Oseberg Ship by KrisWood - 1:25 - Vibeke Bischoff Plans

[Larry Cowden]

On 1/20/2020 at 6:49 PM, KrisWood said:

I'm in the process of cutting out my keel, stem, and stern parts again, and doing it by hand with a coping saw / chisels takes FOREVER and I can't get a straight line for the life od me. I tried using a rotary tool but that thing has a mind of its own and the cutting discs only like to go in a straight line.

 

What tools do you use for cutting out parts? Do you have any links handy for how to cut out parts that are not videos? (I learn best by reading)

I have a Shopsmith scroll saw. Works great for things like this. I recommend adding a power scroll saw to your shop.

[Larry Cowden]

On 1/13/2020 at 10:57 PM, KrisWood said:

Do you have any suggestion for how to keep the parts vertical while gluing them?

Glue them flat on a hard non stick surface.

[Larry Cowden]

On 1/14/2020 at 12:06 AM, KrisWood said:

But what if the keel isn't flat? As per the plans, it curves in all three dimensions.

Get your self some builders shims from HD or Lowe's. These are cedar or pine shims tapered to very thin surface. They should work fine for supporting your keel at both ends.  Wax them to prevent glue sticking to them.

[Larry Cowden]

On 1/27/2020 at 2:12 PM, KrisWood said:

Minor updates and a question.

 

I'm still in the process of remaking the keel, stem, and stern parts. It's a slow going process with the tools I have available. I've decided to make all the scarfs before gluing and before shaping the cross sections of the parts this time, so that if any specific part gets ruined I only have to remake that part instead of all of them.

 

Meanwhile I've decided to get a scroll saw or equivalent. Currently I'm leaning toward the Rockwell Bladerunner X2 because it also includes a fence to function as a mini table saw. I know it's not the best tool for the job, but it's inexpensive and versatile and even if it's terrible it can't be any worse than my skill level with the coping saw.

 

Has anyone used this saw? Is it worth getting? What blades would you use for cutting basswood? Most reviews say to use Bosch jigsaw blades, but I don't know which ones to get. I already have some laying around so I'm hoping those will work, but at least they're not expensive if I need to get more.

I looked at that one on Lowe's site and I have reservations about its use on small parts. Jig saw blades create a lot of vibrations and splintering with plywood. Even the finest tooth blade will still give you fits. And you cannot cut tight curves. Look at the actual scroll saws listed. They can use very fine blades for scroll work, pretty much eliminates splintering with plywood, and won't damage your parts due to the vibrations. The cut surface is also much smoother requiring less filing or sanding.

[Larry Cowden]

On 10/30/2020 at 2:32 PM, KrisWood said:

It's been slow going these last few weeks. I've started a new job and it's taking up all my time and concentration.

 

I've been gradually getting parts cut out, little by little, and assembling them.

 

I accidentally glued the aft stem at the wrong angle, tilting too far aft. While attempting to pry it loose with a sharp knife, I accidentally snapped my keel in half. 🤣

 

Well, that'll teach me not to try that again.

 

So I reprinted my keel templates, cut them all out of wood, and lined them up with the parts I'd already cut out but hadn't glued yet.

 

 

They didn't fit! 😢

 

I carefully double checked all measurements and found that when I'd printed the templates on paper, the scale of each print was very slightly different, within a range of up to 2mm over the length of the ship.

 

Well, that's a problem. That means nothing is going to line up perfectly!

 

My question now is, how can I print paper templates at a consistent scale???

 

I'm already setting Adobe reader to print at 100% scale / actual size for my 1:25 Rhino drawings. I'd assumed that meant the resulting prints would all be at the same scale but obviously that is not so.

 

I'm stumped and would greatly appreciate any advice for printing consistent scales between drawings, especially for the parts that consist of multiple pages taped together when they're longer than one page.

I work in AutoCAD. I designed our cabin and garage, utilities, and everything else in CAD. Make sure your dwg file is the same as your print scale. I used Staples to print my blue prints. And I checked them with scale and they were correct.

