles!
     
    The reef tackles attach to the garnets on the leeches at each reef band. There is just one reef tackle for each leech, port and starboard, and it is moved to the appropriate reef band when a reef is taken in. To take a second reef, the sheets would be cast off and tailed by deck crew to better control the sail during the reefing evolution, the buntlines would be used to haul up the foot of the sail so that the reef tackles could be removed from the first reef band and attached to the second reef band and the new "head" of the sail at the second reef band stretched tightly between the ends of the spar. The reef points on the first reef are left in place where they continue to secure the surplus canvas created by the first reef to the yard. The reef points on the second reef band would then be tied off around both the previously tied-in reef with its reef points left tied, and the surplus canvas created by the latest reef to secure at the same time both the  first and the second reef to the yard. The buntlines would then be slackened, and the clews of the sail sheeted to set the sail. 
     
    To "shake out" a reef, the process was simply the opposite: The reef tackles were cast off the leeches and generally secured beneath the yard, perhaps attached to the head cringles on each side, although the head would be secured to the yard or jackstay separately and remain so unless the sail were to be removed from the yard. The reef points would be untied, and the sail let fall, or the reef be "shaken out," and the sheets hauled to set the filled sail. Note, however, that if only the most recent of multiple reefs taken was to be shaken out, the reef tackles would be moved to the reef tied in immediately previous to the one being shaken out the clew garnets of the previous reef hauled tightly outboard, rather than securing the reef tackles beneath the yard. In this fashion, when the reef points of the most recently taken reef were cast off and the buntlines slacked, the sail was set, reefed, and ready to be trimmed without any further attention to the preceding reef.
     
    There was no problem identifying the reef points of each reef because the latter reef's points are obviously the ones tied over the former reef's points. (Depending upon the size of the sail, the length of a square sail's reef points may vary, with the reef points on the second, and third, if there is one, reef band(s)' points being longer than its predecessors to accommodate the greater volume of gathered canvas it must secure. This detail is very rarely seen in modern models and perhaps is dependent upon the period. I can't say for sure.) 
     
    If the sails were to be dried (often in port), they were frequently loosely gathered up by the buntlines and their clews triced up to the center of the yard to keep the clews from flailing about (or the sails filling if the wind kicked up and the ship sailing off on its own!) This practice is seen in many period photographs. 
     
    Cutty Sark with crew aloft in the process of setting sails to dry in port. Note the fore and mizzen courses with their buntlines brailing up the leeches. Note the crew at the ends of the foretopsail yard apparently in the process of securing the clews to the center of the yard. What that looks like when completed is seen in the second photo below.

     
    When the job is finished, it will look something like this if done "shipshape and Bristol-fashion:"

    When a sail is stowed furled on a yard, whether with a reef or more already tied in, or without any reefs tied in, the sail is secured with gaskets which work much like reef points, but are not permanently connected to the sail. Rather gaskets live attached to the yard or jackstay and when in use they are tied all around the yard and gather the sail at points as required along the length of the spar in the same manner as reef points. However, as gaskets must circle the entire sail and spar (unless tied through a jackstay,) often with more than a single turn taken (unlike reef points,) they must be considerably longer than reef points and when not in use are coiled and left hanging from the yard (or jackstay.) I am not certain whether this practice is applicable to all periods, though. In earlier periods, the gaskets may have been sent aloft with the topmen when needed. One would have to do further research on that one, but if you are shooting for building a "hundred pointer." details like properly coiled and hung gaskets are not to me overlooked!  
     
    This video better illustrates the use of the sail gaskets and provides a good idea of how a life-size square yard looks and works:
     
     
  13. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Ferrus Manus in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    Excellent point for newer modelers contemplating modeling sails to consider! It's not enough to just pick a few sails to attach flying because you like how they look. To achieve the desired illusion of reality in miniature the sails must be set and drawing as they woud have been if the ship were on a particular point of sail in a particular weather condition. Square rigged ships rarely, if ever, flew all their sails at the same time. Consulting photographs (not necessarily paintings or drawings, which can contain errors due to "artistic license") of similarly rigged ships under sail is an excellent resource. Google Images is your friend!
  14. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Ferrus Manus in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    If you want to reef, you would want to reef the main. Having the fore open to the wind would, if i understand correctly, lead to better sailing characteristics. That's why clippers didn't have lower stuns'ls on the main or mizzen. 
  15. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Bill97 in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    Thanks Bob. This is very informative. Appreciate it. 
  16. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Dr PR in Stepping the mast with a plum bob...two questions.   
    DO NOT GLUE THE MASTS IN PLACE! After the shrouds and stays are added the masts cannot go anywhere.
     
