Reale De France by 72Nova - FINISHED - Heller

[kirill4]

Yes , it is very good!

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

 

On 4/13/2019 at 3:50 AM, safemaster said:

I started this about 3 months ago after finishing my Victory of 1765, while not up to par with some of the wooden builds I've seen it looks okay

Here's a current picture and the link to my album.

 

Michael D

 

 

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOILn2VCXaodxNscquqLtI5G8q6YXOkR21cmpvKZRI43H-OsgHUANk9p472cH-GsQ?key=OWszVld0a0M4LUZKZnNvTWZ1eC1aSXJDY2FiOF9R

I do like your build very much - the hole golden panels may get a bit more crisp by adding a carefull drop of brown or sepia ink into it's "valleys" pronouncing the deep and shadows, you ever thought about this? 

 

There was only one prestige version of the 12 galleys wearing the name LA REALE DE FRANCE (1538,1639,1668, 1669, 1673, 1679, 1683, 1723,1734) and this extraordenary prestige  was build in 1662 - so we may have to deal with this third old galley and the circumstancrs of baroque colouring and pigmentations of colours. 

 

 

As I "found" her in my stash of  modelkits I am very pleased by watching you at your built looking for all these astonishing fiddley details awaiting me, too. 

 

I am a bit doubtfull to the huge areas of blue colour at the hull and so deep down to the waterline as the expensive blue pigments were simply rubbed away by the floating water when the galley is in action. 

 

 

But this oil painting tells some other contemporary story... is it a realist picture or a propaganda product topraise the sunking and his Mediterranean fleet? 

 

 

 

This is a Baltic Sea Russian galley with a wooden planking above the white... 

 

 

...and some Mediterranean galley in a cheap minum pure red - I a bit playing with all these opportunities to find my way to "right solution" - and so I am fascinated by your way doing it so believable. 

Here I am at my end as all my literature is boxed till my removal is over - I do have at hand books about Chebexe Tartane and other latin rigged ships of the mediteranian sea. Hopefully untill thuesday I will made my way through to them and add these pictures hopefully helpfull to your build. I have to admit I do only own German literature and have to figure out these termici technici I do not know as I didn't learn at school. At Hamlet Act 4 Sc. VI there is only one sentence about naval themes: 

 

 

 

SERVANT

"Seafaring men, sir. They say they have letters for you."

😜

 

So your building is very inspiring to me and if I can give any helpfull advise from my literature about Galleys by Mondfeld and Paris I would glad being supporting your great build. 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

As I only have got a not absoloutly but closer 

 

contemporary Tartane's Monography on hand. Due to this I can post the detailing of the mastheads and some blocks and details for you hoping this does do some help to you:

Here the source as you certainly know it. 

 

The mastheads in detail and theyr connection/joint to the mast

 

The "yards" and blocks as being made for a smaller ship as a Tartane was. 

 

Here the blocks for lifting the "yards" and the rounds keeping the "yard" close to the mast. 

 

I just hurried into the booklet picking out the pictures. If you do need further details please do not hesitate to ask for it. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Picture added

[kirill4]

"...But this oil painting tells some other contemporary story... is it a realist picture or a propaganda product topraise the sunking and his Mediterranean fleet?..."

 

Let's  consider all models of galleys in French museums and another contemporary pictires of SUN KING fleet vessels ,not only galleys,where we could see using of the  same" dark  " blue" color in use ?

:)))...

By my private opinion ,at least , if we could accept that  gold leafs for coloring of all this carvings of this Royal Galley , as a single unit which represents King, Royal Power, and the same version of gilding galley carvings ,we could find in museum, were used,

why we should doubt that Louus XIV King didn' t find resourses to use royal blue for His Magesty galley as well?

Even in purpose of ,as You said ,propaganda , of couse ,it should work as pure  propaganda For benefit of SUN KING Power ! :)))

And ,even from estetic point of vew,this combination of gold and dark blue works exellent! :)))

Edited February 21, 2021 by kirill4

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Thanks fot the answers and questions, Kirill, certainly it does look phantastic and were are used to belief in the sources so we might find a historical accurate way to modify the kit.

 

But for generations the VASA has to be a blue ang gold model as these were the colours of the

 

til today relevant Swedish royal cote of arms. 

 

But as the rest of colour on the wrecksite gave evidence to us... 

 

...she was mainly red as the main model beside the original VASA (in the background) in Stockholm tells us. 

