American sailing warships with no plans or records

[Sam Ladley]

I'm in NY lecturing this week, but when imhome I'll put together a packet of stuff on the house. It is fully intact- including some civil war graffiti! I am very interested in the Sabine because of the rotating parrot guns. It seems to me she was an old school classic sailing ship that was updated with modern munitions and represents a transition in naval warfare. 40 of her crew were sent to the monitor. I have a couple great photos showing the flybridge- had to be one of thefirst- and spar deck. I know the inside face of the quarterdechhouse , but not the stern treatment or the exact line on the spardeck where the fore and aft house/gun platforms begin. In one photo I have there is a field artillery caisson on deck, maybe for a 12 pounder? But is that for marines, or used on board? I'm guessing its for the marines, but cool for a model! How do I get 96 scale carriage wheels?

[Sam Ladley]

Library of congress has a photo, "officers on deck of USS Sabine" that shows that fly bridge. Kinda steampunk.

[CharlieZardoz]

Enjoy New York! It's a great city if I do say so myself 

[mtaylor]

I think the caisson would have been used by the Marines.  There were small boat howitzers for the ship's boats that were also used by the Marines for repelling boarders and also during shore "adventures'.  They were mostly made of iron and designed to break down and loaded onto the ship's boats.

 

As for the rotating Parrott rifles like those used on the Constellation (one fore, one aft), I've seen many photos online but the attribution is often vague or non-existent.  I saw one of an apparent Confederate Parrott (flag in photo) using a wooden carriage.  The text claimed it was the Constellation.

[Talos]

Ah, Sabine and Santee, a very cool subject. I’ve always been interested in those two frigates as they represent the last of the line of heavy frigates dating back to the original six (though Congress was the last design). They were both lengthened 15 feet from the basic Brandywine design, though interestingly they weren’t lengthened at the waist like a lot of conversions. Instead they chopped the bow off and built a new lengthened, finer one to clean up the ship’s entry. On Santee they also rebuilt the stern; her stern and stemposts were nearly vertical as opposed to the raked lines of every other ship in that design evolution. Sabine retained the rake of the bow and stern most similar to St Lawrence. Santee’s mast positions were also changed, including moving the main and foremasts forward.

 

The ships had the standard round sterns of the Brandywine class, I doubt they had raised sections on the bow and stern or raised gun platforms either. Here is a bigger version of Charlie's picture of Sabine, where you can clearly see her opened foreward pivot ports, albeit much later in her career.

http://i.imgur.com/Ml1rm9A.jpg

 

They most likely had the standard pivot arrangement shared with Constellation, Macedonian, Cumberland, the steamers, etc. Here are diagrams from the Naval Ordnance Manual of the time.

http://i.imgur.com/zzGZy0d.jpg http://i.imgur.com/pFQF1Wv.jpg

 

This is the pivot setup for a bow 8” (150-pdr) Parrott on a gunboat to give an idea of the way they were done.

http://i.imgur.com/7J9d7wm.jpg

 

That deckhouse sounds really cool. Looking forward to seeing more information there.  You can see Santee’s pretty clearly in this pic dating from her time at the Naval Academy. It extends from the mainmast forward to encompass the galley smokestack. Here’s also a picture of Constellation’s deckhouse from after 1900 when she was working the same job.

http://i.imgur.com/xW5h8zP.jpg http://i.imgur.com/n3RaPXN.jpg

 

Speaking of the flying bridge, this is the picture that was discussed earlier.

http://i.imgur.com/n3RaPXN.jpg

 

Finally, here’s a nice, random image of Sabine from 1864 deployed against the CSN.

http://i.imgur.com/tHqCNVU.jpg

 

 

I've been wanting to draw Sabine and Santee, since the plans Chapelle had just cover the Santee. I want to replicate Sabine's raked bow and stern, plus the ships lack quarter galleries in the plans. That will have to wait though, I'm fiddling with the John Adams, plus working on a profile drawing for a future post on USS Macedonian (II) in her frigate guise, a "what if" with the sloop Constellation finished as a frigate, and postulating a 36-gun frigate counterpart to the Java-class (with Macedonian the equivalent to Brandywine and Constellation to Santee).

