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Bob Cleek

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  1. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Scottish Guy in Do I need thes books, or just want them?   
    Indeed it is available in the US but still not available for me lol
     

     
    It seems sometimes a bit odd that in a "global" world there are still restrictions, despite the cost of postage and customs, to send items around the world. I found this many times with US items but since Brexit more and more often also with European items. I also collect model cars / diecast models (especially Ford CVN in various police versions) but nowadays (since the 2000s most US shops don´t send them over anymore - before that they often sent them even for really low prices but postage took up to 6 weeks).
     
    So far about "global" world, we are growing closer...
  2. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Do I need thes books, or just want them?   
    Sorry for the confusion. I was in the middle of an edit, so you caught only the beginning of the post.
     
    Check out the link I provided above to the U.S. Amazon and eBay websites and you'll see they are both offering new and used copies. Beyond that, I expect the cost of shipping is prohibitive. We keep hearing that in recent times on all sorts of modeling essentials. The cost of an item on the opposite side of the Pond seems to almost double when the shipping is added. We have U.K. books listed on U.S. eBay, so I'm not sure why it doesn't work the same the other way around. Is it possible the "not available" status is a result of some sort of E.U. customs issue?
  3. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Do I need thes books, or just want them?   
    It was an expensive book when first published and seems to have remained so. Apparently, it was until rather recently only available directly from the publisher, Ancre, in Nice, France. The Art of Shipmodeling - Bernard Frolich - Ancre There are now new and used copies available on U.S. Amazon (The Art of Ship modeling: Bernard Frolich: 9782903179847: Amazon.com: Books) and U.S. eBay: (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=The+Art+of+Shipmodeling+by+Bernard+Frolich&_sacat=0&_odkw=The+Art+of+Shipmodeling&_osacat=0)
     
    Believe me, we feel your pain over here, as well. We have to pay the same exorbitant shipping costs from the U.K. to the U.S. that you apparently must in the opposite direction. I believe this increase in shipping costs was attributable to the fact that all shippers seem now to be sending everything air freight. Time was, you could order something from Europe and it might take three or four weeks to get here, but the shipping didn't break the bank unless you wanted to opt for air freight. Now it's all air freight whether you need it or not.  On top of that, you may also be paying the price for "Brexit," but I'm not really all that familiar with that issue, of course. Perhaps you might consider having a friend who is making a run to the South of France "smuggle" a copy back for you from Ancre.  It's really a valuable resource.
  4. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Do I need thes books, or just want them?   
    I believe that The Art of Shipmodeling has reached that pinnacle of universal reference work that it is simply referred to by its author's last name: "Frolich." I see where, inexplicably, Amazon has it for sale new for $70.00. That's a steal at less than half the price most of us paid over the last 22 years since it was first published. I'd grab a copy in a hot minute if I were you. There's a wealth of information in it. 
     
    But beware! Do not confuse The Art of Shipmodeling by Bernard Frolich with The Art of Ship Modeling by Richard Mansir, which is an entirely different book. It's "Frolich" that you want to make sure you are buying.
     
    If it's classic books on modeling technique and "tricks of the trade," I'd strongly recommend:
     
     The Techniques of Ship Modeling, by the late Gerald Wingrove: The Techniques of Ship Modelling by Wingrove, Gerald A. Hardback Book The Fast 9780852423660 | eBay There are always a few used copies on eBay (both hardcover and quality paperback) so shop for the lowest price, usually less than ten bucks used. 
     
    Ship Modeler's Shop Notes, Volumes 1 and 2 from the NRG. There are always used copies of these on eBay and Amazon. New copies are available from the NRG store through this forum. As for Volume 1, I'd advise you get a newer printing with the spiral binding which permits the books to be laid flat on a workbench or tabletop when working from them. The original binding was a glued spine paperback and the glue dried out and the pages come loose. My copy of Volume 1 is held together with a bulldog clip. I should bring it to Staples or one of those places and have them spiral bind it for me.
     
