Glory of the Seas medium clipper 1869 - FINISHED - by rwiederrich - 1/96

[rwiederrich]

10 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, it truly is uncanny how two separately, scratch built models so closely match. It really is a tribute to months of painstaking work of all involved in our most in depth research as to the true nature of this incredibly powerful yet lovely vessel.

I spent some time thinking about our builds and it is as if they were made from the same kit...following the same plan......OH....but wait.....they are. 😎.

 

There will be slight changes..there always are...even in kit built models.....something to do with the builders perceptions and personal likes....or skills.

 

What a great adventure....we are paving.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

44 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, your Rear Carriage House is shaping up very nicely. From a nautical design philosophy, I like how the low profile emphasizes stability of the vessel herself.   

Thanks Rich,  there is so much more to still do......by way of adding all the panels(Parameter and face)  , windows and doors.  Once this portion is finished I will add the helm to it.  Still need to chamfer the house to the deck as well

 

The real trick will come when aligning the mizzen mast hole to the one in the poop deck to attain the proper rake🥺

 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

15 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

 

Rob, believe me, I personally have used large ornate heavy wooden sliding doors with round glass door knobs. I wouldn't get hung up on that issue. Meanwhile here's the side of the Rear Carriage House, using 3/16" = 1' scale.

Great stuff Rich. i will have hands full during rainy autumn days...:) what a beautiful knee ornament...

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

nice work on crriagehouse Rob, it is positioned slightly outward moved from poop deck forward right? 

i have a question folks. doyou  how is first hatch positioned? Michaels book says 10 x12 ft and below deck 12x14 - from drawing it looks to me that longer side should be faced athwardship and shorter in bow stern axis positioned, is thar  correct? thank you V. 

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

I spent some time thinking about our builds and it is as if they were made from the same kit...following the same plan......OH....but wait.....they are. 😎.

 

There will be slight changes..there always are...even in kit built models.....something to do with the builders perceptions and personal likes....or skills.

 

What a great adventure....we are paving.

 

Rob

Rob, Mike said he's going to mention the 1911 overall view of Glory in Seattle to Ron Haug. I told him how his other photos have been instrumental in helping us develop the accurate look of her Rear Carriage House, including her narrow windows, narrow sliding doors and interesting design layout of her 11 upper turned rails. Even how I stumbled on her neat wrought iron bars at the end of her poop rails. 

I also stated that as far as I'm aware, your model under construction and Vladimir's are the two most accurate versions of Glory being produced right now. For an eventual Journal article, since your's is based on a post 1872 version while Vlad's will be her original configuration, it will add even more interest.  

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

nice work on crriagehouse Rob, it is positioned slightly outward moved from poop deck forward right? 

i have a question folks. doyou  how is first hatch positioned? Michaels book says 10 x12 ft and below deck 12x14 - from drawing it looks to me that longer side should be faced athwardship and shorter in bow stern axis positioned, is thar  correct? thank you V. 

Vladimir, from what I understand, and from the layout of Appendix B in Mike's 2nd book "Clipper Ship Captain" how you described hatch layouts is correct. 12' dimension is across deck and 10' shorter length is oriented Bow to Stern.

As for the Rear Carriage House, I could be mistaken but from the few images available, it appears that the front is actually flush with the beginning of the poop deck. Rob can correct me if my information is inaccurate. If he does, I'd welcome any visual evidence to support it. The 3' overhang goes beyond the poop.

Edited September 8, 2021 by ClipperFan
Grammar correction

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir, from what I understand, and from the layout of Appendix B in Mike's 2nd book "Clipper Ship Captain" how you described hatch layouts is correct. 12' dimension is across deck and 10' shorter length is oriented Bow to Stern.

As for the Rear Carriage House, I could be mistaken but from the few images available, it appears that the front is actually flush with the beginning of the poop deck. Rob can correct me if my information is inaccurate. If he does, I'd welcome any visual evidence to support it. The 3' overhang goes beyond the poop.

In all evidenced images it appears flush, or at least the moldings and trim work is the only items NOT flush.  Like on any normal home.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, Mike said he's going to mention the 1911 overall view of Glory in Seattle to Ron Haug. I told him how his other photos have been instrumental in helping us develop the accurate look of her Rear Carriage House, including her narrow windows, narrow sliding doors and interesting design layout of her 11 upper turned rails. Even how I stumbled on her neat wrought iron bars at the end of her poop rails. 

I also stated that as far as I'm aware, your model under construction and Vladimir's are the two most accurate versions of Glory being produced right now. For an eventual Journal article, since your's is based on a post 1872 version while Vlad's will be her original configuration, it will add even more interest.  

