HMS SERAPIS by PMG - Aeropiccola

[PMG]

Let's now compare to the "french" version according to wikipedia.

24 x 24pdrs    58512 kgs

22 x 18pdrs    48068 kgs

  6  x others (I assume 6pdrs)  5184 kgs

Total:   111.764    It's  very much. Around 50% more than the original design value.

It's seems to me unlikely to have these heavy guns installed on a 5th rate.

They should eventually be carronades.

 

As a comparison we can considered the experimental armament installed on the "Rainbow"  (also a 44, 5th rate, same class) in 1782.(in 1782, Serapis was already lost)

All carronades: 20 x 68 pdrs

                         20 x 42 pdrs

                           4 x 32 pdrs

A very impressive fire power (but not at long distance) weighing only 58500kgs. This seems more in line with sailing and fighting qualities.

 

I point also the fact that the Aeroppicola kit is supplied with a full set of british flags. I conclude that the designers of the kit were never intended to produce a "french" version of the ship, and I am not sure that precise records of such a version are existing.

 

We have so a broad choice of possible versions to build.... And a lot of fun!

My preferred (but it's too late for me to change) should be 20 x 18 pdrs + 22 x 12 pdrs + 2 x 6 pdrs + 10 x 32 pdrs carronades = in total 54 guns.

 

Pierre

[PMG]

Hello Chris,

I was not aware about a Serapis flag. Can you give me more explanation?

Thank you.

Pierre

[casper1961]

Hi Pierre

 

Thanks for all the information on the guns etc...a very informative read.

 

If you Wiki the HMS Serapis and click on the 24 pounder or 18 pounder listed under the French armament list, you get some very interesting information about what was becoming common place in French service at 1779-1781 period and it is very likely that the numbers are correct for French service to have changed the 20x British 18-pounders on the lower deck to 24-pounders and the 22x  9-pounders on the main deck to 18 pounders plus 6 others which could have been changed from lighter 9 -pounders to 12-pounders as was standard practice...or carronades however there has not been anything said about carronades ever being used on HMS Serapis in British or French service.

 

"From the late 18th Century, the French Navy used the 18-pounder in three capacities: as the main gun on frigates, as the battery on the upper gundeck of two-deckers." and there is also this " Three-deckers used 36-pounders on their lower decks and 24-pounders on their second deck. Until 1803, the third deck was equipped with 12-pounder guns, as a heavier gun would have destabilised the ship; after this date,"

 

So as Pierre mentioned it opens things up as to what configuration you want to build. As for the flag, well the kit supplied a British flag could mean the builder of the kit meant for this to the British version...but who knows what they used for drafting of the drawings etc...

 

I won't say for sure about what HMS Serapis configuration was actually like because I don't think we will ever really know...anything could have been possible including overloading her to the point that in rough seas the lower decks were not usable! Yes there are standards, but these were likely guidelines and if you wanted to put heavier gun batteries in who was to stop you ...look at the Wasa, nobody wanted to tell the King he couldn't have a 3rd deck of guns...they built it anyway knowing it was unstable..

 

Great discussion...thanks all!

 

Steve

[PMG]

OK Chris,

I understand now. It's the flag after capture by J. P. Jones.

I wondered about a british (and of course inexistant) flag.  Thank you for the info.

Pierre

[Jaxboat]

Hi All,

Interesting discussion. For the record I think someone is trying to see An AP model of Bonhomme Richard as part of a 40 kit stash liquidation.

Jaxboat

[ZyXuz]

wow, this ship is actually older than me!!

 

hope to see her done soon!

[PMG]

It's true. The Aeropiccola kit is a great one. High quality wood  etc.

Apparently, mine must be an earlier version without double planking, but it does'nt matter.

If you except some "historical discrepancies" - but we can live with - it's a great model.

 

Some details about painting.

I already told that the "Nelson checker" painting scheme was more than probably not correct. However I followed it.

And it's more difficult than just following the curves of the wales.

At the time I did it, I think that the very good Admiralty paints of Caldercraft were not existing.

Finally, to be closer to the epoque colours I decided to use artist oil paints with true pigments as available in the time.

It gives a good result. Not always easy to apply (you have to dilute it a little bit, but not too much). The black is nice.

For the yellow, I used the pure yellow occre with a small addition of white. Finally, it appears a little bit too clear. It's a question of point of view.