    William Frederick's (1874) Scale Journey: A Scratchbuilder's Evolutionary Development, by Antonio Mendez C. This book was "remaindered" on eBay a couple of years ago for seven bucks a copy and I grabbed one. It's focus is radio controlled sailing scale models, but its content is a survey of technique, and it is full of subjects not found elsewhere, especially regarding tools and shop practices. It would take you years of following build logs on MSW to pick up but a fraction of the how-to-do-its in this book. Unfortunately, it appears to have become something of a collectable at this point and Amazon is now selling them for $47.00. If you watch out for a copy on eBay, you may get lucky and snag one for closer to the price when they were selling off the remainders new. William Frederick's (1874) Scale Journey: A Scratchbuilder's Evolutionary Development: mendez, antonio: 9780975577202: Amazon.com: Books  I checked eBay just now and see where they have three between $50.00 and $169.00! (Let this be a lesson to modeling library builders everywhere!) 
     
    Plank-On-Frame Models and Scale Masting and Rigging, Vol. 1: Scale Hull Construction and Plank-On-Frame Models and Scale Masting and Rigging, Vol. 2: Scale Hull Construction by Harold A. Underhill. This two-volume set is a classic and there are lots of used copies on eBay for surprisingly reasonable prices. (Still in print, new copies run around $90 per volume!) plank on frame models underhill for sale | eBay
     
    Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier by Harold Underhill. This is what I'd call the Bible of the last days of commercial sail. If you are interested in clippers and windjammers, as well as general rigging practice at the highest level of its evolution, this book is it. Used copies are available very reasonably priced on eBay.  Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier for sale | eBay
     
    These titles are recommended for their treatment of general modeling practices and techniques more than for specific research data on specific types and periods. When your interest becomes focused on a particular type of vessel in a particular period, there are specific reference works that become "must haves," but they tend to be expensive (some running more than a hundred dollars and up) and sometimes very difficult to find. If you continue to pursue your interest in ship modeling, you will find yourself acquiring a library of some value and doing that easily becomes a related hobby in and of itself.
     
  5. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to bruce d in Blue holly: can it be saved?   
    Many thanks for all the wise words, I really didn't think there was a future for the affected wood.
    I will post an update when I've tried the acid treatment.  A bit of trial and error is needed but it's worth it. 
     
    Bruce 
  6. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Jaager in Do I need thes books, or just want them?   
    I don't think that you really want any of the three of them.
    It is difficult for any single book to cover more than a specific era  for model construction methods.   Anything broad tends to be superficial.
     
    The two volumes of the Ship Modeler's Shop notes are gems taken from the NRJ.
    The basic skills are covered in logs or technical forums here - sometimes a chore to find -  but also to see variations on the theme.  There ain't no single "answer to it".
     
    To stay out of a fugue state - it helps to specialize.  Once you specialize, your books should be reprints of contemporary books or books that show the actual practice.
    Find out what was actually done and try as best you can to duplicate it at model scale.
     
    Gaasbeek comes from a very special time.  WWI era.  There is also Estep and Desmond  and  then Charles Davis' misleading application of what was done for WWI as being relevant to any time before then.   For 20th century large wooden vessels - they are OK sources.   Except for a failed and panic based effort to overcome the U boat sinking of bulk carriers by using wooden hulls,  most large wooden vessels from then on were fantasy based replicas famous historical vessels.   These methods are much more reflective of iron and steel engineered hulls than the construction methods from the Age of Sail. 
  7. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Toolmaker in Drill bit suggestions   
    Any decent HSS, high speed steel, bit should hold up, hand drill or otherwise.
    Avoid carbide drills unless in a powered milling machine type environment. They are too brittle and prone to break easily when used in/for the purses e you describe.
  8. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from DaveBaxt in I need help painting my model   
    As said, the answer to "How do I paint my model?" is far too complicated to answer comprehensively in just a single forum post. We haven't even gotten past whether you've chosen wisely in wanting to use water-based acrylics rather than oil-based enamels. (Each has its own pluses and minuses.) Painting is one of the more demanding skills a ship modeler must acquire and in as much as it is one of those things that people think they know all they need to about, it's one which frequently brings one to unexpected grief if not done properly. Perhaps the first thing one must realize is that any paint job on a scale model must itself also be to the same scale as the model. In the scales we encounter in ship modeling, this means that the paint jobs have to be as near to perfect as possible.
     