[Larry Cowden]

On 5/6/2020 at 5:07 PM, KrisWood said:

Hi @Cathead,

 

I don't have a table saw, so that's out of the question. I'll be working entirely with hand tools here. I do have a Dremel that could probably do the same task, but no way to mount it without making a mount from scratch, and no way to buy such a thing during quarantine.

 

I'd rather not glue the bulkheads to the keel as I'd just have to remove them again, and then I'd probably damage the wood / leave glue behind in the process.

 

I do have some heavy gauge copper wire from my metal-smithing classes back in college. I wonder if a cigarette lighter gets hot enough to anneal it and make my own rivets hmmm...

If it is within your budget, there are a number of good desk top hobby table saws much smaller than full size table saws that will give you the ability to do this.

[Larry Cowden]

On 9/24/2020 at 7:48 PM, KrisWood said:

It's the end of the road for CAD work.

 

I'll be losing access to Rhino soon, so here's the final CAD screenshot. Everything else will be photos of wood from here on out.

 

 

This is the completed jig design. I'm not sure if all of it is necessary, and may not end up building it this way, but it would support both the keel and the cutout. I've also made the cutout opening wider in this version than my last screenshot. The jig height is set up so that the cutout is exactly halfway up the keel and it can be flipped over with zero change in geometry.

 

The bulkheads will only be used in the upside down position while placing the first five strakes. After that I think the hull should be sturdy enough to flip it over and remove the bulkheads and cutout.

 

I've never done this before so please tell me, does this sound like a sane way to build a model?

 

Next step will be printing out all my parts and backing the files up to the cloud for when I'm able to get Rhino again some day.

I don't know if this can help or not. But I have had free access to all upgrades for Auto CAD for the last 16 years. I am a disabled Navy veteran. I can upgrade to all latest versions under the student/ veteran rules for free. I can't use them for commercial licensed use. But I have used many versions of Auto Cad for personal design and construction use. I designed our cabin and garage in Auto Cad in conjunction with our log home company. They were responsible for initial design and construction requirements. They sent me the dwg. files and I made the design changes on my system, then sent them back. It was the absolute great experience of my life in designing our retirement home with everything we wanted in it. I had control of all aspects of design. Electrical layout, plumbing, utilities, garage, insulation, increasing our loft, cabin size, garage size and layout, window specifications, basement wall specs. And internal layout of the cabin and garage. Check into this. 

[Larry Cowden]

On 5/22/2020 at 10:44 AM, KrisWood said:

Last night I attempted cutting the keel as one piece of plywood. I right away encountered many many problems with it.

 

1. The table mounted jigsaw has a guard arm that gets in the way of cutting anything larger than the table. The keel is far longer than the table so this means it's near impossible to cut out this way. The process involved dozens of progressively larger arcing cuts, with the first few being very shallow and having to back the work piece off the blade and cutting from the other side whenever I hit the guard arm. I ended up cutting out 2/3 of it before giving up on it completely because I ran out of time for the day / couldn't cut the midship portion at all because it's impossible to cut within a few degrees of 180º. 
2. Once I got the aft stem cut completely cut out, it was apparent why no one builds this way, not even the kit manufacturers. The 1/4 ply was VERY flimsy. It was far lighter and more flexible than my solid basswood parts, and almost as bad as balsa. When I felt it flex I realized that every kit I've seen uses a tall bulkhead-like keel to fit the frames into. I could draw a new keel in this way but really a tat point I may as well build a kit instead of a scratchbuild.
3. A few days ago, when buying the wire for my rivets, I also picked up some more wood glue. As soon as I got home I noticed that the label clearly says not to use it on parts that can get wet. DUH! It's water based glue! I've known that since I was a kid. This should have occurred to me sooner. Even if my current basswood keel didn't have terrible scarfs, it's still held together by wood glue and would come apart eventually in water. That lead me to researching marine plywood. The regular plywood I'd bought from the hardware store would delaminate if submerged for too long. I'd decided to try making a keel out of it anyway since I'm planning on burning it, but problems 1 and 2 above were too much to make it worthwhile.

 

I hereby speak from personal experience: A plywood keel isn't worth the time, effort, or material it takes to cut out the part!

 

I'm going to have to get some more printer ink so I can reprint my keel templates and make a new basswood version. At least I won't have to chisel it out this time, and I learned a lot along the way.