 

And the same turn around is at SOLEIL ROYAL, to - look in here: 

 

 

Here the direct link into the bauty of the sunking's ship decorations and historical reasons and evidences. 

 

 

If you do stay with your absoloutly beautiful blue colouring I am fine with it. Go straight forward with the build and impress us with further examples of the art of modelbuilding you do show. I do absoloutly love it. As there is only one galley called "extraordinare" you may be very right absoloutly. 

 

Here two further connected relayable sources I digged out some in here may not know :

 

https://ancre.fr/en/monograph/106-la-fleur-de-lis-galere-1690.html

 

http://b.rimlinger.free.fr/galere27.htm

 

What about the old idea the hull was covered with blue fabric and the fleur-de-lis were there to keep the blue linen (?) cloth in place? 

 

 

 

As I figured out to be seen in here and better in here:

 

Hope this was helpfull as your argument of "Wealthy men could afford everything." is a absolutely a very very strong argument indeed.

 

In Venice was a salesman who came to partys with a leaf golded nose. This was to the German merchants as impressing as there is till today the saying: "sich eine goldene Nase verdienen" (to earn yourself a golden nose on s. th.). And nothing is shure than death 'n' taxes - so the sunking only had to tell is secretary of financial affairs to turn the tax screw... 

 

So there are your arguments what do really look right. 

 

But the most important thing is to keep the fun innthe hobby not beating it out like sweets from a Pinjata. 

 

P. S:

...same today: in Germany we pay for sparkling wine till the 09.V.1902 an extra tax being introduced for financial back up to the Hochseeflotte of her Majesty Wilhelm II. who wants to beable to withstand the Royal Navy - not the German merchant shipping on their routs depending  on the British good will alone. But also the fleet was being feet with it was scutteled in 1919 at Scapa Flow... So in my oppositional oppinion to Merkel all the money of the last 102 years has had to be given back to public* OR we do rise and rebuild the last wreck SMS KRONPRINZ WILHELM to rebuild her and start to build a museum and national monument for these unmatched German fleet. Getting grumpy on this theme. 

 

 

______

*Hahahahaha... but we could tell you how many mony did came in due to this tax on pound/shilling/red penny. **

______

**Writing at all was invented 4500 years ago for only these purposes - "the next important invention is the electrical guitar in 1951" (Dr. Irving Finkel, curator in the British Museum London for cuneiform tablets {as ge told us for the next 500 years} watch him. at youtube and pick up a smile). 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added picture of the VASA's risen wreck's model.

[kirill4]

Good day,

Dear Christian Heinrich,

Thank You very much for information, especialy I liked link to the galley building log which You gave!

This is fantastic buld and I 've found a lot of interesting detsils in rigging and construction...

As to the styles of decoration...Franvkly speaking I don't know too much to participate in good hystoric discussions :)))

just some time ago I saw a few contemporary pictures of SUN KING vessels which clear demonstrate specific use of blue(or dark blue) and " gold" colors during Louis XIV period, including that picture of Royal Galley which was posted above...

later on I saw evidance , like a Anckre publishing book about St.Philippe , which irepresent vessel  entire painted red and " gold",that not only blue/gold was used :)))

Marc experiments with alternative SR coloring I like very much and found very interesting, but can't fully agree :))) for me personal , thus style more belongs to the end of 16 th early part of 17th century barocco, such as Vasa coloring is good example, but not as characteristic of later part of 17th century when more monochromic style for carving painting was prefered -

here ,for example,we could compare two models of 17th century - Prince Willem( more close to Vasa style of colors) and William Rex, how their carvings are painted and how they are different in colors use...:)
 

 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Yes Kirill, you are absolutly right for paintings and non swimming models for museums and the navy board... but in contact to salty water, rain and waves in real water we do discuss something completely different is may point of view in these harsty conditions at the outside of the habour thinks do change dramatically from healthy to worst. So I got these information from Dr. rer. nat. Kremer who fitted out several reconstruction society's ships with pigments oil and knowledge. Here his website: 

 

https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/

 

 

THE CLASH OF KNOWLEDGE AND OPINIONS* 

As you do not know a lot about good historical discussion you do stand your ground very well - and I do appreciate a healthy thing like a late night bar fight using woodennchairs and entering the hospital in a group afterwards. 😉 

 

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-1301-la-reale-france--168013

 

