US Brig Niagara by mikiek - FINISHED - Model Shipways - Scale 1:64 - First wooden ship build

[6ohiocav]

Mike,

 

I will be interested in seeing how the frapping works out. Having handled these tackles, I suspect that it is going to be pretty difficult. I don't think doing the frapping off the ship would work, since you would have to loosen the tackle some to drop the hooks in the eyebolts and then tighten them.  Doing that while they are in place might work ok with the train tackles, since there is some room to maneuver, but the gun tackles, being tucked in tight to the gun, would be a challenge. Of course, it may be easier than making coils.

[mikiek]

After the tackle blocks are reaved but before they are hooked to the eyebolts, the plan is to pull the line so the blocks are at the appropriate distance from each other. I stuck 2 pieces of thick wire into my mock-up station about as far apart as the tackle blocks will be. I put a small loop in each wire so that I can hook a tackle between them and the wire stretches them taught. Then it's just a matter of applying some glue to the line(s) in between the blocks and then wrapping the excess line around the glue. After the glue dries I just hooked the finished tackle to the gun & bulwark.

 

That's how I did the samples. It really didn't take more than a minute. The key is getting proper spacing of the blocks before frapping, but that should be the same measurement on each gun. The 2 tackles for running out the gun should be the same measurement. Same for the 2 tackles for lateral adjustment.

 

[donrobinson]

Hey Mike: Great work, I personally am a big fan of frapping I don't care much for coils on the deck (on my builds at least). That looks real good, you just can't beat that Syren rope can you?

[6ohiocav]

That thing looks awesome. In fact if I didn't know how actually tiny that was, I would think that was a full size tackle. I can't wait to see how that looks on the ship.

[mikiek]

Thanks Don and Darrell. And also to Joel for posting the pic of a Constitution carronade that had the line frapped. I never would have even known without that.

 

Coils are nice, but at 1:64 there isn't much room for 5 coils at each gun. Plus IMO the .012 line doesn't coil well.

[jbshan]

Mike, some people make up a coil off the model, then place it on deck with the fall of the tackle disappearing under the coil, as if it were all one line.  If frapping works for you, frap away, it looks good, too.

[mikiek]

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing coils or those that do them. It's purely a personal preference. Had I decided to cut back on the number of tackles per gun, a coil on each side would look very cool.

[GuntherMT]

The .012 line will coil nicely if it's well soaked in a 50/50 glue/water mix, just FYI.  

[mikiek]

Question for the group. If the upper tackle in this pic is frapped. What is the bottom one called? Or at the very least how is it done?

 

[GuntherMT]

No idea what it's called, but it looks like they simply doubled it and looped it through itself on the bulkhead end, then tied it off somehow on the inboard end (although there might even be a small seizing holding the end midway it looks like).

 

Interesting way of handling it.

[scott larkins]

Thanks for that pic.  i'm adding it to my collection so I can make my ship look as accurate as possible.

[mikiek]

Scott - if you are referring to the carronade pic I think it comes from Constitution.  There are several of us Niagara builders who are at, or just completed the gun setup, and we have had a lot of good discussion on part/rope sizes as well as what to do with the excess rope for each gun tackle. The pic shows one technique for dealing with it called frapping (the upper tackle). Of course there is always coiling too. Both methods were used, even on the same boat. For display, it's purely a matter of preference. I think it is fair to say both are historically accurate.

[Julie Mo]

Impressive attention to detail, Mike!

[mikiek]

Thank you Julie Mo!

[mikiek]

I have not given up!!!  Haven't posted to this log in a while. I've had this ridiculous debate with myself over the size rope to use for the tackle - literally lasting for weeks. Plans call for .016 - my choices at hand are .012 or .018 .    Either 25% too small or 13% too big. Had this been over general rigging I would have opted to go along with conventional wisdom and choose .012 but on the guns I just don't think .012 looks beefy enough. Also with the tackles frapped the .018 looks much better. So there you have it. I didn't realize how much that was stressing me out until it was over.