 

Edit/PS: Can anyone recommend an easy-to-use-for-beginners marine epoxy? I imagine the RC boat building folks must have something.

Go to Mudhole.com. Look up epoxies. The ProKote, ProGlu, and ProPaste Epoxy will meet your needs. I build fishing rods with them and they will certainly meet your needs.

[Larry Cowden]

On 6/16/2020 at 7:02 PM, KrisWood said:

Unrelated to the above, I'm starting to think metal rivets aren't going to be the best means of assembling this thing and I'm looking into turning toothpicks down to the right diameter. Problem is I don't have a micro-lathe. I do have multiple hand drills and rotary tools though. Does anyone have a good diy tutorials (no videos please, I'm too old to absorb information from videos) for turning a rotary tool or hand drill into a micro lathe? While I'm at it maybe I should make a micro drill press / router at the same time. I have a full size drill press but it's massive and I'd like for this rotary tool "workstation" to fit on my desk if possible.

Dremel makes a nice small drill press suited for this work. I have one and it works great!

[Larry Cowden]

On 6/8/2020 at 1:03 PM, KrisWood said:

As I'm lining up the bulkheads it occurs to me that this would be a lot easier to fair if I had some planks to line it up with. I don't want to glue it in place before fairing it if possible. The Saga Oseberg book by Thomas Finderup has a diagram of the planks drawn flat, but it doesn't have a scale. How would you go about figuring out the correct scale?

 

You can see the diagram in a lecture by the author in this video at 37:51

 

https://webtv.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/?poditemid=40145&tagsid=121&soegeord=

 

The image in the book is higher resolution and I've aligned my scan of it with the version in his lecture to correct any distortion from the scanning near the binding of the book. Now I just need to figure out the size at which to cut out the planks....

 I wish they had really done this in English! I'm sure there were some very interesting details to be known about building this boat!

[Larry Cowden]

On 7/4/2020 at 12:03 AM, KrisWood said:

Ok, what would be easier to build, the one above at 1/32" except for the middle layer which is 1/16", or the below four layers at 1/16" each?

 

I'll have to redraw the scarfs to accommodate the 1/16" version but that's not terribly difficult.

 

 

I say go with the 1/16"

[Larry Cowden]

On 7/6/2020 at 2:22 PM, KrisWood said:

Ok, let's try a different way of asking the same question:

 

If you were building up a keel out of layers instead of as a single piece, do you think it would be easier to cut more thinner layers, or less thicker layers?

 

Thinner layers means smaller steps between layers and less shaping work in the filing and sanding department.

 

Thicker layers means less cutting out of pieces and less chance that they'll get glued on at the wrong angle, but more shaping work and a higher likelihood of sanding too much or too little.

 

Also related, would you shape your layers (the sanding and filing to the right thickness) before or after gluing them all together?

 

This feels like I'm starting all over again. I'm back to the very first problem I had, of not knowing how to work the wood in the first place. 😣

I go with sanding and shaping after laminating them together. Less chance of misalignment and breaking a piece.

[Larry Cowden]

On 8/28/2020 at 7:23 PM, KrisWood said:

Minor update...

 

I had painstakingly redrawn my top two strakes, because the planking diagram only has the starboard side and the two sides need to be proportional, and because I'm going to need to be able to eventually draw the frames to the inside of the planks, but the lines drawing for Saga Oseberg is only the PORT side. It took weeks but I finally ended up with beautifully curving, flattenable surfaces from which I could print a new planking diagram for these strakes...

 

Then, just as I was congratulating myself for a job well done, I realized I'd drawn them along the OUTSIDES of the planks, and because of this they no longer lined up with the lower 10 strakes. To make matters worse, I discovered that I'd inadvertently deleted the lines for the INSIDES of my planks at some point. I just about threw my laptop out the window, except that I was already outside, doing my CAD work on the porch. Weeks of work gone.

 

On the bright side I picked up the habit of making iterative saves periodically when I used to work as a videogame artist, so I likely have the true inner lines in one of them. I'll just have to dig through each save until I find the most recent one that still has them. Back to the grindestone...