I really do think if we do accept everything that is told us by the model kit companies

 

(here since 46 years) in may be never upgraded instruction manuals we do not model ship building or even historical modelshipbuilding - I would only do "kitsglueingtogether" as I did before. And as you, Kirill, do long for the extra mile for detailling I think you are willing to look on the for some most unloved side of kit bashing - the research work being done to get the kit transferred into a mostly historical correct model. (As one of our German top modelbuilders wrote "no model is perfect". All of hist models in museums are with failures - he agreed - in one the only door to the main deck cannot be opend totally and in the other the officer will run directly into the mizzen mast leaving stairs upstairs.)  So these is human work - and errors do happen. So if mankind wants progress errors are the price to pay like every few years some pair new shoes if you do trecking. 

 

 

TEST ROW OF ORIGINALLY REDONE PIGMENTS FOREWARD OF US

 

I just ordered small amounts 100gs of colour pigment (red, green, blue, and black) for testing on cut oak and poplar sheets with leenoil. So I can tell at the very end hopefully exactly about the aimed for and gotten results in a few weeks. Than we are after "icy/cold St. Sophia" (14.May) and I can go into garden and take pictures of the gotten effect in bright daylight. Till then I am also very doubtfull and your argumentativ path is really good. 

 

 

LITERATURE

As I do belief in books, progress by knowledge and mind changing literature I do own some books or being more exactly 6.6 tons of them. 

 

 

I do own several books about the colours and two in particular to the beautiful colour blue. So this above one of them for about 70 Euros was purchased. You can leaf through it online:

https://books.google.de/books?id=ZZWFDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=müllerschön+die+farbe+blau+deutsche+Bibliothek&source=bl&ots=AK_TzCe7vm&sig=ACfU3U3N3FMoHrUFUsGu0kUMMaNWifZ7Hg&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZ0on7l_3uAhWIO-wKHRVAAxwQ6AEwD3oECAkQAg#v=onepage&q=müllerschön die farbe blau deutsche Bibliothek&f=false

 

To my horror, all these books they are boxed for removal in between named boxes "Ship N° 1" upto "Ships N° 22". So we have to wait. Sorry for this. But I can't reopen every box to search for them. 

 

So I do appreciate your kind intrest in my detailing links very much as galleys are thebgreyhounds of the baroque and I still do look for some much smaller and more often build prototype - a fellucca with four to twelve pairs of ores.

 

In this book is a smaller galley and also a good set of plans for a scratch build less detailed and less expensive and Gerhard Delacroix's FLEUR DE LIS for 160 Euros - but you get what you pay for - what you don't pay you wouldn't get. ThevAncre monography does deal very precisely with one particular ship the other book does give an opportunity for building a single ship not that deeply researched. But the Mondfeld is a small first entrance into scratchbuilding a french galley. The Mondfeld's book does  give an overview of history functions building techniques and designs for about 30 to 50 Euros incl. p&p.

 

Hopefully you are not attacked by  this long text - as I just haven't got the time to keep the sentences and thoughts short. 

______

*...not "onions" stupid spell checker programm!

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hy Kirril.,from MODEL REDUIT de BATEAU N°289 1987 P.15 this picture

 

of the decoration of LE REALE DE FRANCE of the end of the XVIIth century - remakably there is a globus under the couronnament:

 

Sorry for the bad quality but I saw this at storing booklets in my removal boxes and thought this might be helpful with its

 

Very interesting is the starboard Monogramm is really a mirrowed L 👌🏻

 

 

Pairs of Renommees on clouds 

 

 

a pair of Tritons - all cravings made from poplar. 

 

And again covering the Apollo chariot from the Versailles' fountain. I decided to mahe the text banners from frostpaper been soaked in super glue so they are thin but strong and stiff. 

 

Here is a balcony's bulkwalk/handrail with very fine carvings. 

In the text there is no deeper information what REAL DE FRANCE is the concretely bearer of this decoration. As we know that the sculpturing very often was bequested/inheritanced from the older to the younger ship I do assume this did happen with galleys in thevsame way. So we may see the decoration of the 1666 prestige galley extraordinarily equipped. 

I would like to give you some deeper information but there is very little sentences about this particular item in this interview:

 

Ils evoquent la decoration de la pore d'une la galere a la fin du 17e siecle : la "Reale", la galere du "General des Galeres"... I did with my rest of latin and common sense do translate very roughly as: >>(...) The decoration of a galley of the end of the XVIIth century is the one if LA REALE the galley of the General of the Galleys". <<. Anybody with proper knowledge of French may correct me, please! 

