Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[ClipperFan]

Rob, here's Mike's layout of Glory's Rear House. My apologies for it not being completely flat. I can say from the illustration in the book that the house narrows as it goes towards the Stern.

According to his measurements, dimensions are to interior walls, not exterior. That would probably add an additional foot to width as well as length, which may make it easier to calculate all turned rail stanchion distances. What still surprises me is that all 4 front facing windows are 1 & 1/2 feet wide, both doors (as illustrated by Mike) are a mere 2 feet wide. All side windows appear to be 1 foot square.  

 

[ClipperFan]

Rob, here's a better image of Michael Mjelde's Rear House layout (Clipper Ship Captain page 175). 

Using a ruler 1/8" = 1' (1:96th scale), I was able to determine that his dimensions use interior walls as his guidelines. Interior front is 24', exterior 25', interior rear is 23', exterior rear 24'. Measurements aren't consistent, as exterior side is just barely 45'.(which could just be difficulty of measuring in the book) skylights are 6' × 4'. All 12 side & both rear windows appear to be 1' square, 4 fore windows are 1 & 1/2' wide × 2' high (not including arches) both front doors (as illustrated) are just 2' wide × 6' high inclusive of arches.

From a feeling of balance, I too prefer 4 doors, which is feasible if both outer beds are moved to interior walls and interior door is eliminated. That of course would throw off the entire balance of the Dining Salon. Unfortunately there's insufficient photo evidence to support either arrangement. Based on the limited information available, I still suspect there were just 2 forward facing doors.

Edited September 1, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional information

[rwiederrich]

It would seam if we were to follow the natural layout of the main cabin and dining hall the doors would follow this natural arrangement.    Cept for the incorrect outward swing of the exterior doors which slid sideways.  
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Finished up the retro fit backstay channels and chain plates.  
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Few more pics before I begin the aft cabin. 
 

Rob

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, here's a better image of Michael Mjelde's Rear House layout (Clipper Ship Captain page 175). 

Using a ruler 1/8" = 1' (1:96th scale), I was able to determine that his dimensions use interior walls as his guidelines. Interior front is 24', exterior 25', interior rear is 23', exterior rear 24'. Measurements aren't consistent, as exterior side is just barely 45'.(which could just be difficulty of measuring in the book) skylights are 6' × 4'. All 12 side & both rear windows appear to be 1' square, 4 fore windows are 1 & 1/2' wide × 2' high (not including arches) both front doors (as illustrated) are just 2' wide × 6' high inclusive of arches.

From a feeling of balance, I too prefer 4 doors, which is feasible if both outer beds are moved to interior walls and interior door is eliminated. That of course would throw off the entire balance of the Dining Salon. Unfortunately there's insufficient photo evidence to support either arrangement. Based on the limited information available, I still suspect there were just 2 forward facing doors.

Mikes drawing shows a curved house but the image on page 56 shows the rail for the house to be straight,  if you look at it closely, plus the same image shows ornamentation  where I suspected the two other doors.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

32 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Mikes drawing shows a curved house but the image on page 56 shows the rail for the house to be straight,  if you look at it closely, plus the same image shows ornamentation  where I suspected the two other doors.  
 

Rob

Rob, part of what you call curved is most likely an effect of the curvature of the book itself. There is a slight inward line of the Rear House itself, just one foot. The house could have been straight but a very slight trapezoidal shape instead of a true rectangle. In accommodating limited rear poop deck working area along the sides, that would make sense, at least to me. I'm almost done on my larger version of the Rear House, incorporating the additional area as set up in Mike's layout. I should have it done by tomorrow.

[rwiederrich]

16 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, part of what you call curved is most likely an effect of the curvature of the book itself. There is a slight inward line of the Rear House itself, just one foot. The house could have been straight but a very slight trapezoidal shape instead of a true rectangle. In accommodating limited rear poop deck working area along the sides, that would make sense, at least to me. I'm almost done on my larger version of the Rear House, incorporating the additional area as set up in Mike's layout. I should have it done by tomorrow.