    Careful about using the "waterline level" idea. This assumes the waterline is actually in the correct position. If for some reason it is a bit lower on one side than the other,and you "level" the waterline, then your mast will not be perpendicular to the deck (from side to side) and this will be VERY obvious when you look at the model.
     
    You want to get the deck level - as John Ruy shows in his photos. If the model has bulwarks, and IF your bulwark cap rails are the same height above the deck on either side of the mast, you can use the tops of the rails as a reference and level them.
     
    I place something across the bulwarks and behind the mast as my horizontal reference. Then I use an ordinary right angle drafting square placed on the horizontal piece to align the mast. This method does not require the hull to be "level" in any orientation. The mast is positioned relative to the hull, and not relative to the Earth.
     
    The plum bob will work IFF your deck is horizontal relative to the Earth - hence the spirit level in John's photo.
     
    ****
     
    It is a bit late to be thinking about stepping the masts when you get to the point you want to start rigging. That should have been done while the hull and deck were being constructed. I show a technique in this post for setting the fore-aft rake and positioning the mast vertical port-starboard.
     
    https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=599087
     
    I am just getting to the point I want to step the masts and start rigging. When I temporarily install the masts they are still perfectly vertical and have the desired rake.
     
    However, experience tells me that I can bend the masts from side to side while installing the shrouds and stays. So I will have to be careful and used the actual procedure for installing them, starting on the starboard side for one line/set, then on the port side for the next, back to starboard for the third, etc. The first few stays and shrouds are important. After you get them rigged without bending the mast they will stiffen the structure and resist further bending.
     
    BUT IF YOU SET THE SHROUDS/STAYS TO BEND THE MAST YOU WILL HAVE TO REMOVE THEM ALL AND START OVER.
     
  17. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to wmherbert in Stepping the mast with a plum bob...two questions.   
    I first use an adjustable square . I place it on the plans to get the proper rake. Then I place the model on a flat level surface and adjust so boat is level side to side and waterline is level. Then I place the adjustable level along side the model and sight its edge and line up the mast fore and aft.
    Then a big carpenter's square (18×24 inches) I place directly in front on the boat and sight back along its edge to line up the mast. I have a jig that I made to steady the mast and hold it in position. I can slide the boat fore and aft and side to side to move the mast until everything lines up. 
    Doesn't take that long and I think it gets it as good as is possible.
    Bill
  18. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to dvm27 in Stepping the mast with a plum bob...two questions.   
    At the risk of sounding hieratical I would suggest not gluing the mast to the step. If, for some reason the ship is ever rerigged or part of the mast breaks, being able to remove it makes this very easy. As an example look at Olha's conservation of the HMS Boreas (YouTube). Assuming the foot of the mast is fitted loosely into some sort of step the standing rigging will keep the masts perfectly positioned once the laniards are reeved and tensioned. An additional advantage is that some adjustments are still possible in the mast position if warpage occurs in the months it takes to complete the rigging process. 
  19. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to John Ruy in Stepping the mast with a plum bob...two questions.   
    I hear ya…. Your Plumb Bob idea works great. 
    If you look closely the Fore Mast is not Plumb. Using this method I did tighten up the port side shrouds and brought the mast up straighter. Slight adjustment over the eye ball 👁️. 

    Rake can be measured as well. 🤪
     
    Depends how much you want to “worry” about it and will it change as the model ages (probably). LOL 😆 

     
     
  20. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from AJohnson in Stepping the mast with a plum bob...two questions.   
    A plumb bob would be a huge PIA to try to use for this purpose. It will get in the way and you'll probably knock it around trying to measure the angle off of vertical while it's hanging there. 
     