    I would urge you to get a copy of the second volume of the Nautical Research Guild's book, Ship Modeler's Shop Notes, which has a chapter on how to paint ship models that is as good a treatment of the subject as I've ever seen. The rest of the book is full of similarly excellent trick of the trade. While you are at it, you might as well buy Volume I of the same publication. Once you see one of them, you'll want the other for sure.   Used copies can sometimes be found on eBay, but a new copy can easily be obtained for a reasonable price from the NRG directly. See: Ship Modeler's Shop Notes, and Vol. 2 – Nautical Research Guild (thenrgstore.org) and Ship Modeler's Shop Notes, Vol. I – Nautical Research Guild (thenrgstore.org) 
  9. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Scottish Guy in Blue holly: can it be saved?   
    Definitely. Any acidic residue in or on the wood is to be avoided. A mild soap solution, dishwashing liquid, or the like, should be sufficient. For the particularly obsessive types, a short dip in a baking soda and water solution should neutralize any acid, I expect. 
  10. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Scottish Guy in Book Collection for a Newbie   
    I've been keeping my powder dry, but now that It's been said before, I'll pile on. Start simple. Those who provide you with such advice usually have decades of highly involved interest in ship modeling and all have the experience to verify that modeling is a craft, and indeed an art, in which one's skill and ability always increases in the doing of it. This forum is probably the premier ship-modeling forum in the world. There are some amazing artists and craftsmen posting build logs here and the concentration of master modelers in this forum may mislead the beginner into thinking such work is the norm. Their work certainly isn't commonplace and it definitely isn't easy. 
     
    Others certainly have more experience with kits than I do, but I am familiar with what has hit the market in close to the last fifty years and I feel confident in saying that I know of no kit model of any fully-rigged Seventeenth Century vessel of the type you are contemplating that I would consider suitable for any but the most highly-experienced kit-builder to undertake. I know there are those who have done so and succeeded to one degree or another, but they are rare exceptions indeed. A beginning modeler is well-advised to select a kit suitable for beginners. These less complex kits are capable of producing every bit as elegant a model when done well as are the "monster" kits. I wouldn't advise a beginner to attempt to build any planked kit other than the high quality ones of recent vintage which provide laser-cut planks. A beginner has enough of a learning curve to deal with besides doing their own lining off and spiling the shapes of the planks and, it should also be mentioned that the shape of a hull in large measure determines the difficulty involved in planking it. A transom-sterned longboat is much easier to plank than an apple-bowed and counter-sterned warship. The beginner is also well-advised to steer clear of square-rigged vessels until they have two or three fore-and-aft-rigged kits under their belt. The increase in the complexity of square rig is exponential. The way to success is first "Do the common thing uncommonly well."
     
    Read up as much as possible on any specific kit you are considering. This forum has extensive kit review data available. Be aware that many kits are wholly incapable of producing model in the color glossy picture on its box's cover. That model was built by a highly experienced modeler who almost certainly did not limit themselves to the parts and materials contained in the kit and honest kit manufacturers will disclose that in the fine print somewhere. Most experienced kit modelers who have not "gone over to the dark side" and abandoned kits entirely routinely at least replace all the kit-supplied planking wood and rigging blocks and line because they are simply not up to their standards. (The after-market for such materials and fittings is testimony to the shortcomings of many kits!)
     
    A last bit of advice to a beginning kit builder is to select a kit that has been well-covered in the build logs section of this forum. They will provide a very valuable source of instruction as a new builder builds the same kit. Others' mistakes can be almost as instructional as our own! You don't have to re-invent the wheel.
     
    While I doubt there's any reliable data available on the subject, I believe most experienced modelers would agree that the percentage of kit models completed is but a small fraction of those purchased, which is pretty remarkable considering the price of many of the more complex kits. There's no point in encouraging the undertaking of a project which is beyond the abilities of the builder. The whole point of the exercise is to enjoy doing it.
     
    If you want to get an idea of what a top of the line kit suitable for a "determined beginner's," first and second builds, I'd recommend you check these two out. Their entire "how to build it" monographs are accessible from their websites. The longboat also has a "group build" project posted on this forum and linked from the webpage.
     
    https://syrenshipmodelcompany.com/medway-longboat-1742.php
     
    https://syrenshipmodelcompany.com/revenue-cutter-cheerful-1806.php#
     
     
     
     
  11. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Blue holly: can it be saved?   
    Definitely. Any acidic residue in or on the wood is to be avoided. A mild soap solution, dishwashing liquid, or the like, should be sufficient. For the particularly obsessive types, a short dip in a baking soda and water solution should neutralize any acid, I expect. 
  12. Laugh
    Bob Cleek reacted to Dr PR in Blue holly: can it be saved?   
    Blue mold acid trip!
  13. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Dr PR in Blue holly: can it be saved?   
    Bob,
     
    On my first ship (a minesweeper) we used oxalic acid when holystoning the deck. It bleached the wood to a very light color. It should work well to remove fungal stains from wood, and it definitely will kill the organisms!
     