That's a hard lesson to learn. Always back up your work. I kept multiple versions of my drawings on my computer and backed up on a separate hard drive just in case!

[Larry Cowden]

On 9/4/2020 at 12:55 PM, KrisWood said:

I've completed drawing one test frame! My top two strakes don't quite line up so I'll have to do some troubleshooting on those.

 

 

I will take all of your jig suggestions together and come up with a new jig over the next couple days. I'm getting so close I can smell the future sawdust from here!

I admire your skill with Rhino. I never used that one. Do those files translate well into Auto CAD?

[Larry Cowden]

On 9/5/2020 at 1:39 AM, KrisWood said:

 

@mtaylor, I know I'll be fine once I get used to it. At this point it's starting to feel like I'm just putting off cutting new wooden parts, the more I get into the smaller and smaller details in the CAD.

 

 

 

@AnobiumPunctatum, A couple pages ago in this thread we discussed the pros and cons of doing the frames perpendicular to the centerline. I opted to do them perpendicular both vertically and longitudinally to make designing easier. I'm certain the diagonal frames in the original served some purpose, but this is a model and just needs to float for a little while. I'll try for complete historical accuracy on another model.

 

The frame I've modeled in the images above is 1A in the the Saga Oseberg plans. It's the only one I could find plans for, which I took a screenshot of from one of the video lectures by Vibeke Bischoff on the Viking Ship Museum website.

 

 

It's one frame aft of frame 0, and the mastfish covers both of them. The vertical deck beam support is only there to test out how it looks with one in place. I'll be removing it when I add the mastfish.

 

I haven't drawn the plank clamps yet. I'll be adding those soon. At the moment I'm still trying to find some rhyme or reason as to how tall and how wide they are. It seems to vary, even on this one frame.

 

 

I'm using Rhinoceros.

I put forth this theory. Every long ship from these boats to tankers and warships all flex to some extents vertically with respect to forces of waves acting on the bow and stern. This boat had ribs slanted for and aft. That was a deliberate design to resist deflection of the bow and stern by heavy wave actions! As the keel and hull flexed vertically with response to wave action, the slanted ribs resisted that vertical flexing. There are numerous records of modern surface ships literally breaking in half due to extreme hull stress by the vertical forces of wave actions. In fact, when we fire a modern torpedo, it does not penetrate the target hull. It explodes midship under the hull! The resulting explosion lifts the target literally out of the water and breaks the keel and hull in half. A vertical arrangement of ribs does not resist such flexing and would more easily snap the keel.

[Jaager]

I have just skimmed this log.  I am going with the thought that you are still trying to do this using Basswood and or plywood, since I did not see different information.  You are making this much more difficult and unrewarding by using a species (Basswood) that is no joy to work and lacks the characteristics that you need.  Plywood makes for a stable base for a tool or a baseboard on which to assemble a hull.  It is just ugly as an actual part of a hull, and no fun to work either.

If I am correct about the species of wood,  it is fighting you and makes for a serious handicap from the start.  It does not need to be this difficult.

I see no location for you, so I have no clue as to the species of suitable wood near to you.  Using an appropriate species makes the job easier and the right wood is a joy to shape and assemble.

A frustrating factor is that it is becoming increasingly difficult for those who are not their own sawmill to obtain the proper wood species.

 

[KrisWood]

@Larry Cowden, Thank you for all your comments! The only thing I've ever done in AutoCAD is export drawings to other formats. Yes, Rhino can natively export to AutoCAD dwg format. I think you may be correct about the diagonal frames resisting the vertical action of waves. Viking ships were built to flex with waves, which is why the frames are lashed to the planks rather than nailed. I wish I was better at CAD work, regardless of the program used, because I'm really struggling to draw the parts that are not planar, like the frames.

 

@Jaager, I'm currently in the process of drawing all the parts I'd missed with my previous computer's Rhino trial. Once I'm done with that I'll be getting back into the wood. I am currently using basswood for my ship model and plywood for the building jig. There will be no plywood on the model itself, though I have some poplar I was thinking of using for the frame timbers and meginhufr (equivalent of a main wale on later ships). What is it about basswood that makes it unsuitable? What species of wood would you recommend instead of Basswood?