Thanks Rich.   Looking forward to it.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Rob & Vladimir, here's a larger sketch of Glory's Rear House, it's still very much a work in progress but I feel I'm getting much closer to matching all the elements of Mike's layout and the only 2 photos we have of this structure. Once again, I literally have a "Tale of Two Houses." Only this time my earlier effort on right side, which has the larger windows is inaccurate based on Mike's interior layout. The left side now is most accurate in that it's more in sync with Mike's sketch. The main difference is both left windows are 1 & 1/2' wide. I tried a 2' door but it just looked too narrow in comparison to the sole photo available which reveals an open door. The very bottom of the house is painted a darker color. I surmise it would be the same shade of blue waterways are painted. That would also lead me to believe the bases of the other structures would be uniformly painted the same, including fore house, all hatches, entrances and Rear Wheelhouse. 

I've flipped examples of both sides, mainly because the canting of the outer two stanchions on the right side are more accurate, as is the spacing of the stanchions on the right side. While still imperfect, this should give you guys enough to work with while I continue my efforts to get a single consistent result.

[rwiederrich]

Great drawings Rich,  but there are actually only 9 stanchions across the front not 10.  
 

The images you posted show this clearly. 
 

However, you windows and doors and the recessed panel work is super and I will try to incorporate these drawings in my impression and build.  
 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

Rob, Rich, lovely updates indeed. thanks.  That building view gives me enough headache to think how to incorporate those details into reality...:) 

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

Rich, as much I love your second draw on details - i see you updated roof layers to brilliant outcome -   I immediately felt something  disturbingly different is on it and I dont think updated windows design is better , on contrary. i would say it follows doors curvature...and angles sharply as on first sketch...although there is shade on upper aprt on photograph .it can be spotted in window glass reflection of the boat. very upper corner can be seen....is there any clue that led you to redisigning windows top curvature to  round profile? It would be natural to keep same shape also on doors insertion etc...   

Edited September 2, 2021 by Vladimir_Wairoa
add

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

I think also this would be very unnatural for carpenters to finish window frame in very top of panel thus not being able to insert windows wooden frame into panel !  as upper panel is of totally different construction - roof panel . i would claim is should be littel lower endidng window , I hope you take it as part of fruitful collaboration. its fantastic anyway.Vlad

 

 

[ClipperFan]

7 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Great drawings Rich,  but there are actually only 9 stanchions across the front not 10.  
 

The images you posted show this clearly. 
 

However, you windows and doors and the recessed panel work is super and I will try to incorporate these drawings in my impression and build.  
 

Rob

Rob, until I just made a much closer inspection of the deck level image, I could have sworn there were a dozen stanchions. After taking a very close inspection of that picture (again thank you Mike) I now count 11. This time you can see the left side of the house. Interestingly enough, the ladders to the upper poop deck are also visible on the left, between the ship's lifeboat and house, as well as the outer poop deck rails which continue to cant inwards for as far as is visible. My new conclusion now is that there are definitely only 11 stanchions. 9 central and 2 outriggers, for lack of a better term. 

[ClipperFan]

5 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

I think also this would be very unnatural for carpenters to finish window frame in very top of panel thus not being able to insert windows wooden frame into panel !  as upper panel is of totally different construction - roof panel . i would claim is should be littel lower endidng window , I hope you take it as part of fruitful collaboration. its fantastic anyway.Vlad

 

 

Vladimir, I agree with both of your points. The very upper edge of the house is in shadows, so it's hard to make out specific details. From a design viewpoint, it would make sense that major elements such as windows and doors would match. From a construction viewpoint, even just for structural integrity, there should be at least a small area, maybe 6" that is uninterrupted by any cut outs. 

Since I have to redesign the upper stanchions, I will also redo the front as well to incorporate these revisions too.

[rwiederrich]

I'm still curious about the doors Rich.  If they swing, as Mike portrays...they are laying too flat against the house wall to be fully natural.  But the presence of a door knob on the left of the door is very peculiar.  that indicates the door is swung open fully...but the door appears to be wider then the opening for it.  However, that opening is blocked by the machine structure in the foreground.   Looking at the door frame to the right....in the same picture shows the door frame in relations to the window next to it.  Suggesting the open doors entry is wide enough but is simply blocked from view as stated earlier.