    I would be sure to wash the wood thoroughly afterward to remove any remaining acid before using it on a model.
  14. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Scottish Guy in For Beginners -- A Cautionary Tale   
    I've only skimmed my copy of the latest issue of WoodenBoat magazine, but I see where there is an article in it on a gozzo (the lateen-rigged Ligurian fishing boat you've mentioned) that has been designed for yacht use with a low doghouse. I don't know about the doghouse, but the plans in the magazine look to be sufficient to build a model from. There's wide range of details on those fishing boats and you can probably learn something from any plans you can lay hands on. One of the catches with indigenous working watercraft is that so often they are built by tradition and by eye with perhaps a mould pattern or three handed down from father to son boatbuilders and drawn plans are hard to come by. 
  15. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Scottish Guy in For Beginners -- A Cautionary Tale   
    I agree! You just assemble a plastic kit. "Glue part number 5A into hole number 5B" and so on. There's no need to understand what the part is called or what its function might be. To a greater extent, particularly with earlier wooden models, be they ship or otherwise, at least before laser cutting, is was just assumed by the manufacturers that their customers has some basic understanding of what they were building and adequate woodworking skills to cut and fit the parts together.  Unfortunately, many of recent generations are often clueless when it comes to the manual arts and the high schools by and large abandoning their shop classes hasn't helped any, either. Anybody starting in out in sailing ship modeling would do well to start by reading Chapelle's Boatbuilding and learning how a wooden boat is built from the lines up. That will make their modeling tasks much more understandable. Of course, such advice would be sure to fall on deaf ears in this age of instant gratification. How many kids today know "righty-tighty, lefty-loosey?"
     
  16. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Scottish Guy in For Beginners -- A Cautionary Tale   
    For example, consider Syren's Medway Longboat. It's not exactly a "beginners" model, but an attentive, determined, careful builder who can follow instructions (or ask Chuck Passaro, the kit designer here on MSW) can build quite an impressive model of an Admiralty longboat that is identical in all respects with the contemporary model at the Royal Maritime Museum at Greenwich.
     
    Syren's website makes the instructions available. The link is halfway down the page: Medway Longboat (1742) (syrenshipmodelcompany.com)  Chuck's instructions make all the difference in the world. As far as I've seen, only Syren and Vanguard have produced models with instructions that make it possible for an entry-level modeler to succeed if you follow them step by step. There's no reason your first model has to end up looking crudely built if you take time and follow good instructions. You'll find many here at MSW who have "gone over to the dark side" and scratch-build spectacular works of art over a period of years after spending the better part of a lifetime studying and researching their subjects. Without that knowledge, which takes time to acquire, it's impossible to build a kit model that looks like the (professionally built) picture on the kit box without extensive "kit bashing" and replacement of stock parts and materials with after-market upgrades. You'll get there soon enough, but you aren't likely to take any wrong turns starting out with something like the Medway Longboat kit which really does make it possible for a dedicated beginner to build a model any modeler would be proud to display. 
     
    In my opinion, the best way to learn is by building a challenging, sophisticated kit that has good instructions, rather than a "dumbed down" "beginner's kit" with inadequate instructions. 
  17. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from FriedClams in SMS WESPE 1876 by wefalck – 1/160 scale - Armored Gunboat of the Imperial German Navy - as first commissioned   
    There's just no getting used to the level of detail at that scale which you are accomplishing with this model! It's a fascinating piece.
     
  18. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from KORTES in SS Blagoev ex-Songa 1921 by Valeriy V - scale 1:100 - Soviet Union   
    The notched covering boards are exquisite, especially at that scale! Bravo!
     