 

Also, I had a boxwood bush die in my yard last summer during the drought, and I'm thinking about pulling it out and cutting it into frame timbers with my dremel saw attachment. I could have swore I'd read somewhere that boxwood makes for good ship modeling wood.

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, KrisWood said:

What is it about basswood that makes it unsuitable? What species of wood would you recommend instead of Basswood?

If you are US, explore the Hard Maple and Black Cherry that Wood Craft has available.  Or, if you want a wood that is easy to hand fret saw, Yellow Poplar.  The color... well it is used in furniture, but hidden or painted - it tends to be variegated  in color.  you can  pick and choose the sections if you can stand the waste.  It is very low cost as far as hardwood goes.

To answer your first question:  too soft, crushes too easily, poor at holding an edge, too fuzzy.  If you switch to a better species, you will experience the difference, very likely.

 

Boxwood is our unicorn.  It is the ultimate wood that was used _ with Pear - in the original 17th century Navy Board models.  For our purposes, it is essentially extinct.  It is almost imperative that you harvest your trunk.  I suspect that the varieties of Boxwood used  for timber were taller, with long straight trunks.  

For your boat, it may be worth considering as frame timber.  But it would be sort of overkill.  For a ship model, the frames involve a significant portion going to waste.  A small supply of Boxwood is better used to make the parts that stick out, are curved, are prone to being broken off.  I would save it for those parts and for blocks and deadeyes.  It is too good and not easily substituted for, it use it on high volume parts that other wood will serve to accomplish.  Another factor: I have a piece of Boxwood that was originally a foundation/ border plant.  The grain is really tight and too close together for a frame timber.  In scale for a block.

 

[Larry Cowden]

On 1/11/2021 at 7:07 PM, KrisWood said:

@Larry Cowden, Thank you for all your comments! The only thing I've ever done in AutoCAD is export drawings to other formats. Yes, Rhino can natively export to AutoCAD dwg format. I think you may be correct about the diagonal frames resisting the vertical action of waves. Viking ships were built to flex with waves, which is why the frames are lashed to the planks rather than nailed. I wish I was better at CAD work, regardless of the program used, because I'm really struggling to draw the parts that are not planar, like the frames.

 

@Jaager, I'm currently in the process of drawing all the parts I'd missed with my previous computer's Rhino trial. Once I'm done with that I'll be getting back into the wood. I am currently using basswood for my ship model and plywood for the building jig. There will be no plywood on the model itself, though I have some poplar I was thinking of using for the frame timbers and meginhufr (equivalent of a main wale on later ships). What is it about basswood that makes it unsuitable? What species of wood would you recommend instead of Basswood?

 

Also, I had a boxwood bush die in my yard last summer during the drought, and I'm thinking about pulling it out and cutting it into frame timbers with my dremel saw attachment. I could have swore I'd read somewhere that boxwood makes for good ship modeling wood.

I feel your pain on those parts! When I went back to college after the Navy I took Architectural, Mechanical, Civil, and straight Auto Cad. Any 3D work in those areas I did was a struggle at times. I even did a course in Maya! So please, don't apologize to me! Would you email me your files as you go? Native AutoCAD is dwg. I would love to look at them and study what you have done. I still love CAD drafting and find it a really rewarding experience when I design things for actual use.   I remember starting AutoCAD courses in DOS! Then going through the various Micro Soft versions. One marine drafting company had me working in Microsoft 3.1 platform with AutoCAD still in DOS! I still have my first PC tower the VA bought me with a split hard drive. One is DOS, and the other side is Windows 98. I haven't given it up because there are valuable DOS civil engineering programs on it that did not migrate to Microsoft. 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Larry Cowden

[Jaager]

3 hours ago, Larry Cowden said:

My email is

Larry,

You might consider deleting your email address from open view and use a PM instead.  Web crawlers ... Nigerian princes ... phishing attacks ... bad actors

[KrisWood]

@Larry Cowden, I second @Jaager's suggestion that you scrub your email from your post. I sent you an email, so you no longer need it there anyway. It's too easy for identity thieves and other ne'er do well's to make use of when posted on a public forum.