 

Back to the door......other images show sliding doors on the fore cabin and on the boys cabin....it would seam continuity would be in order and that the aft cabin doors would be sliders as well.  The base edge of the door gives an indication that the door is a push, then slide to the right(from inside) style door.  but that nasty door knob throws a wrench in the idea of a sliding door.

 

Quite confusing for sure.  Evidence leads us in several directions, without giving us truly any concrete answers.

 

So if the doors swing out....and that is indeed the door knob...the doors swing out to the right and we are looking at the paneling of the inside of the door.

Which is mimicking the paneling of the outside of the door.🤪.

 

Looks like more artistic license is in store.

 

Rob 

[ClipperFan]

54 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

I'm still curious about the doors Rich.  If they swing, as Mike portrays...they are laying too flat against the house wall to be fully natural.  But the presence of a door knob on the left of the door is very peculiar.  that indicates the door is swung open fully...but the door appears to be wider then the opening for it.  However, that opening is blocked by the machine structure in the foreground.   Looking at the door frame to the right....in the same picture shows the door frame in relations to the window next to it.  Suggesting the open doors entry is wide enough but is simply blocked from view as stated earlier.

 

Back to the door......other images show sliding doors on the fore cabin and on the boys cabin....it would seam continuity would be in order and that the aft cabin doors would be sliders as well.  The base edge of the door gives an indication that the door is a push, then slide to the right(from inside) style door.  but that nasty door knob throws a wrench in the idea of a sliding door.

 

Quite confusing for sure.  Evidence leads us in several directions, without giving us truly any concrete answers.

 

So if the doors swing out....and that is indeed the door knob...the doors swing out to the right and we are looking at the paneling of the inside of the door.

Which is mimicking the paneling of the outside of the door.🤪.

 

Looks like more artistic license is in store.

 

Rob 

Rob, since there are no visible door hinges on the right side, where you'd expect them to be, my impression is that these are indeed sliders. I once lived in a Century old home with fantastically large over 7' tall ornately carved heavy oak doors. They were hanging sliders with ornate round glass door knobs. 

Another factor which makes the original ornateness of the wooden carving of Glory's structure is what appears to be many layers of paint over the decades. 

[ClipperFan]

Rob & Vladimir, I think I've finally calculated correct spacing for front 11 stanchions. Starting with 26', outer 4 are 1 & 1/2' apart for a total of 3', leaving 23', inner 3 are 2 & 1/2' apart for a total of 5'. 23' - 5' is 18' ÷ 6 = 3' each. When I get home from wife's dental appointment, I will recheck my math and sketch it out, it should work. 

Also, I looked into the dark area above the door and there's definitely a small area above it, probably 6" of uninterrupted space. Also the windows appear to flatten out to remain aligned with top of the doors. I think we're getting closer to 'nailing this down.'

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

Amazing guys. The thing is, how to translate those beauties into scale. Even in 1:72 scale its such small that its impossible to mimic it. 

Two things to add. Foundation of the xarriagehouse od definitely bigger than on svetoch. Its visible by comparing roof thickness and foundation thickness Up to the Doors from photographs starting from deck level ...

And second, i must say how i like hand drawing of Rich - far more than any computer Vector programes.there IS something really charming and alive in drafting by hand , that zeroes and ones never match. I Can imagine IT urges one to Rush to the carpenter to make those things out of Wood. ...

 

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob & Vladimir, I think I've finally calculated correct spacing for front 11 stanchions. Starting with 26', outer 4 are 1 & 1/2' apart for a total of 3', leaving 23', inner 3 are 2 & 1/2' apart for a total of 5'. 23' - 5' is 18' ÷ 6 = 3' each. When I get home from wife's dental appointment, I will recheck my math and sketch it out, it should work. 

