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Solid Hull Carving Question About Bulwarks


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I am considering building the Model Shipways Kate Cory.  I have looked at a number of logs and Model Shipways model ship instructions and practicums and find two approaches to carving.  They are to either leave the bulwarks on and carve away or cut them off at the start and add them later. The practicum on the Sultana is fairly clear that the bulwarks on the raw hull should be taken off. The Kate Cory instructions say cutting bulwarks off is an option.  The Phantom, Dapper Tom and Elsie don't seem to mention an option.  My question is this, from experienced solid hull builders, what is the easiest and/or best approach to to take?  My previous experience with solid hull builds was an old Scientific Models Cutty Sark which had no bulwarks on the raw hull.

Paul

 

Cutty Sark, Scientific Models (no build log)

18th Century Armed Longboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Coffee Wagon and Limber, Model Shipways side project

New Bedford Whaleboat, Model Shipways

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Cutting down to the top of the deck beam level and using veneer for the bulwarks - getting a uniform plank thickness is easier.  It also allows for an easier way to do the removable opening. It is also helpful if the upper works planking is simulated using extra thin veneer from the copper to the rail.

 

Consider this also,  if you copper, and the material that has been supplied has simulated nails, replace it with flat stock.  To avoid the new penny look, age it.  A flame treatment works,  but to get a dependable bond - the glue side needs to have the oxide layer that the flame produced = removed.

There are chemical aging agents.

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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    I have tried both methods and as I am currently building the Phantom, I am of the opinion that they should be taken off.  I took it one step farther, by carving the additional thickness of the planking off of that portion of the hull above the coppered bottom. (There was no reason to carve and re-plank below the coppered area as it will be covered anyway.)  Then I notched the hull for the stanchions to give me something to apply the planked bulwarks to.  (This also makes it easier to put the scuppers in.)  The only thing that I would do different would be to put a very slight bevel to edge of the planks, as once the hull is painted it is very hard to discern the individual planks. :(

    If you have access to old issues of Seaways Ships-In-Scale magazine in the May/June 1992 issue, there is a description of a process similar to my method used by Robert Evans on building your MS Kate Cory kit. 

    There is also an article on building the Mary Taylor by Clare Hess in the same magazine from the March/April through July/August 2013 issues using a similar method.  

Dave

“You’ve just got to know your limitations”  Dirty Harry

Current Builds:  Modified MS 1/8” scale Phantom, and modified plastic/wood hybrid of Aurora 1:87 scale whaling bark Wanderer.

Past Builds: (Done & sold) 1/8” scale A.J. Fisher 2 mast schooner Challenge, 1/6” scale scratch built whaler Wanderer w/ plans & fittings from A.J. Fisher, and numerous plastic kits including 1/8” scale Revell U.S.S. Constitution (twice), Cutty Sark, and Mayflower.

                  (Done & in dry dock) Modified 1/8” scale Revell U.S.S. Constitution w/ wooden deck and masting [too close encounter w/conc. floor in move]

Hope to get to builds: MS 3/16” scale Pride of Baltimore II,  MS 1/2” scale pinky schooner Glad Tidings,  a scratch build 3/16” scale  Phantom, and a scratch build 3/16" scale Denis Sullivan.

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Thank you Jaager and Betaqdave, I believe you have laid a good case for cutting the bulwarks off. I was somewhat hesitant to do this as it seemed drastic and definite. Do either of you or does anyone in the community have a copy of the articles Betaqdave mentioned who could make me a copy since I am sure they are no longer in print?  I would also be willing to purchase a copy of the magazines.  Thanks again for your help as I will probably cut them off. 

Paul

 

Cutty Sark, Scientific Models (no build log)

18th Century Armed Longboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Coffee Wagon and Limber, Model Shipways side project

New Bedford Whaleboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Gatling Gun, Model Shipways side project

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The 1992 article is on a CD for sale on the NRG store page.

NRG member 45 years

 

Current:  

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner -  framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner -  timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835  ship - timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  -  timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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18 minutes ago, Jaager said:

The 1992 article is on a CD for sale on the NRG store page.

Thanks, just ordered it.