 

Between the gundeck build (yes I am seeing another kit) and some family matters, it has been an effort to work on prepping and stropping blocks/hooks and line. But it is progressing. Also realized today I only have half the carronade sleds built.

[6ohiocav]

Mike,

 

I would go with the smaller - .012. The difference between the two will be difficult, if not impossible, to discern on the model, and the smaller will be easier to pass through the blocks. I have found that if you have to bore too large of a hole on those small blocks, they can split. As I have discussed my tackle lines are even smaller in diameter and I think they look to scale to me.

[mikiek]

Darrell - keep those opinions coming. I believe, we need to be frank with each other on this site. I learn more when I hear a "great job, but...." rather than just the "great job".

 

I am going to make a go of it with the .018.  I will, however alter my plans based on your observation. I have been working an 'assembly line' process to get all the rigging prep work done - blocks reamed, hook stropped, etc.  I was going to have that all completely done before reaving up the blocks and frapping and all that. Instead, I am going to go ahead and completely rig up and install 3-4 guns and see what that looks like. At least that way I will not have wasted all the time and effort if the look is not what I expected.

 

I'll post some pix at that point.

 

Thanks again....

[scott larkins]

Thanks for the heads up Mike.  Good to know.

[mikiek]

OK - my head is on the chopping block tonite. I have finished a couple of carronades with the frapped line. Put out tonite for your viewing pleasure. I think this is the route I am going to follow. The only thing I didn't do yet was trim the last inch of free rope (I want about 1/2") and glue the end to the deck.

 

One disappointing discovery, I thought I had a lot more carronades finished than I did. There were 4 but 2 had a piece knocked off and lost. So today was spent making the brass & styrene parts - yes I said styrene. I also seem to be missing 9 of the bases. Serious problem!

 

Oh, styrene - the crescent moon shaped plates at the lead of the bases. I made the first few from brass strip many months back. It was pretty time consuming, although it was also my first metalworking attempt. I made the rest today from a sheet of black styrene. Less that 60 seconds per piece vs about 5 minutes for the brass version and they are already colored black. Brass is on the right.

 

 

The gun tackles were actually pretty easy. I hooked up the blocks to the appropriate eyebolts tightened up the line and glued the free part to one of the other lines. Then I removed the rig and re-hooked it on my serving machine. With a separate piece of rope, I tied a half hitch around the lines just inside the block. Then just ran the serving machine until the line reached the other block. A dot of glue, cut the line, done.

 

Most of you know I have struggled with rope sizes on this effort. I wanted to go .018 as I feel it looks the best in the winding. However the final product was a tad too big - plans call for .016.  So I ended up using .012 for reaving the blocks, then .018 to do the frap on the serving machine. I feel like the size proportions came out pretty good, although some may argue with that.

 

So I installed the 2 good guns, and did a lot of picture taking and reviewing over a few days. I had done 1 in my mock up gun station and was happy with that, but had no idea what multiples might look like. Here's how they ended up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hopefully will have all the gun pieces made tomorrow and can add a few more to the ship.

Edited August 7, 2016 by mikiek

[mikiek]

As a side note, there are several eyebolts fastened into the waterway very close to the eyebolts for the gun tackles. I think I need to figure out what those are for and possibly run some line or blocks or whatever through them before doing the guns. I think they will be darned near impossible to get at once the gun tackles are in place.

[GuntherMT]

Out of curiosity, why did you frap with larger line than the rigging through the blocks?  Since the frapping is the loose end of the same line, it wouldn't be a different size.

 

If you did it because you think it looks better, then cool, I'm just curious.

[mikiek]

Brian - it was absolutely the look. I tried to frap the .012 but when I got a nice tight wind, it kind of blurred together. It was difficult to see any detail in the winding.  I wanted to go with all .018 but the finished tackle looked a little big. Sizewise, I know I'm right on the edge even now, but I can live with it.

 

My first trials were using the free end, but I was having difficulty keeping it from crossing over the double block when I started to wind it up. In hindsight I suppose I could have glued it down right as it came out of the double, but there is already a lot of glue slathered over the blocks.