The main problem with these paints is the time of drying. It's often better to wait 2 or 3 weeks to have it perfectly dry and pass the varnish.

Absolutely not recommended for Mobbsie!

 

Pierre

[PMG]

This is a picture of the paint I used on my HMS SERAPIS.

[PMG]

I forgot to tell you that HMS SERAPIS was the first ship of that size to come coppered out of the shipyard.

Coppering was not foreseen in the kit.

Around 30 years ago I found in an hobby shop in Ostend some very nice copper plates with small holes to put nails in.

But I got only 100 of. later, I found another 100.

Finally, I found in Como (Italy) a box of 500. But it is still not enough.

 

On the first pictures of my Serapis you can see my first attempt of coppering.

I used contact glue for. But, with the time, it appeared not to be the right choice.

Now, I don't know what I will do. If I cannot find more of the original plates I will be obliged to change and redo the job.

That's will be for later...

Pierre

[WackoWolf]

Is there no way you could make the rest that you need yourself. Can you post a picture of a plate ( as close up as possible) so that we could maybe come up with a way so that you could make them yourself. Just my 2 cents.

[PMG]

Here is a better (I hope) picture of the plates.

Their size is 8mm x 18 mm. You can perhaps see that they are bordered by small holes.

These holes doesn't seems to have been made by punching as there is no protuberation at all.

Apparently they are drilled, but I wonder.

 

I did an attemps to make them myself. I therefore bought thin copper plates (0.5 mm thick) from a printer.

In the old time, printers (the man not the machine) were using thin copper plates.

I cutted in slices. Not very easy. But finally, I stopped because I found myself totally unable to drill the holes in straight line following the requested pattern.

I saved these plates for places like the rudder and may be the keel.

I already told that the glue I used was absolutely not the right one.

I will so be obliged to remove all the plates. I wonder if, in such a case, the best should not be to by a new set (by Jotika for example) and redo all the job.

Pierre

 

[WackoWolf]

Maybe try drilling the holes first and then cut them up. Just a thought.

[PMG]

I made an attemps with my small drilling machine.

But, the holes gave a diameter of 0,5 or 0,6 mm. And if they are not perfectly in line, the effect is very poor.

The accuracy of my machine is not sufficient to guarantee such an alignment. And with 0,5 or 0,6 mm drills, I expect a high rate of attrition...

I think, I shall put all new plates from Jotika. But I shall do it later, after a succesful trial on my Agamemnon.

Pierre

[casper1961]

Hi Pierre

 

I think if it were me, I would buy the copper tape and roller dimpler and start over. To me all the drilling and cutting would drive me crazy. You are probably aware that there are other copper plates already dimpled and cut to size...they are pricey but a great time saver.

 

Just a thought.

 

Steve

[PMG]

Thank you for the advise, Steve.

Anyway, if I don't find other drilled plates like the originals (they are nice, but I I think there are none to find anymore) I will be obliged to choose another solution.

Thanks again,

Pierre

[mobbsie]

Hi Pierre,

 

You have a bit of a dilemma there mate, my thoughts are that unless you have the materials and the machinery to do the job correctly it's time to call it a day and buy new plates.

 

From what you have said you've looked at it from every direction and still can't come up with a satisfactory conclusion, time I think to give in gracefully.

 

When you start on plating the Aggie I found it easier to put two small dabs of thick CA on the plate, I tried putting the CA on the planks and then place the plate, but it ended up getting messy due to the glue drifting over the edge of the plate.

 

Hope this helps mate.

 

mobbsie

[Blue Ensign]

An attractive looking model Pierre, and I love the way you have completed the Quarter Galleries.

 

I was moved to see what Rif Winfield had to say about Serapis in his reference work British Warships in the age of sail 1714 - 1792.

 

Built by Randall & Co Rotherhithe. 44 gun 5th rate revived Roebuck Class

As built 140ft 4" X 38ft 2" launched 1779.

 

Captured by the Bonhomme Richard 23/09/1779 after  fierce battle following which the Bonhomme Richard sank. She was transferred to the French Navy but was burnt by accident off Madagascar July 1781.