Paul

 

Cutty Sark, Scientific Models (no build log)

18th Century Armed Longboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Coffee Wagon and Limber, Model Shipways side project

New Bedford Whaleboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Gatling Gun, Model Shipways side project

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I wonder why the included instruction manuals still favor carving the bulwarks and refer to cutting them off only as an option?  Is it perhaps just left over from another age??  It seems that the carving machines could be easily refigured or else perhaps they made a big run some time ago and have a big stock.

Paul

 

Cutty Sark, Scientific Models (no build log)

18th Century Armed Longboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Coffee Wagon and Limber, Model Shipways side project

New Bedford Whaleboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Gatling Gun, Model Shipways side project

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4 hours ago, Jaager said:

Consider this also,  if you copper, and the material that has been supplied has simulated nails, replace it with flat stock.  To avoid the new penny look, age it.  A flame treatment works,  but to get a dependable bond - the glue side needs to have the oxide layer that the flame produced = removed.

There are chemical aging agents.

Is it possible to use chemical aging by applying Metal Black with a Q-tip or brush after the copper is applied?  I would not want to have the glue run or loosen the plates,

Paul

 

Cutty Sark, Scientific Models (no build log)

18th Century Armed Longboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Coffee Wagon and Limber, Model Shipways side project

New Bedford Whaleboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Gatling Gun, Model Shipways side project

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37 minutes ago, Dr PS - Paul Schulze said:

Do either of you or does anyone in the community have a copy of the articles Betaqdave mentioned who could make me a copy since I am sure they are no longer in print?  I would also be willing to purchase a copy of the magazines.  Thanks again for your help as I will probably cut them off. 

The entire collection of Ships in Scale (except for 2011-2018 - coming soon) is available from the NRG store as Jaeger said.  NRG members get a 20% discount from the prices shown.

If you just want the one article contact the NRG office - see the web site for phone - ask Mary to have me make you a copy.  We have many of the Journal articles available singly and some day will have them all and I do up ones that we don't have upon request - so I can do it for this article from SiS.  The charge is $2.50 by pay pal and it is emailed as a PDF.

 

Kurt

 

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30 minutes ago, Dr PS - Paul Schulze said:

It seems that the carving machines could be easily prefigured or else perhaps they made a big run some time ago and have a big stock.

    According to the manufacturers, they are left thick to protect them from being broken when packaged or shipped.  The stern is also done that way for the same reason.

Dave

“You’ve just got to know your limitations”  Dirty Harry

Current Builds:  Modified MS 1/8” scale Phantom, and modified plastic/wood hybrid of Aurora 1:87 scale whaling bark Wanderer.

Past Builds: (Done & sold) 1/8” scale A.J. Fisher 2 mast schooner Challenge, 1/6” scale scratch built whaler Wanderer w/ plans & fittings from A.J. Fisher, and numerous plastic kits including 1/8” scale Revell U.S.S. Constitution (twice), Cutty Sark, and Mayflower.

                  (Done & in dry dock) Modified 1/8” scale Revell U.S.S. Constitution w/ wooden deck and masting [too close encounter w/conc. floor in move]

Hope to get to builds: MS 3/16” scale Pride of Baltimore II,  MS 1/2” scale pinky schooner Glad Tidings,  a scratch build 3/16” scale  Phantom, and a scratch build 3/16" scale Denis Sullivan.

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35 minutes ago, Dr PS - Paul Schulze said:

Is it possible to use chemical aging by applying Metal Black with a Q-tip or brush after the copper is applied?  I would not want to have the glue run or loosen the plates,

    I have heard mentioned on this forum that a mixture of salt and vinegar can be applied and once aged should be sealed with varnish.  (I think it was mentioned in the Syren build log by Dubz.)  Another one that comes to mind is the application of sun tan oil and being placed in direct sunlight.  This one was also sealed with varnish once you get the effect you want.  I think both methods are done once the plates are applied.

Edited by BETAQDAVE
typo

Dave

“You’ve just got to know your limitations”  Dirty Harry

Current Builds:  Modified MS 1/8” scale Phantom, and modified plastic/wood hybrid of Aurora 1:87 scale whaling bark Wanderer.

Past Builds: (Done & sold) 1/8” scale A.J. Fisher 2 mast schooner Challenge, 1/6” scale scratch built whaler Wanderer w/ plans & fittings from A.J. Fisher, and numerous plastic kits including 1/8” scale Revell U.S.S. Constitution (twice), Cutty Sark, and Mayflower.