    Glad to hear you are doing well, also. We all worry about Ukraine. 
  19. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Blue holly: can it be saved?   
    I have no experience with "blue mold" holly, but I've dealt quite successfully with mold on other wood species by bleaching it with a solution of oxalic or citric acid and water. Oxalic acid is sold in crystal form in paint stores as "wood bleach." (Don't buy "teak bleach" or other such products. Just get plain oxalic acid crystals marketed as "wood bleach" 'and follow the instructions on the container.) As I said, I haven't ever bleached moldy holly, but, to one degree or another, I've had success with bleaching other wood species. Oxalic acid wood bleach is relatively inexpensive, so you won't be out much if it doesn't work and you'll always have it to try on other species that you want to bleach back to "just cut" color. Do wear nitrile gloves or the equivalent when working with oxalic acid solutions. It's not particularly dangerous, but prolonged exposure to skin can cause acid burns and soaking your fingers in the stuff, which will first attack the soft flesh beneath your fingernails, but only start hurting several hours after exposure, is one of those things you'll probably only ever do once in your life. (Don't ask me how I know this!  )
  20. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Scottish Guy in Use of “other power tools”   
    Yes, I've considered the Cricut as well. My daughter has one. The manufacturer's specifications indicate that grown wood or veneer up to 2.4 mm thick or plywood up to 1/8" thick (why they mix the measurement systems, I have no idea) can be cut on the machine. I suppose, theoretically at least, that computer data for an entire ship model, in some cases, at least, could be sold for use on the machine to cut out all the parts for a decent model. In theory, at least. It would have to employ some card stock modeling techniques. The machine surely has many applications for modeling, although most all of which I'm aware are already well-covered by existing technology.  They seem to be a lot of fun to play with. Whether you need one or not, is up to you.
  21. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Blue holly: can it be saved?   
    I have no experience with "blue mold" holly, but I've dealt quite successfully with mold on other wood species by bleaching it with a solution of oxalic or citric acid and water. Oxalic acid is sold in crystal form in paint stores as "wood bleach." (Don't buy "teak bleach" or other such products. Just get plain oxalic acid crystals marketed as "wood bleach" 'and follow the instructions on the container.) As I said, I haven't ever bleached moldy holly, but, to one degree or another, I've had success with bleaching other wood species. Oxalic acid wood bleach is relatively inexpensive, so you won't be out much if it doesn't work and you'll always have it to try on other species that you want to bleach back to "just cut" color. Do wear nitrile gloves or the equivalent when working with oxalic acid solutions. It's not particularly dangerous, but prolonged exposure to skin can cause acid burns and soaking your fingers in the stuff, which will first attack the soft flesh beneath your fingernails, but only start hurting several hours after exposure, is one of those things you'll probably only ever do once in your life. (Don't ask me how I know this!  )
  22. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Breechings seized or tied to a ring bolt   
    Ah ha! I know the name of that tune.  Back in the days before the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships ("DANFS") ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_American_Naval_Fighting_Ships ) was posted, in part at least, on the internet (https://www.hazegray.org/danfs/) I had acquired for free in a "junk books pile" a set of the nine-volume "Encyclopedia Britannica" of U.S. Navy ship histories and photographs going back to "day one" of the U.S. Navy less one volume. Published by the Naval Historical Center, the large and expensive, somewhat limited edition series had been out of print since 1991 and there was little chance of my ever obtaining the missing volume. Then, one day when I had some time to kill, I was perusing the stacks of the county main library which I rarely visited and I spotted a DANFS volume! Unbelievably, it was the one volume that I didn't have! I checked the card catalog and there was no listing for any DANFS volumes in the library's collection. I took the book to the head librarian and explained my situation, the fact that it appeared this volume was an "orphan," and that there was no sign of it or the rest of the set in the card catalog. Explaining my interest in maritime history, I asked her as nicely as I could if it were possible for me to buy this rather esoteric research book from the library so they could use the money to buy another book more likely to be read by the library's patrons. She looked at the volume and noted it had a library stamp and all that in it, but nobody had ever checked it out. She looked at me and said, "I have no idea where this book came from. It should have been culled from the stacks long ago. If we kept every book that came into our possession, we'd quickly run out of shelf space. Just take it. We're glad to get rid of it and I'm happy to see it go to somebody who wants it." Thanking her profusely, I walked out with a free book which, considering its value as the "missing link" to a now complete DANFS set, I would have gladly paid a fair price for!
     
    I'm not so sure whether you'd be so lucky with a set that's worth close to a thousand bucks, though! You can always try. Stranger things have happened!  
     
    BTW, I just ran a search on the DANFS set and there's a complete nine volume set for sale on eBay right now for a rather excellent price of $101.19 with free shipping! I'm not sure why, but there it was:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/325989377449?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1qIDhXgXvR8eXOOj6-pkOmQ61&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=325989377449&targetid=4580771614098651&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=603247547&mkgroupid=1234752552191001&rlsatarget=pla-4580771614098651&abcId=9316119&merchantid=51291&msclkid=4c8398c3d71f1a7cd709fedb7e6913fd 
     
    Note that "complete" eight volume sets were the original set. The ninth volume was an additional supplement updating additional vessels. Prices for complete sets appear to be running closer to $200 to $300, plus shipping.
     