 

This was kind of a take on another post here somewhere, in which someone described a 'zip frapping' technique. Actually doing the frap with my serving machine was very easy.

Edited August 7, 2016 by mikiek

[GuntherMT]

One of the cool things about this hobby is that each model is unique based on who builds it.  Personally I'd never use frapping because I don't think it looks good, but 'looks' are such a subjective thing that there is no right or wrong when it comes to that sort of thing.

 

In the end, as long as you think it looks good, then that is what matters since you are the one that will be looking at it!

 

I would have never thought of doing the frapping in a serving machine, but now that you've mentioned it, it's such an obvious thing, and really no different than me doing various bits of rigging (other than the full shrouds) between eye-splices in the serving machine.  Just a good idea that clearly works!

[mikiek]

Thank you Brian. I appreciate your honest opinion! We can't improve without them.

[GuntherMT]

There are far too many people who take offense when someone doesn't like what they are doing (when it comes to opinion stuff).  I personally wish more people would give me critical views, it's the only way I learn!

 

Glad you took my words in the way they were intended.

 

While it's nice to get kudo's, likes,  and 'that is awesome', none of those in my opinion, help me improve as a modeler, although they certainly do help provide encouragement!

[6ohiocav]

Mike,

 

This looks great.... Really. I would not change a thing.

 

I like the styrene collars. That was a great idea.

 

I would have never thought of frapping the tackles, but I will definitely give this a try the next time around.

 

I spent the whole weekend cleaning up my stern - gun port framing, and rudder. My journyman metal/soldering skills needed for the gudgeons were seriously taxed.

[mikiek]

There are far too many people who take offense when someone doesn't like what they are doing (when it comes to opinion stuff).  I personally wish more people would give me critical views, it's the only way I learn!

 

Glad you took my words in the way they were intended.

 

While it's nice to get kudo's, likes,  and 'that is awesome', none of those in my opinion, help me improve as a modeler, although they certainly do help provide encouragement!

 

Could not agree more Brian. Well said.   Early on in this log I stated "I leave my ego at the door" . That's a big reason I come to this site - honest opinions and answers.

[mikiek]

Thanks Darrell. Actually the styrene saved me twice. I had lost one of the trucks for a gun base. I happened to have a black styrene sheet 1/16" thick. So I cut out a thin chunk and filed it down to look like the others. The stuff files really well.

 

Congrats on the rudder parts. That will be a tough one for me and coming up soon. Drilling that hole for the rudder in the stern was stressful. And it turns out it wasn't big enough so I am going to have to do it again.

[mikiek]

Hello everyone. It's been a week since I've posted, mainly because there has been a lot of grunt work going on and it's not overly exciting. I mentioned before I had only 4 completed carronades when I began to rig them. So I'm making all the pieces and assembling those.

 

No wonder all his pieces keep falling off I did notice several of the cascables are broken. Not sure if I want to try to fix those - not sure how I would.

 

I'm also trying to rig all the eyebolts in the waterway before going back to the guns.

 

 

This afternoon it is raining, all day actually, so for once with the portable AC running the garage is actually cool. A welcome change.

 

So back to the guns. I'm following Darrell's plan and gluing and rigging all the gun bases first. It just makes good sense. But I believe it's been 2 weeks or more since I frapped a tackle and I have almost forgotten my process. While doing some reading I came across a mention of frapping the gun tackles. Apparently it was a pretty common thing to do while at sea with no nearby threats. Nice to have a little validation on that.

 

 

Sometime in this last week I backtracked a bit and built and installed some hull anchor linings. I just glued some thin strips edge to edge and when that dried, cut it to the shape I wanted. Seems as though the linings were bolted on to the hull , so I am debating whether to add some bolt looking things.

 

 

 

Well at least I'm back on track with the gun rigging again.

[jbshan]

The lining may have been simply nailed on.  It was apparently universal and sacrificial.  Keep your fastenings (simulated) small until you can take a look, or make a sample piece for testing.

Good cat tackle, etc.