                  (Done & in dry dock) Modified 1/8” scale Revell U.S.S. Constitution w/ wooden deck and masting [too close encounter w/conc. floor in move]

Hope to get to builds: MS 3/16” scale Pride of Baltimore II,  MS 1/2” scale pinky schooner Glad Tidings,  a scratch build 3/16” scale  Phantom, and a scratch build 3/16" scale Denis Sullivan.

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On 7/19/2019 at 3:49 PM, BETAQDAVE said:

    There is also an article on building the Mary Taylor by Clare Hess in the same magazine from the March/April through July/August 2013 issues using a similar method.  

        I looked for other magazine articles on whaling ships after mentioning the ones above and came up with a few more.

             -Model Ship Builder magazine Jan/Feb 1981 issue has an extensive article by Jim Roberts titled Masting And Rigging The                   Whaling Brig Kate Cory.

 

             -Model Ship Builder Mar/Apr 1981 also by Jim Roberts covering hull and deck details for the Kate Cory.

 

             -Ships-In-Scale Jan/Feb 1986 by Robert Evans on modeling try works.  

 

             -S-I-S also Jan/Feb 1886 by Jim Roberts on misc. features of whalers.

 

             -S-I-S Mar/Apr 1986 - May/Jun 1989 by Robert Evans on modeling the whaler Charles W, Morgan.

 

             - S-I-S May/Jun - Sep/Oct 1985 by James Adair also on modeling the C.W.M

 

         And don't forget all the build logs on various whalers in MSWs forums. B)

Edited by BETAQDAVE
typo

Dave

“You’ve just got to know your limitations”  Dirty Harry

Current Builds:  Modified MS 1/8” scale Phantom, and modified plastic/wood hybrid of Aurora 1:87 scale whaling bark Wanderer.

Past Builds: (Done & sold) 1/8” scale A.J. Fisher 2 mast schooner Challenge, 1/6” scale scratch built whaler Wanderer w/ plans & fittings from A.J. Fisher, and numerous plastic kits including 1/8” scale Revell U.S.S. Constitution (twice), Cutty Sark, and Mayflower.

                  (Done & in dry dock) Modified 1/8” scale Revell U.S.S. Constitution w/ wooden deck and masting [too close encounter w/conc. floor in move]

Hope to get to builds: MS 3/16” scale Pride of Baltimore II,  MS 1/2” scale pinky schooner Glad Tidings,  a scratch build 3/16” scale  Phantom, and a scratch build 3/16" scale Denis Sullivan.

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Copper tape gets a nice patina on its own after a couple of months.  Mine patina’d even under the sealant I put on it.

Building: 1:64 HMS Revenge (Victory Models plans)

1:64 Cat Esther (17th Century Dutch Merchant Ships)
 

On the building slip: 1:72 French Ironclad Magenta (original shipyard plans)

 

On hold: 1:98 Mantua HMS Victory (kit bash), 1:96 Shipyard HMS Mercury

 

Favorite finished builds:  1:60 Sampang Good Fortune (Amati plans), 1:200 Orel Ironclad Solferino, 1:72 Schooner Hannah (Hahn plans), 1:72 Privateer Prince de Neufchatel (Chapelle plans), Model Shipways Sultana, Heller La Reale, Encore USS Olympia

 

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56 minutes ago, GrandpaPhil said:

Copper tape gets a nice patina on its own after a couple of months.  Mine patina’d even under the sealant I put on it.

Thanks for the information. 😎

Paul

 

Cutty Sark, Scientific Models (no build log)

18th Century Armed Longboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Coffee Wagon and Limber, Model Shipways side project

New Bedford Whaleboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Gatling Gun, Model Shipways side project

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Dave, thanks for the article list. I have not purchased the NRG Model Ship Builder and Ships-in-Scale archives as of yet. Do you know if any of these articles you mentioned contain more information  on building techniques than, say, Chuck’s practicum on the Sultana?

Paul

 

Cutty Sark, Scientific Models (no build log)

18th Century Armed Longboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Coffee Wagon and Limber, Model Shipways side project

New Bedford Whaleboat, Model Shipways

Civil War Gatling Gun, Model Shipways side project

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