 

The class name vessel Roebuck was commisssioned in 1775, 140ft x 37ft 10" she was armed with 20 x 18 pounders on the gun deck 22 x 9 pounders on the Upper deck (later 12 pounders) and 2 x 6 pounders on the Foc'sle. She has a long career being broken up in 1811.

 

19 revised Roebuck class ships were built, the name Serapis was re-issued to a new vessel of the class built in 1780.

 

I look forward to seeing your build continue.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

 

[Barbossa]

Hello Pierre,

 

very sound advice from Mobbsie, I would do the same and purchase through Caldercraft or similar.

I've met my own limitations quite a few times in my current build and I even plan to start a topic under " General discussion" called : "Silly ideas, what was I thinking". It is about how I tried to avoid fixing the supplied cannonballs around the gratings. Thought I had a plan B for this but it went totally wrong.

 

[PMG]

Thanks to all friends for the comments and precious advises.

I will take these plates off and place new ones once the hull is completed.

The old ones, I have 800 or 900 of, will be used, later on another (future?) ship.

Pierre

[onso77]

I have bought just yesterday an old wooden already built kit of the HMS SERAPIS 1/60 scale or 1/64 if you prefer, I bought it for $30.00 only but it is in pretty rough shape, I am not sure I will have the courage to fix it up as I do not have a good blueprint especially for the rigging part. I am not an expert on ship building but I do love model kits especially military ones from ww 11. I will post photos of it as soon as I have the time, I am going on vacation till August 24 or so.

 

John

[PMG]

Hello John,

Sorry for answering so late, but I was also on vacation.

Serapis is a fine ship, even if not 100 per cent accurate. I have all the blueprints but they are very large.

About the rigging, no big problem. They just copied all details from "the anatomy of Nelson's ships" by Nepean Longridge.

If you can get the book, you have all what you need...

Very happy to see your photos when they are available.

Pierre

[Serapis1779]

How is your Serapis coming a long. Would love to see new photos and hear about your progress.

[casper1961]

I myself haven't progressed since I first posted here. Life seemed to get in the way as it has a habit of doing.

 

I still have 7 or more tall ships kits to build including finishing the HMS Serapis. Instead of golfing when/if I ever retire, this will be what occupies my time among other things.

 

I hope these posts find their way to my co-poster Pierre aka PMG and that hehis health is fine and he is doing well and was able to complete his build.

 

I look forward to hearing from all.

 

Cheers

Steve

[Serapis1779]

Seems I had to retire also, and that was five years ago.  During that time, my basement working area nearly got unnavigable due to storage of personal stuff belonging to numerous family members. And there was another major hobby project that wound up higher on the list (large high rail Lionel train layout).

Finally, last summer, I shifted to back to ships, and finished off a couple of plastic galleons, I got as a gift. One they were out of the way I see resumed work on Serapis in late winter.

 

[PMG]

Dear friends,

It's a long time ago, but thank you to wake me up.

Actually, I was involved in a lot of relatively big projects. I retired in 2006 and all my children are away. My house was a little bit too big for my wife and myself and so we decided to build a new one just near the old one. It took us two years. And then we had to move and to empty the old house (a lot of work as the new one is definitively smaller than the old one). I needed also a certain time to arrange the roof the way I wanted to have a nice place for shipbuilding.

All of this is now on a good way, and some weeks ago I considered to work again on my Serapis (I bought her also more than 30 years ago...).

First, some repairs. One of our cats bite a cathead (it's true). Imade a new one. Then, I have to continue the quarter deck. I decided to move the wheel in front of the mizzen mast. If you look to drawings of the HMS Roebuck by exemple, you see that the wheel is always in front of the mast. The wheel is on a strange place on the drawings of Aeropiccola.

You gave me now a good incentive to continue, and in the coming days I shall send you some photos.

Best regards,

Pierre

[Beef Wellington]

Lovely work Pierre, can't wait to see some pictures soon.  Really is a fine looking kit, the stern looks particularly impressive, think some modern kits could learn a thing or two from this.

[casper1961]

Hey Pierre

 

Glad to hear you are well and that it was as in my case, simply life getting in the way of our hobbies.

 

I too, find myself ready to move this summer, hopefully for the last time for many years. I'm trying to set myself up for my retirement.....or later years as it will probably be more like. I find myself either buying or building as well.

 

Take care...good to hear from you and i look forward to your continued log.

 

Cheers

Steve