Also, I looked into the dark area above the door and there's definitely a small area above it, probably 6" of uninterrupted space. Also the windows appear to flatten out to remain aligned with top of the doors. I think we're getting closer to 'nailing this down.'

Yes....I'm not so sure the windows had a complete round top...it's all guess work from here....but curved can be an issue for craftsmen...since all other windows are square....I think adding them or not will not break the bank IMV.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

7 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Amazing guys. The thing is, how to translate those beauties into scale. Even in 1:72 scale its such small that its impossible to mimic it. 

Two things to add. Foundation of the xarriagehouse od definitely bigger than on svetoch. Its visible by comparing roof thickness and foundation thickness Up to the Doors from photographs starting from deck level ...

And second, i must say how i like hand drawing of Rich - far more than any computer Vector programes.there IS something really charming and alive in drafting by hand , that zeroes and ones never match. I Can imagine IT urges one to Rush to the carpenter to make those things out of Wood. ...

 

Vladimir, first thanks for your appreciation of my drafting efforts. I deeply appreciate it. I'm in the process of redoing my large sketch (yet again). I've redone the 11 stanchions and it now much more closely matches images in the pics. Thank you Rob for making me review the post count one last time. My revisions will also include a deeper lower molding but comparisons I've seen seem to show that the ornamental soffett below rooftop is slightly deeper than the blue molding at the base of the house. Doors and windows now align equally. 

[TheAuthorsDaughter]

WOW!! Beautiful work!

[rwiederrich]

9 hours ago, TheAuthorsDaughter said:

WOW!! Beautiful work!

Thanks so much Arina....it is a real labor of love.  So many of us are really putting in the time to make sure she is as accurate as possible.

It is funny to think how this entire process evolved and how the right people came together with a similar passion.  All of us standing in the wake of what Mike began so many years ago.

 

Tell him we are getting along.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

13 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir, first thanks for your appreciation of my drafting efforts. I deeply appreciate it. I'm in the process of redoing my large sketch (yet again). I've redone the 11 stanchions and it now much more closely matches images in the pics. Thank you Rob for making me review the post count one last time. My revisions will also include a deeper lower molding but comparisons I've seen seem to show that the ornamental soffett below rooftop is slightly deeper than the blue molding at the base of the house. Doors and windows now align equally. 

I'm still certain there is ornamental bracketing on either side of the overhang....it only makes sense and would be in the context of the overall architecture and design of the building.  IMV.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Nice to see we are on the same track.....in different scales.  Wonderful.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

I'm still certain there is ornamental bracketing on either side of the overhang....it only makes sense and would be in the context of the overall architecture and design of the building.  IMV.

 

Rob

Rob, agreed. My bet would be that these ornamental outer brackets would mirror those that are just barely visible on the front sides of the original rear Wheelhouse. When I'm done with the Rear House, I'll work on it. 

[rwiederrich]

6 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, agreed. My bet would be that these ornamental outer brackets would mirror those that are just barely visible on the front sides of the original rear Wheelhouse. When I'm done with the Rear House, I'll work on it. 

Right...you're talking about the brackets that supported the original wheelhouse roof overhang?

 

Good observation.....I need to find that in an image if it is possible.

 

Rob

Edited September 3, 2021 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Nice to see we are on the same track.....in different scales.  Wonderful.

 

Rob

Rob & Vladimir,

That's amazing, If I didn't know better, I would think I'm looking at the same model! It's indeed a testimony to our groups combined research & to both of your incredible modeling skills.

[ClipperFan]

Just now, rwiederrich said:

Right...you're talking about the brackets that supported the original wheelhouse roof overhang?

 

Good observation.....I need to find that in an image if is is possible.

 

Rob

Rob, if you can, enlarge the 1869 East Boston fitting out scene. That's about the best I've seen. You can see brackets for both the Wheelhouse and Rear Carriage House.

[rwiederrich]

25 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, if you can, enlarge the 1869 East Boston fitting out scene. That's about the best I've seen. You can see brackets for both the Wheelhouse and Rear Carriage House.

I think I can see them...but my images are not that good.

 

Rob