 

So it may be identical to our Heller kit and we are in the lucky condition to figure out more about the survived decoration and sculpturing. 

 

As I do not now it better the kit is in it's box...

 

... I do think this may be the figurehead or a decoation on the front of the officer's handrail. 

 

 

Perhaps this beautiful arrangement is still on display in the Musee de la Marine and there are newer and more detailled pictures on Flickr or anywhere else to support your building process. 

 

What do you think about my ideas? 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Picture added

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Here the recent situation on display

 

 

as in situ at the galley's transom. 

 

and the "figurehead" went at top or is it correctly displayed over there? 

Ahhh my mirrowed L is also installed on the starboard side. 

 

 

And in the kit of a colleague it does look like this... 

 

 

so it is obvious that we do deal with the very same decoation. 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[72Nova]

Hi Christian,

Thank you very much for the wealth of information you supplied especially the Galley build log. I'm with Kirill on my limited knowledge about Galley's to provide any viable information, only what I have seen regarding paintings, models etc and they all differ when comparing the decorations, colors and even the rigging....in the end it comes down to one's artistic license they choose to apply in these areas while trying be as accurate as possible. As you probably have figured out I'm basing my scheme/build off the model in the Pairs maritime museum, to me it just looks right and the lack of paint on the benches and thwarts seem to be more realistic.

Thanks again for the all the info you have been providing.

 

Michael D.

[Hubac's Historian]

You are doing a fabulous job, Michael.  Is that real gold leaf, or a really good facsimile?

[kirill4]

Good day,

Dear Christian Heinrich,

THANKS again for all this very interesting details!!!

And link to the  pigments maker company...it is very interesting!

Edited February 22, 2021 by kirill4

[kirill4]

Most probably ,it is " gold" leaf :)))(potal,which is quite cheap ,but gives exelent gilding effect ! )

real gold leaf maybe is a little bit too much for plastic model :)))

but I don't know for sure  , what Michael used ! :)))

may be - Gold!!! :)))

[72Nova]

Thank you for the compliment!. The answer to Hubac's and Kirill's question is 24 Karat Genuine Gold Leaf advertised as 99.9% pure gold, 10 sheets for approx $30 USD, not terribly expensive.

Michael D.

Edited February 22, 2021 by safemaster

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

17 hours ago, safemaster said:

Hi Christian,

Thank you very much for the wealth of information you supplied especially the Galley build log. I'm with Kirill on my limited knowledge about Galley's to provide any viable information, only what I have seen regarding paintings, models etc and they all differ when comparing the decorations, colors and even the rigging....in the end it comes down to one's artistic license they choose to apply in these areas while trying be as accurate as possible. As you probably have figured out I'm basing my scheme/build off the model in the Pairs maritime museum, to me it just looks right and the lack of paint on the benches and thwarts seem to be more realistic.

Thanks again for the all the info you have been providing.

 

Michael D.

Hy Michael and Kirill, 

 

we all do start in a theme for the first time. There is no othervway then starting to read listen and learn. So the very same I did also to get the knowledge over the time. The way is the way to go. So ask and look foreward there is a plenty to learn. 

The Ideavof leaf golden plastic parts doeschave it's own interstingly aspect. Would like to know how you do this complex and fiddly job.

 

(I still do use a bronze canned spray *duck&cover* to get my gold and bronze imitation)

 

here the comparison between the china tea bone imitating resin and my Goldbronze plus Sepia ink. Two of them sanded and glued back to back make a start. And then brutally surgiany drilling out their spine will make the one side of the stand.

 

My personal goal is always to get a bit more out of the box than the company put into the kit.  Bashing is fun. 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Picture added

[Hubac's Historian]

Wow - well, that is impressive indeed!  How do you brush the varnish onto these complicated shapes - without bleeding onto the carving ground - and still have enough open time to apply the leaf?  In other words, how much open time do you have before the varnish won’t still be tacky enough to hold the leaf?

 

Or, do you simply blanket the part in leaf and then go back and carefully - ever so carefully - paint the ground?

Edited February 22, 2021 by Hubac's Historian

[kirill4]

OH! Gold! -that is impressive !