    Anybody who's interested in U.S. Navy fighting ships really shouldn't miss this opportunity. 
     
     

  23. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Material for small-scale oars   
    Yes, I don't see any reason why the Byrnes drawplate can't be sharpened. All it takes is a flat surface, some fine abrasive sheet that will cut metal decently, and the patience to do the bit of handwork required (which I expect could actually be substantial if the drawplate is hardened steel as I expect the Byrnes model is. I've also used razor blades as well as hacksaw and drywall knife blades as stock to grind my own scraper shapes which works fine once you master the shaping. I use a rotary tool with a diamond burr or a metal cutting ceramic disk. It takes a careful touch, of course. l've never tried to sharpen the Artesania Latina molding scrapers. While I haven't found the need to do so as yet, I expect it would be possible, but how effective, I'm not sure. Further experimentation is in oder!  The Artesania Latina scrapers are a bit pricy and not essential for ship modeling until you run into a more complex molding shape that's required. Simple 1/8" half rounds and larger probably just as easily made with DIY scraper. Artesania Latina scrapers come into their own when the more detailed and complex trim and molding shapes that are much more difficult to grind yourself are required.
  24. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Material for small-scale oars   
    Well, I learn something new everyday! Thanks for the clarification, guys! It makes sense that a metalworking drawplate might have a slight chamfer on the "exit" side of the plate to allow for a bit of 'wiggle room" as the wire exits the plate. I guess I've just been lucky in obtaining woodworking drawplates without knowing the difference.
     
    My Byrnes drawplate is marketed as useful for making trunnels nails, but doesn't mention any further distinction regarding its use for wood or metal one way or the other. It has "(T)hirty precision holes cover the range from .016" through .059" - at 1:48 (1/4" scale) that represents full-size trunnels of 3/4" diameter through almost 2" in diameter!" The smallest holes on the Byrnes drawplate are so small as to be nearly invisible when viewed from the back ("exit") side and I had to hold it up to the light to see them without a magnifying glass. The back of the Byrnes drawplate is perfectly flat and the "exit" side of the holes aren't chamfered. Like all things "Byrnes," this drawplate is an elegantly finished tool, although I can't imagine ever needing a .016" diameter dowel, nor finding a species of wood that would draw down to such a size without breaking! (Some species of long-grained bamboo, perhaps?) 
     
    The cheesy drawplate I got first from Micro-Mark has 24 holes, which are not numbered as to size. The smallest hole looks to be about the same diameter as the smallest hole on the Byrnes drawplate, but the largest hole is around .125", a bit more than twice the diameter of the largest hole in the Byrnes drawplate. Thus, the Micro-Mark drawplate provides a wider range of sizes in a fewer number of holes and therefore a much less gradual progression of hole sizes. This fact makes it a lot more difficult to use with the narrower holes because each successively sized hole takes a much larger "bite" out of the material at each step in the shaving process than a greater number of holes over the same size range which tends to encourage breakage, . The "exit" side of its holes aren't chamfered.
     
    The second drawplate which I acquired, (if memory serves, on eBay,) has 83 holes running from about .125" to what looks like a couple of steps smaller than the smallest hole on the Byrnes drawplate at .016, a rather wide range of sizes with three and a half times as many holes over the same range of sizes on the Micro-Mark drawplate. This fact greatly reduces the problem of breakage characteristic of the Micro-Mark with its greater a progression between sizes. 
     
    While the Byrnes drawplate is marked with wire gauge sizes for each hole, neither of my other two are. The larger drawplate I got off of eBay is better finished than the Micro-Mark drawplate and, of course, the Byrnes drawplate is impeccably machined. (I have no idea where any of their manufacturers get the bits that drill the smallest holes!) My largest drawplate is about .225" thick. The Byrnes drawplate is about .125" thick, and the Micro-Mark drawplate is about .096" thick. The Micro-Mark drawplate decidedly lacks the "heft" of the other two. 
     
    Given the example of the Byrnes drawplate, I "lapped" the other two on their back ("exit") sides to "sharpen" their wood-cutting edges by taping a few abrasive sheets to the machined cast iron table of my Unisaw and took them down to a uniform surface finish of about 600 grit. This markedly improved their cutting smoothness.  
     