    John is 100% right that, for several good reasons, you don't want to glue your mast rigidly in place. It is best to use your rigging to adjust the angle of the masts as is done in real life. How this is done depends upon the construction of your model. If your hull is a solid block, you're going to have to drill a hole, a bit larger than the heel of your mast and (hopefully) at the angle necessary. If your hull is hollow, you'll have to deal with however that hull is designed to hold the mast. For your purposes, you want a loose fit. 
     
    To set up your mast, you must have your hull positioned dead level on its waterline in all directions. Note that some lines are drawn with the bottom of the keel parallel to the baseline and others not. You need to measure the rake of the mast on the plan using a level waterline as your point of reference. With your hull perfectly level on its waterline, build yourself a card stock jig against which you can compare your mast's positioning. Think "carpenter's or machinist's square with a fixed angle matching your mast rake, or a fancy "double ended" one with one side of the "arm" at a right angle and the other side cut to the angle of your mast rake. (Get out your Martha Stewart hot melt glue gun for this job. ) Select a convenient flat physical reference point on your hull. Usually, there will be a space from rail to rail where a flat base for such a jig can be laid. If you are using a building board and can mount your hull on an even keel with its waterline parallel to the building board, you can also build a reference jig which stands on the level building board, possibly straddling your hull. In this fashion, you can compare your angles "from the top down rather than the bottom up.") To build a cardstock jig, just erect from a flat reference base a perfectly perpendicular "fin" running fore and aft relative to your hull to form a "T" section. Use bracing triangles at the joints if you have to make it rigid, but you want this "fin" to stand perfectly plumb on your perfectly flat base that is perfectly parallel to the hull's waterline. The forward edge of this "fin" should be cut to the same angle as the mast as shown on the plans.  The aft edge of this "fin" should be perfectly perpendicular to the base. The perpendicular edge will serve as your reference right angle for the mast's fore and aft perpendicularity and its angled edge will serve as your reference for your mast's rake.
     
    When you duplicate the mast rake angle from the plans, be sure to measure it from the center of the mast! Because the mast will usually be tapered, if you measure your rake angle from the outside edge of the mast section drawing, it will be wrong because of the error created by the additional taper angle of the mast. When you use this jig to set the angle of your mast, again take notice of matching the angle of your jig to the center of your mast. I suppose you could just measure the rake angle on the plans from the edge of the section drawing of the mast and then just compare that angle of the side of the tapered mast to your tapered mast and get the same result, except that the opportunity for error seems greater in the latter approach.  
     
    There are a few ways to adjust your mast using your jig.
     
    The most obvious is to adjust your mast by using your standing rigging as it is done in real life. One uses the stays to adjust for rake and the shrouds to adjust for perpendicularity port and starboard. This is primarily done by taking up on the deadeyes and headstay and backstay lashings. This process will be necessary in any event if your rigging is to be properly taut and not hanging slack, but it's often difficult to accomplish in practice without the mast being fairly rigidly oriented as you would wish to begin with. For that reason, I advise leaving your rigging slack and using one of the following methods to orient the mast somewhat rigidly first, and then take up the slack in your rigging. 
     
    One way to secure your mast independent of the rigging is to adjust the angle of the mast at the mast step and mast partners at the deck by using the mast step as the fulcrum and placing wedges or shims between the partners (or hole in your deck or solid hull... whatever)) to adjust the orientation of the mast. 
     
    Another less tedious way to do this is to use a malleable material such as soft wax or modeling clay packed between the side of the mast and the mast partners. This will allow you to position your mast by moving it, with the malleable material repositioning itself to accommodate the mast's movement, while still holding it in position after it's moved. I would not advise using a "malleable material" which will harden over time if it is going to make it difficult to remove the mast if that is ever necessary for servicing or repairs.  I suggest that the non-hardening "malleable material" be supplemented or replaced by wedges or shims to ensure greater rigidity once the mast is properly oriented. After the mast is properly oriented, the slack in the standing rigging can be taken up. Be careful not to overdo the tightening, though. You don't want to pull the mast out of its proper position. 
     