 

[Sam Ladley]

Thanks for the info everybody. I'm still searching for info on the Sabine's stern at the spardeck. The LoC photo of "officers on the Sabine" has great info for the fly bridge and I can see the stern, but I can't tell if there was a cutout for the parrot gun. I agree with you all that the big guns sat on the deck and had enlarged gunports port and starboard. I'm approaching the spardeck on my model and I'm stuck on the transom. There are photos of the Hartford that show a raised platform, and one of the Sabine but I don't trust it. The Sabine and Santee also both had closed over bows (visible in the Santee pic posted). Was the face toward the deck closed?

[Sam Ladley]

I'm scratch building IX in dahlgren deck guns for a USS Sabine model, and I can't find any records of what type of trucks they were on: wood or iron, pivot or broadside. Any idea on a source? The dahlgrens sat with 32 pounder broadside guns, but they were put on at the same time the Sabine got the bow and stern 100 pounder parrots, so I'm thinking they were on pivot carriages.

[Talos]

Well, that's an interesting question. The bow and stern pivots are the only two pivot locations I know for sure on the ships, so the IX-inch are either in pivots on some of the broadside ports, or they're on Marsilly carriages, which I think is more likely. These were the standard carriages for IX-inch Dahlgrens in broadside mounts. Even the XI-inch broadside Dahlgrens on New Ironsides used modified IX-inch carriages that were widened.

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Marsilly.jpg

 

http://civilwartalk.com/attachments/00177u-jpg.17193/

[CharlieZardoz]

Hi Sam! My knowledge on this is limited however Talos's image looks correct. I can also offer some images of some other civil war frigates which may be helpful, in this case Cumberland, Minnesota, Congress and Hartford. The guns are fairly visible and I imagine Sabine would have looked similar.

[mtaylor]

Here's how I did the 1854 Constellation pivots but she had Parrotts fore and aft.  The below deck guns were on a "standard" carriage (definition subject to argument).  

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the pivot guns were mounted midships, there are pics of those about.

[Sam Ladley]

Thanks, Charlie! The bow ports with removable rail are a great help. I have the plan for the bow and stern parrots now. The IX dahlgrens are on iron trucks, visible in photos of Santee and Sabine. I'm assuming they are broadside guns and not pivots. Too bad, I liked the idea of using iron carronade pivots from a Constitution model. More stuff to scratch build .

Edited June 29, 2016 by Sam Ladley

[Sam Ladley]

Here are a few photos that show the sabine class gundeck, including the midship house. the Santee did not seem to have the "bridge" over the wheel, but it is visible in all shots of the Sabine. The covered bow is visible on both. I'm now assuming the 100 lb parrots had no for or aft cutouts, only broadside. In the photo of the Sabine officers the stern seems solid, the pivot gun is visible in stowed position behind the mast. Also the caisson for the 20lb dahlgren is visible at he stern. It seems the two 20lb brass guns were moved around the deck on a field carriages (?!)

 

.

 

 

[CharlieZardoz]

Well Constellation, Cumberland and Minnesota (all pictured) had the rounded "sloop style" stern but Sabine was probably more like Congress (also pictured) as well as other Potomac class figates. So i assume Santee and Sabine had the typical 4 window stern and decorations ala Brandywine with a lifebeoat hanging aft so yeah more like broadside guns than pivots but with some mobility tracks like on the Cumberland model. I need to visit that model next time im in norfolk for better pics that what Incould find online. Great images though Sam

Edited June 30, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[CharlieZardoz]