[Larry Cowden]

3 hours ago, KrisWood said:

@Larry Cowden, I second @Jaager's suggestion that you scrub your email from your post. I sent you an email, so you no longer need it there anyway. It's too easy for identity thieves and other ne'er do well's to make use of when posted on a public forum.

I reviewed that post and the forum does not provide a means to edit or eliminate the post. I have been attacked before on other media sites so it would be nothing new. I shifted my email to my profile under one of those listed media sites. 

[Larry Cowden]

On 1/12/2021 at 4:20 AM, Jaager said:

Larry,

You might consider deleting your email address from open view and use a PM instead.  Web crawlers ... Nigerian princes ... phishing attacks ... bad actors

I've had those on other  media such as AOL. Nigeria is well known for criminal activity on the web. Phishing doesn't work with me. Those I can respond to, I let know they should cease and desist or else! 

[Jaager]

29 minutes ago, Larry Cowden said:

the forum does not provide a means to edit or eliminate the post

Black bar at top of each post,  three dots far right just before the post number - right click on them.

[Larry Cowden]

9 hours ago, Jaager said:

Black bar at top of each post,  three dots far right just before the post number - right click on them.

Thanks and done..

[Larry Cowden]

On 1/11/2021 at 7:07 PM, KrisWood said:

@Larry Cowden, Thank you for all your comments! The only thing I've ever done in AutoCAD is export drawings to other formats. Yes, Rhino can natively export to AutoCAD dwg format. I think you may be correct about the diagonal frames resisting the vertical action of waves. Viking ships were built to flex with waves, which is why the frames are lashed to the planks rather than nailed. I wish I was better at CAD work, regardless of the program used, because I'm really struggling to draw the parts that are not planar, like the frames.

 

@Jaager, I'm currently in the process of drawing all the parts I'd missed with my previous computer's Rhino trial. Once I'm done with that I'll be getting back into the wood. I am currently using basswood for my ship model and plywood for the building jig. There will be no plywood on the model itself, though I have some poplar I was thinking of using for the frame timbers and meginhufr (equivalent of a main wale on later ships). What is it about basswood that makes it unsuitable? What species of wood would you recommend instead of Basswood?

 

Also, I had a boxwood bush die in my yard last summer during the drought, and I'm thinking about pulling it out and cutting it into frame timbers with my dremel saw attachment. I could have swore I'd read somewhere that boxwood makes for good ship modeling wood.

Are you working AutoCAD in 2D?  AutoCAD Mechanical lets you work in 3D. Draw your part in planar and use the extrude command to create the third dimension for a solid part. 

[KrisWood]

On 1/18/2021 at 10:45 AM, Larry Cowden said:

Are you working AutoCAD in 2D?  AutoCAD Mechanical lets you work in 3D. Draw your part in planar and use the extrude command to create the third dimension for a solid part. 

 

I've been using the Rhinoceros 3D trial version. It expires tomorrow on this computer, but I managed to print out all my plans at the correct scale, so I'm back in business!

 

I don't have much poplar but I'm going to try building most of the keel with that. We'll see how it goes!

[bigpetr]

Hi Kris,

great to here you are on it

How did you solve the different scale plans problem?

[KrisWood]

Hi @bigpetr,

 

While trying to figure out how to print the plans on paper in the first place, a year ago or more now I think, I had changed a number of print settings in both Rhino and Acrobat Reader. I changed them all back to the defaults except for two things:

 

Print scale in Rhino (1:25 instead of the default 1:1)

Print in Greyscale in Acrobat Reader

 

Once I had everything except those two set back to the defaults, it printed correctly the first try.

 

Because I do not own a large format printer I had to print it tiled as a poster in Acrobat Reader. I'll try taping together my tiled pages and building from that. If that still doesn't work (mostly due to inevitable errors in the angle at which I tape them together) I'll take my plans to the local printshop and have them print it at blueprint scale (they go up to ARCH-E  36"x48") and buy a lot of carbon paper to transfer it to the wood.

 

I hope to have updates for you all in the near future!

[KrisWood]

Printed plans (tiled but not taped together yet) this time with a printed scale to verify it's all the right size! I've got some work cut out for me here...