    Don't forget as well that sometimes the mast rake isn't the same in each of a vessel's masts. Check the rake of each mast independently to be sure. It may be off only slightly, but it may make a significant difference in the appearance of the model. Also remember that the longer the mast, the greater the distance of movement at the far end when adjusting it. Keep in mind that it only takes a very small bit of movement at the partners of a mainmast to move its topmast truck a noticeable amount. If you are only setting up a "baldheaded" mainmast, it can look fine, but be noticeably out of whack later after you've rigged all the tophamper! 
     
    You can come very close but understand that you'll probably never get it perfect. Few, if any full-scale ships can say their masts are perfectly oriented and sailing ships are meant to pitch and heel in a sea, anyway, so who's going to know the difference? The inexact positioning of a mast is but one of the factors which virtually guarantees that every sailing vessel will always be faster to windward on one tack than on the other.  

  21. Thanks!
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from HardeeHarHar in Stepping the mast with a plum bob...two questions.   
    A plumb bob would be a huge PIA to try to use for this purpose. It will get in the way and you'll probably knock it around trying to measure the angle off of vertical while it's hanging there. 
     
    John is 100% right that, for several good reasons, you don't want to glue your mast rigidly in place. It is best to use your rigging to adjust the angle of the masts as is done in real life. How this is done depends upon the construction of your model. If your hull is a solid block, you're going to have to drill a hole, a bit larger than the heel of your mast and (hopefully) at the angle necessary. If your hull is hollow, you'll have to deal with however that hull is designed to hold the mast. For your purposes, you want a loose fit. 
     
    To set up your mast, you must have your hull positioned dead level on its waterline in all directions. Note that some lines are drawn with the bottom of the keel parallel to the baseline and others not. You need to measure the rake of the mast on the plan using a level waterline as your point of reference. With your hull perfectly level on its waterline, build yourself a card stock jig against which you can compare your mast's positioning. Think "carpenter's or machinist's square with a fixed angle matching your mast rake, or a fancy "double ended" one with one side of the "arm" at a right angle and the other side cut to the angle of your mast rake. (Get out your Martha Stewart hot melt glue gun for this job. ) Select a convenient flat physical reference point on your hull. Usually, there will be a space from rail to rail where a flat base for such a jig can be laid. If you are using a building board and can mount your hull on an even keel with its waterline parallel to the building board, you can also build a reference jig which stands on the level building board, possibly straddling your hull. In this fashion, you can compare your angles "from the top down rather than the bottom up.") To build a cardstock jig, just erect from a flat reference base a perfectly perpendicular "fin" running fore and aft relative to your hull to form a "T" section. Use bracing triangles at the joints if you have to make it rigid, but you want this "fin" to stand perfectly plumb on your perfectly flat base that is perfectly parallel to the hull's waterline. The forward edge of this "fin" should be cut to the same angle as the mast as shown on the plans.  The aft edge of this "fin" should be perfectly perpendicular to the base. The perpendicular edge will serve as your reference right angle for the mast's fore and aft perpendicularity and its angled edge will serve as your reference for your mast's rake.
     
    When you duplicate the mast rake angle from the plans, be sure to measure it from the center of the mast! Because the mast will usually be tapered, if you measure your rake angle from the outside edge of the mast section drawing, it will be wrong because of the error created by the additional taper angle of the mast. When you use this jig to set the angle of your mast, again take notice of matching the angle of your jig to the center of your mast. I suppose you could just measure the rake angle on the plans from the edge of the section drawing of the mast and then just compare that angle of the side of the tapered mast to your tapered mast and get the same result, except that the opportunity for error seems greater in the latter approach.  
     
    There are a few ways to adjust your mast using your jig.
     
    The most obvious is to adjust your mast by using your standing rigging as it is done in real life. One uses the stays to adjust for rake and the shrouds to adjust for perpendicularity port and starboard. This is primarily done by taking up on the deadeyes and headstay and backstay lashings. This process will be necessary in any event if your rigging is to be properly taut and not hanging slack, but it's often difficult to accomplish in practice without the mast being fairly rigidly oriented as you would wish to begin with. For that reason, I advise leaving your rigging slack and using one of the following methods to orient the mast somewhat rigidly first, and then take up the slack in your rigging. 
     