Decided to add this here as well. So I did a bit of researching and found some new info regarding United States as well as some of the other ships stationed at Gosport before the burning in 1861. Two illustrations show what the shipyard looked like apparently the Pennsylvania, Germantown, Plymouth and Dolphin we all in good shape ready to sail simply lacked crew to help them escape. Columbus and Delaware were apparently in bad shape off in the "rotten row" section and useless, then you have Columbia, Raritan and United States which were in line for repairs but at the time of the burning partially disassembled, mastless hulks. Seems United States was a former command of one of the officers and she was there largely for sentimental value but sounds like she had stayed mastless and untouched since 1849 and was too decayed to be salvaged. Also to frolick I found that image of Columbia below which is part of a larger engraving and shows United States to the far left which only has 13 ports so yes I guess the illustrator wasn't very discerning of proper port counts. I put arrows to point where the United States is in all the pictures. That one with the capstan in front supposedly shows Pennsylvania in front, then Columbia, Raritan and United States again as you can see all mastless and in ordinary. So now I finally know what state the ships were in by 1861. I took these quotes off the internet from Hamton Roads museum and nnyblog. Enjoy!

 

 

There were at the Navy Yard at that time, the sloop-of-war Cumberland, 22 guns, in commission, with a full complement of officers and men on board; the sloops-of-war Plymouth, 22 guns, and Germantown, 22 guns, and the brig Dolphin, 6 guns, almost ready for sea; the steam frigate Merrimac, 40 guns, almost ready for sea and undergoing repairs; the line of battleship Pennsylvania, 120 guns, in commission as a receiving ship, with considerable crew on board, and the 74-gun ships Delaware and Columbus, and the frigates Raritan, Columbia and United States, dismantled and in ordinary. The force of sailors and marines on the various vessels and at the Navy Yard was probably about 600, well armed and abundantly supplied with ammunition. The Plymouth, Germantown, Dolphin and Merrimac were lying alongside the wharves and men working on them. The Delaware and Columbus were at a wharf at the southern end of the yard, and might have been considered in "Rotten Row" a term applied to vessels for which the Government no longer has any use.

 

 

This is an 1853 engraving in the museum's collection of the Gosport Shipyard that appeared in the Boston-based Gleason's Pictorial Room Companion. In contrast to the 1820 print shown in the previous blog post, this illustration shows the Yard for what it was: an active industrial site and military base. The ships in the illustration are interesting mix of old and new ships and is good representation of how the U.S. Navy was slowly changing and modernizing its fleet. On the far right is the White Elephant that was the 120-gun ship-of-the-line USS Pennsylvania. To her left is second generation 44-gun frigate USS Columbia. Her sister ship USS Savannah can be seen on the far left. Also on the far left is the remains of the historic first generation 44-gun frigate USS United States. At this point in her career, the old frigate, best known for her War of 1812 operations, was being allowed to have a quiet retirement.

 

[CharlieZardoz]

So with all that in mind I feel we can come to a few conclusions. If Gosport hadn't been captured then most likely Merrimac, Germantown, Dolphin and Plymouth would have all been put to blockade duty shortly after. Columbus, Delaware, New York and United States would have remained as rotting and useless relics. Pennsylvannia would have stayed in Gosport grounded in the mud serving more as a floating barracks for coastal defense than having any use as a seagoing vessel. And then there is Raritan and Columbia who were most likely being considered to be cut down to sloops same as Cumberland and Savannah. We know Raritan at least was in decent enough shape since after her capture the Confederates did have a plan it seems to convert her (as well as Pennsylvania and some of the rest) to rams similar to Merrimac (see image). However we know that by 1864 all pure sailing warships were essentially retired, either becoming floating barracks/receiving/store ships like Potomac, Brandywine and St Lawrence became or training ships like Savannah, Santee and Sabine. Whether Columbia or Raritan would be the former or the latter depends on the degree of repairs that were needed. With only 2-3 years before their complete antiquation I find it unlikely they would have been cut down to sloops since repairing the old ships was likely not as much of a priority to the navy as building new more useful ships for the war and possibly any work done would have been halted and at best they could have been quickly converted to receiving/store ships the way Potomac and Brandywine were at the beginning of the war.