[72Nova]

Regarding the application of the gold leaf I used a water based adhesive made by Martha Stewart I picked up at Michael's craft store and this stays quite tacky for hours, so you have plenty of time. I usually wait 30 minutes before applying  the leaf and having a gold base helps as the leaf will tear when pressed into the crevices and blend in, it's best working with smaller pieces since this stuff is so fragile. Whats nice about the water base adhesive is if I over shot the area I plan to guild, a sharpened tooth pick will gently rub the excess away without damaging the painted area, this was very helpful when doing the Fleur de Lis on the hull. I also use masking tape for a nice clean edge where needed before applying the glue and once the leaf is applied I run a fresh blade over the tape line before removing, hope this helps?

 

Michael D.

[GrandpaPhil]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:23 AM, kirill4 said:

This is galeass but however rigging details could be similar to galera riging?

and some pictures of gallera model... I don' t know who is author of this model,but it made in very high level...may it could be usefull in Your building.?..

Out of curiosity, where were you able to find a plan for a Galleass?  I would very much like  to be able to build one.  Thank you very much.

[kirill4]

Good day,

GrandpaPhil,

This is from album,if I ' m not mistaken...or book...?

[kirill4]

For GrandpaPhil

Here, find galeasse in vol2

Souvenir de marine

Souvenir de Marine. vol. 1.zip Souvenir de Marine. vol. 2.zip

Souvenir de Marine. vol. 3.zip

Edited February 23, 2021 by kirill4

[kirill4]

On 2/23/2021 at 12:54 AM, Hubac's Historian said:

Wow - well, that is impressive indeed!  How do you brush the varnish onto these complicated shapes - without bleeding onto the carving ground - and still have enough open time to apply the leaf?  In other words, how much open time do you have before the varnish won’t still be tacky enough to hold the leaf?

 

Or, do you simply blanket the part in leaf and then go back and carefully - ever so carefully - paint the ground?

Using "Fake" gold leafe,сalled "potal" You will have exelent gilding effect as well...much better than any gold paint could make...special glue for potal will be find in the same place , together with purchasing potal...

Sure real 24 carat gold leafe ,is the next,high level!!! :)))

But visually , they looks very similar ,?identical?... potal ,to avoid oxiditation in future ,could be covered by gloss acrylic laquer...

When/ where nessasary, glue could be applied by artist brushes,fine or rough depend on relief detail, potal will be clued exactly to this area...thus even every thiny details will be gilded...excessive,not clued potal easily could be removed/ swipped off by brushI used short ,cutted/trimmed manualy "hard " artist brush for final smooth potal after applying to the clued area...

[GrandpaPhil]

Thank you very much!

[72Nova]

I had to redo the mast by sanding down the molded band for the shrouds as there was just not enough room since these are clinched around the mast individually, I used 0.80mm line and still need to seize them before adding the band. I also started working on the yards by sanding them down and adding a rib using 1.0mm half round styrene, on a mast this would be called a fish.

Michael D.

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Excellent!  I just love the wood effects.

[72Nova]

I have the shrouds seized and used a woolding to secure them to the mast, the port side is complete with the garland, all in all not too bad.

 

Michael D.

 

[fmodajr]

On 2/24/2021 at 9:16 PM, safemaster said:

I have the shrouds seized and used a woolding to secure them to the mast, the port side is complete with the garland, all in all not too bad.

 

Michael D.

 

Beautiful detail!

Can you give me some direction on how you accomplished what I assume is called the "Garland"? Or the wrap with the X stitching?

Very nice

 

Frank

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

On 2/23/2021 at 6:16 PM, GrandpaPhil said:

Out of curiosity, where were you able to find a plan for a Galleass?  I would very much like  to be able to build one.  Thank you very much.

You can buy this booklet (titel in the picture above) at booklooker or ebay for about US-$20 and DRACENE is a flotilla leader. Mondfeld wrote the decoration was made in parts by Pierre Puget. The drawings are quite basic due to the only outline drawings of the hole decoration. The four "Tafel I to IV" sheets are in the back of the book. It is very important that this is noted in the discription's text.

 

Here some pictures for your...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hope this helps for your built. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[GrandpaPhil]

Very nice, thank you very much!

[Hubac's Historian]

The main thing that intimidates me about ship modeling is the rigging; in particular, neat servings, and lashings make such a huge impact on the model’s final appearance.  Do you have any advice, Michael, with regard to how you first learned to approach these techniques.