    One way to secure your mast independent of the rigging is to adjust the angle of the mast at the mast step and mast partners at the deck by using the mast step as the fulcrum and placing wedges or shims between the partners (or hole in your deck or solid hull... whatever)) to adjust the orientation of the mast. 
     
    Another less tedious way to do this is to use a malleable material such as soft wax or modeling clay packed between the side of the mast and the mast partners. This will allow you to position your mast by moving it, with the malleable material repositioning itself to accommodate the mast's movement, while still holding it in position after it's moved. I would not advise using a "malleable material" which will harden over time if it is going to make it difficult to remove the mast if that is ever necessary for servicing or repairs.  I suggest that the non-hardening "malleable material" be supplemented or replaced by wedges or shims to ensure greater rigidity once the mast is properly oriented. After the mast is properly oriented, the slack in the standing rigging can be taken up. Be careful not to overdo the tightening, though. You don't want to pull the mast out of its proper position. 
     
    Don't forget as well that sometimes the mast rake isn't the same in each of a vessel's masts. Check the rake of each mast independently to be sure. It may be off only slightly, but it may make a significant difference in the appearance of the model. Also remember that the longer the mast, the greater the distance of movement at the far end when adjusting it. Keep in mind that it only takes a very small bit of movement at the partners of a mainmast to move its topmast truck a noticeable amount. If you are only setting up a "baldheaded" mainmast, it can look fine, but be noticeably out of whack later after you've rigged all the tophamper! 
     
    You can come very close but understand that you'll probably never get it perfect. Few, if any full-scale ships can say their masts are perfectly oriented and sailing ships are meant to pitch and heel in a sea, anyway, so who's going to know the difference? The inexact positioning of a mast is but one of the factors which virtually guarantees that every sailing vessel will always be faster to windward on one tack than on the other.  

  22. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from John Ruy in Stepping the mast with a plum bob...two questions.   
    A plumb bob would be a huge PIA to try to use for this purpose. It will get in the way and you'll probably knock it around trying to measure the angle off of vertical while it's hanging there. 
     
    John is 100% right that, for several good reasons, you don't want to glue your mast rigidly in place. It is best to use your rigging to adjust the angle of the masts as is done in real life. How this is done depends upon the construction of your model. If your hull is a solid block, you're going to have to drill a hole, a bit larger than the heel of your mast and (hopefully) at the angle necessary. If your hull is hollow, you'll have to deal with however that hull is designed to hold the mast. For your purposes, you want a loose fit. 
     
    To set up your mast, you must have your hull positioned dead level on its waterline in all directions. Note that some lines are drawn with the bottom of the keel parallel to the baseline and others not. You need to measure the rake of the mast on the plan using a level waterline as your point of reference. With your hull perfectly level on its waterline, build yourself a card stock jig against which you can compare your mast's positioning. Think "carpenter's or machinist's square with a fixed angle matching your mast rake, or a fancy "double ended" one with one side of the "arm" at a right angle and the other side cut to the angle of your mast rake. (Get out your Martha Stewart hot melt glue gun for this job. ) Select a convenient flat physical reference point on your hull. Usually, there will be a space from rail to rail where a flat base for such a jig can be laid. If you are using a building board and can mount your hull on an even keel with its waterline parallel to the building board, you can also build a reference jig which stands on the level building board, possibly straddling your hull. In this fashion, you can compare your angles "from the top down rather than the bottom up.") To build a cardstock jig, just erect from a flat reference base a perfectly perpendicular "fin" running fore and aft relative to your hull to form a "T" section. Use bracing triangles at the joints if you have to make it rigid, but you want this "fin" to stand perfectly plumb on your perfectly flat base that is perfectly parallel to the hull's waterline. The forward edge of this "fin" should be cut to the same angle as the mast as shown on the plans.  The aft edge of this "fin" should be perfectly perpendicular to the base. The perpendicular edge will serve as your reference right angle for the mast's fore and aft perpendicularity and its angled edge will serve as your reference for your mast's rake.
     
    When you duplicate the mast rake angle from the plans, be sure to measure it from the center of the mast! Because the mast will usually be tapered, if you measure your rake angle from the outside edge of the mast section drawing, it will be wrong because of the error created by the additional taper angle of the mast. When you use this jig to set the angle of your mast, again take notice of matching the angle of your jig to the center of your mast. I suppose you could just measure the rake angle on the plans from the edge of the section drawing of the mast and then just compare that angle of the side of the tapered mast to your tapered mast and get the same result, except that the opportunity for error seems greater in the latter approach.  
     