 

 

Also BTW here is a nice pic of the stern of USS Independence in her latter days as a receiving/store ship.

Edited July 1, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Sam Ladley]

I'm gleaning a lot of information from this photo of the uss Sabine, and some questions. The 9 inch dahlgrens - there were 10 on the main deck with 10 32 pounders and two 100 lb parrots, are on iron carriages. The bridge crosses above the storage rack on the bulwark and extends outboard slightly. It appears there is an access cutout through the bulwark at the bridge. I find no other photo evidence of a gangway entrance near the wheel. I'm starting to think there was a fold down gunport for the rear parrot in the center of the stern, maybe 15 feet wide? There is something in this shot that could be a door. I also am looking at the shell rack, the wire ladder to the ratlines from the deck, the raised platform up to the sternboat, and the field caisson in the background as interesting details.

[Sam Ladley]

Well here's a wrench in my Sabine build. I want to recreate her configuration late in her career and came across this! It seems she acquired a full quarterdeck after the civil war. Is there a pivot gun up there? She keeps her pivot guns until 1876. If I build her with this deck, did she have window ports aft? I found a new London photo of her stern that shows only one row of windows. Hmmm.

Early Photos -- Portsmouth - Image 10.pdf

[CharlieZardoz]

Great picture Sam! I would say choose the items you wish to incorporate into your build and go from there. Sometimes ship modeling can be a bit "idealized" for example it is known that Sultana probably had her figurehead removed when she was given swivel guns and outfitted for military service however almost all models of her are shown with both... because it looks nice. I'd say keep the stern windows as there was most likely no change in her stern, if a quarterdeck was added it was likely something tacked on and removable rather than an actual increase in the bulkhead and I would assume was to assist in her training duties. It might not have run all the way to the stern but sat in the mid range as an extra platform if that makes sense? That's just my thoughts however you may find yourself picking pieces of what you would like to represent in your model in the hopes that it is also aesthetically pleasing as a work of art. Very interesting stuff

Edited August 5, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

That’s actually not a quarterdeck, that’s a poop deck. The ship already had a quarterdeck, it’s the aft section of the spar deck.

 

I don’t think they kept the aft pivot though. The aft pivot is definitely not up on the poop cabin’s roof. You can see in the photo that the spanker boom attached to the mizzen is still in the same place. I really do think they stuck with the same four ports on each deck on the stern, not a specially-wider port for the pivot. If you look at the picture of her stern with the boat, you can see one of the ports open by the bow of the boat. Now looking at the drawings of Sabine’s boats and measurements from that that are in Chapelle, it is probably a 28-footer. I took plans of her stern, sized it to the official 45-foot width, and added a box that’s 28 feet long, centered on the centerline. One end of it is exactly where the gunport is, matching the photograph. I’m attaching that drawing and an annotated copy of the New London photo. There would be a pivot port behind each of the ports for the aft Parrott to use, giving a very good field of fire even without huge ports.

 

With regards to the 8^th July post, that’s a gunport next to the bridge (fifth from the stern, not counting the two stern ports on that side). The gangway was far forward of that, around the main mast, not the mizzen. I believe in that picture there, the platform on the stern is built over the starboard stern chase port. It doesn’t look robust and can probably be taken down as part of clearing for action. It couldn’t be built closer to the centerline, the sweep of the spanker boom gets in the way. The part beneath the spanker is just the bulwark, like any other Brandywine-class ship with a round stern.

 

 

[CharlieZardoz]

The lower 4 ports were windows like Constellation no?

Edited August 6, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

They're ports with window inserts when the ship isn't cleared for action, yes.

[CharlieZardoz]

So youre saying the windows were removable then? I assume the interior had a cabin similar to Constitution though?