    I have on a few occasions drawn annealed fine copper wire through these plates with acceptable results, but never having done so with a "real" metal-working drawplate I can't offer any comparisons between the two types of plates for drawing wire. I would expect that a goldsmith or silversmith would be far more demanding of the results than my limited experience permits! As much of a conclusion as I can offer from my limited experience is that a woodworking drawplate can be made to draw metal wire, albeit perhaps crudely by professional jewelers' standards, but a metalworking drawplate cannot be used to "shave" wood at all, at least not without taking the back ("exit") side of the plate down below the chamfer to the level of the sized hole alone as noted in the comments above.
     
    That said, while I've found this to be so only with round-sectioned material, I doubt the same can be said for many, if not all, of the many other drawplate section shapes available for drawing wire. It certainly would be convenient to be able to get out half- and quarter-round wood trim on a drawplate, wouldn't it? I currently produce half- and quarter-round trim stock with an Artesania Latina scraper applied to the edge of a suitably-thicknessed strip of wood and then cut the shaped edge from the strip on my Byrnes table saw and have no complaints beyond the tedium of the scraping. 
     
    For those unfamiliar with these handy tools, they come in three separate sets ("Set A" through "Set C") of three scrapers each. Every shape is different. Available in the U.S. from all the "usual suspects" and sometimes on eBay. Priced between USD$10.00 and USD$17.00 per set of three scrapers. Pictured below approximately "life-sized." 
     
    (Note below: Not my hairy thumb!)

    Note: I find it more effective to hold the scraper in a jeweler's hand vise with the vise jaws close to the working edge of the scraper. This further stiffens the scraper and gives better control of the scraper, not to mention saving wear and tear on fingertips!
     

     
     
    SET "A": https://artesanialatina.net/en/micro-tools/1295-micro-moulding-scrapers-a-shapers-for-wooden-plastic-models-miniatures-8421426273007.html
     
    SET"B": https://artesanialatina.net/en/micro-tools/1296-micro-moulding-scrapers-B-shapers-for-wooden-plastic-models-miniatures-8421426273014.html

    SET "C": https://artesanialatina.net/en/micro-tools/62355-micro-moulding-scrapers-c-shapers-for-wooden-plastic-models-miniatures-8437021128222.html

      
  25. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Material for small-scale oars   
    The Micro-Mark drawplate you've mentioned is insanely overpriced. If it is anything like the same item I once naively purchased from Micro-Mark ages ago, it's junk, probably made in India or Pakistan. Drawplates are not inexpensive. The decent ones are made to high tolerances of accuracy from high-quality steel, or even tungsten, but they run in the same price range, if not lower, than the crummy low-quality one Micro-Mark offers. The fact that Micro-Mark claims its "regular price" is $75.00 is ludicrous! 
     
    Rule one on tool buying (which in this instance I broke, to my dismay) is to only buy a tool when you need it and then buy the best tool of that type you can possibly afford. Quality compromises will allow you to get a lesser quality tool, but in this instance, the Micro-Mark drawplate is at the bottom of the barrel in terms of quality and priced equivalent to, if not more than, professional level jeweler's drawplates sold by the top jewelers' tool supply companies. Drawplates come in various size ranges as well as a wide variety of extrusion "shapes.' You can get drawplates that will produce wire sizes with "star" shaped cross-sections, as well as squares, half-moons, diamonds, half-rounds, and so on. Obviously, a simple round shape drawplate is the easiest to make and will therefore be less expensive that the more difficult to fabricate shapes.
     
    While Micro-Mark is always an entertaining catalog and their sales are sometimes quite worthwhile if you know what you are buying, the best source of quality ship modeling tools will often be found in the catalogs of professional supply houses that cater to jewelers, and in dental and medical instrument supply houses. Check out what Otto Frei, one of the largest jewelers' supply houses, has to offer: Drawplates & Drawbenches — Otto Frei Otto Frei's least expensive offerings are priced about the same as Micro-Mark's offering, and up, but you should be able to expect that you will be getting a better quality tools from them. (Rather commonly, retailers that focus on the "hobby" market, will sell lower cost, lower quality products than retailers that focus on professional customers.) There is also a plethora of jeweler's drawplates listed for sale on eBay. Of course, eBay is definitely "buyer beware country," but if you examine the listings closely and avoid buying from an Asian distributor of knock-off tools, you may find some good bargains: jeweler's drawplates for sale | eBay
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