    There are a few ways to adjust your mast using your jig.
     
    The most obvious is to adjust your mast by using your standing rigging as it is done in real life. One uses the stays to adjust for rake and the shrouds to adjust for perpendicularity port and starboard. This is primarily done by taking up on the deadeyes and headstay and backstay lashings. This process will be necessary in any event if your rigging is to be properly taut and not hanging slack, but it's often difficult to accomplish in practice without the mast being fairly rigidly oriented as you would wish to begin with. For that reason, I advise leaving your rigging slack and using one of the following methods to orient the mast somewhat rigidly first, and then take up the slack in your rigging. 
     
    One way to secure your mast independent of the rigging is to adjust the angle of the mast at the mast step and mast partners at the deck by using the mast step as the fulcrum and placing wedges or shims between the partners (or hole in your deck or solid hull... whatever)) to adjust the orientation of the mast. 
     
    Another less tedious way to do this is to use a malleable material such as soft wax or modeling clay packed between the side of the mast and the mast partners. This will allow you to position your mast by moving it, with the malleable material repositioning itself to accommodate the mast's movement, while still holding it in position after it's moved. I would not advise using a "malleable material" which will harden over time if it is going to make it difficult to remove the mast if that is ever necessary for servicing or repairs.  I suggest that the non-hardening "malleable material" be supplemented or replaced by wedges or shims to ensure greater rigidity once the mast is properly oriented. After the mast is properly oriented, the slack in the standing rigging can be taken up. Be careful not to overdo the tightening, though. You don't want to pull the mast out of its proper position. 
     
    Don't forget as well that sometimes the mast rake isn't the same in each of a vessel's masts. Check the rake of each mast independently to be sure. It may be off only slightly, but it may make a significant difference in the appearance of the model. Also remember that the longer the mast, the greater the distance of movement at the far end when adjusting it. Keep in mind that it only takes a very small bit of movement at the partners of a mainmast to move its topmast truck a noticeable amount. If you are only setting up a "baldheaded" mainmast, it can look fine, but be noticeably out of whack later after you've rigged all the tophamper! 
     
    You can come very close but understand that you'll probably never get it perfect. Few, if any full-scale ships can say their masts are perfectly oriented and sailing ships are meant to pitch and heel in a sea, anyway, so who's going to know the difference? The inexact positioning of a mast is but one of the factors which virtually guarantees that every sailing vessel will always be faster to windward on one tack than on the other.  

  23. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to AJohnson in Stepping the mast with a plum bob...two questions.   
    Hi Brian, ashamed to admit I just use pva glue and eyeball it! 👀
    That said I think the Mk.1 eyeball is pretty good, we can all spot a wonky picture frame 🖼️  🤣
  24. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to John Ruy in Stepping the mast with a plum bob...two questions.   
    Hi Brian,
     
    Often had that worry myself, eyeballing it just isn’t good enough as I improve my  skills. I like the plumb bob idea 💡 sounds like it should work. I’m working my Bluenose Main Shrouds right now and I’ll give it a go. 
     
    As for gluing in the masts, it was recommended to me (bluejacket instructions) to not glue in your masts and let the standing rigging do its job to hold everything in proper alignment. This way down the line when your historic model needs restoration the masts can be removed. That said the mast alignment is left up to your tensioning of the shrouds and standing rigging. This is where I think your plumb bob idea will come into play, you should be able to calculate the required rake as well. Just hang the plumb bob from the aft of the trestle tree and use your best geometry. Of course we will have to be sure the deck is leveled up. 
     
    cheers 🍻 
    John
     
     
  25. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to kirill4 in Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100   
    perhaps an easier option would be to install the sails on the yards in advance, with all their running rigging, and then install the yards with the sails in place and move the running rigging in places... due to the abundance of running rigging, in my opinion of course, it will be fantastically difficult to install  sails on already installed yards...
    however, I wish you successful overcoming of difficulties if such appear on the horizon, and completion of construction
     
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