[Talos]

Of course they were. That was pretty standard at the time in the US. You can see them fitted in other gunports here on USS Portsmouth, Jamestown, Kearsarge, and others. Though the ones in the regular gunports were probably only fitted in port, I would imagine that the stern windows were probably fitted any time they weren't cleared for action (at which time they would disassemble the captain's cabin). They probably had blank wood plugs they could put there too for stormy weather.

 

http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/86/098602502.jpg

http://usgwarchives.net/va/portsmouth/shipyard/ships/jamestown/jamestown4.jpg

http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/86/098617628.jpg

http://www.wrecksite.eu/img/wrecks/z_a_usstrenton1876.jpg

[uss frolick]

Hey Talos, are your red lines not pointing to the three spaces between the windows, instead of the four windows themselves? The outer pair, I believe, doubled as quarter gallery access ports, as they projected out on a diagonal.

 

That stern view of the Jamestown is fantastic. It clearly shows the stern-board scroll pattern, and notice the central star element between the windows! Above the star is another element that is hidden by the boat. The lower part of an eagle? Notice that light board covering over the quarter-gallery. Was that put over the gallery to protect it from being scraped by the quarter boat, or a stern anchor? The draught of the Jamestown shows that her quarter-gallery was very ornately carved, and thus perhaps worthy of extra protection?

[Talos]

It's certainly possible, of course, though I think I got them right, with the fourth main deck port being hidden by the curve of the stern. I point out the port by the bow of the stern boat being almost directly above, as well as the quarter gallery badge (probably a star) in the next space directly to the left, like on the modern stern of Constellation. http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/83f9395f348a497984c631fe8caedc81/uss-constellation-seen-from-the-stern-baltimore-d0w36x.jpg

 

It wouldn't make sense for the ports to function as quarter-gallery access. Not only would that be defeating a major reason for the stern shape (allowing fire over the rear quarters, eliminating a major blindspot  that men-of-war had,  but the quarter port is visible on all the plans of round-sterned ships with quarter galleries immediately forward of it. The Sabine plans actually shed some light there. They're missing quarter galleries and stern detail, so I overlaid them with the Brandywine's stern (which does have them) and they're an exact match. Rather than the quarter ports, they actually cover up the very last broadside gunport aft. You can see it in the heavy frigate comparison I threw together last year. 

 

You're right about Jamestown. The stern detail on the draught and on the real ship is amazing. Notice also in the picture that there are gunport covers fitted on the stern ports, hinged at the bottom and hanging horizontal. Her plan is so weird compared to the other super sloops of her construction program. Vertical, heavy stern, fitted with a spar deck from the start, and quite a bit larger than the rest.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

Here's a few pics of Constellation's cabin from ye olde internet and gives a good view of the stern windows and their function (look pretty easy to remove). You can also see holes where I assume hooks for cannon ropes would have been?

Edited August 6, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

Those are definitely mounts for the breeching ropes of the cannons. With having to clear the bench in front of the ports there, I wonder if they're more meant for the two-wheeled iron Marsilly-style carriages like you can see in this mislabeled gundeck photo of Santee. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Gun_deck_USS_Richmond_LOC_4a14697v.jpeg(you can see the name Santee on the buckets). Those carriages make more sense for the stern anyway, since they allow you to shift around one or two guns easily without pivot rails or filling all four ports constantly. You can even store the guns normally out of there, so they don't take up space in officer country.

 

EDIT: You can find/download a bigger version of the Sabine gundeck (facing the bow, I might add) picture here. http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/det.4a14697/

Edited August 6, 2016 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

Isnt that uss richmond?

[Talos]

Isnt that uss richmond?

 

Like I said, it's mislabeled. Richmond had an open gun deck and even when a spar deck was fitted there were far fewer guns on her deck. You can see the name "Santee" on the sand buckets hanging on the left  as pointed out over on Civil War Talk.

 

http://civilwartalk.com/attachments/santee-jpg.39160/

[CharlieZardoz]

Yep I see it now. And the design does look like a proper frigate not a hybrid like the Richmond.