As she started model and as she entered her last active years model...before she was destroyed by salmon loving pirates......

 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir, from what I understand, and from the layout of Appendix B in Mike's 2nd book "Clipper Ship Captain" how you described hatch layouts is correct. 12' dimension is across deck and 10' shorter length is oriented Bow to Stern.

As for the Rear Carriage House, I could be mistaken but from the few images available, it appears that the front is actually flush with the beginning of the poop deck. Rob can correct me if my information is inaccurate. If he does, I'd welcome any visual evidence to support it. The 3' overhang goes beyond the poop.

Thanks Rich, i had your view as well till one more observation to stir the topic.... that we might not be certain yet . Its actually oppsite on Flying fish. ! for first hatch. longer is bow to stern. this might be cargo loading thing but i measured Michaels drawing in across hull picture, agowing across section and it looks like upper is 12 and lower 14. not 10 - 14. it would be wider i think. 

[rwiederrich]

Spent a little time working the helm

[BANYAN]

That's an interesting after coach/upperdeck structure set-up Rob.  Coming together quite nicely.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[rwiederrich]

35 minutes ago, BANYAN said:

That's an interesting after coach/upperdeck structure set-up Rob.  Coming together quite nicely.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Yeah.  Glory got her helm house extended and it expanded the gap that was there prior and extended up and on top of the aft house to include the older access entry that existed there.  Plus a couple of windows were added forward to aid the helmsman.   
 

It will become clearer as I add more details.  
 

Thanks for looking in. 
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Guys, remember when we were trying to decide if Glory's Rear Carriage House stayed the same width fore to aft or if it narrowed to fit the contours of the poop deck? Well here's the answer. Incontrovertible proof. It definitely narrows. Compare the square roofline of the Rear Wheelhouse to the widening one of the Carriage House, it's clear that the Rear House roofline is smaller towards to rear and larger towards the front. I also see a very slight, almost imperceptible curve as well. In case anybody can't enlarge the original photo, I've edited the scene in order to make this easier to see. Look at the Port side Carriage House railing to see the subtle graceful curve of the railing too.

Edited September 9, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional information

[ClipperFan]

Incidentally, I literally stumbled upon the Carriage House configuration while concentrating on Glory's Stern display. Here's my progress on that issue. Again, emphasis on work in progress. The lettering and fancy doo-dad between them is as accurate as I can get. Carved scrollwork is pure conjecture based on her carved Cutwater arch.

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Incidentally, I literally stumbled upon the Carriage House configuration while concentrating on Glory's Stern display. Here's my progress on that issue. Again, emphasis on work in progress. The lettering and fancy doo-dad between them is as accurate as I can get. Carved scrollwork is pure conjecture based on her carved Cutwater arch.

sweet ! 

[ClipperFan]

39 minutes ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

sweet ! 

Vladimir, thanks for the vociferous comments.... 😉

Incidentally, scale being used for this piece is 1" = 2'. I measured out 4' width (2") in entirety. Than I did my best to approximate 7" sheer rail molding, topped by 6" (1/2") shelf molding below and 6" shelf molding above, topped by another 6" upper main rail molding. "GLORY & "SEAS" lettering are 1' tall, it appears that the "OF THE" is 1/2' while "BOSTON" is most likely 8" on the vessel herself. Distance across is a graceful elliptical arch covering 16' (4" ea side in the drawing). Interestingly too, the style of the transom lettering is entirely different than that on her carved signboard. I suspect that's most likely because they were carved as individual elements, then attached permanently to her hull.

Edited September 9, 2021 by ClipperFan
Grammar correction

[rwiederrich]

Worked for a little time on the carriage house and helm.   
 

stained the roofs an will continue to add paneling and moldings and the doors and windows. 
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Rob, you continue to do impressive work. It will be fun to see Glory's very busy deck be realized as you continue with her neat little gangway to the Boy's House and all the other various modifications post 1872.

[ClipperFan]

Rob, it really pains me to say this, as it looks like I'm being over critical but since I know your goal is to be as authentic to Glory as possible, so here goes. Upon a second look at your Helm House, it looks like it could be too wide, throwing off the scale of your poop deck. Looking at the Alaskan stern view, I count four poop deck stanchions framing the Stern of the Helm House. Figuring these are 3' apart gives a maximum dimension of 12' (1 & 1/2"). That leaves enough room for a pair of ladders on each side with 4 Carriage House Stanchions for the turn of the rail, probably set 1 & 1/2 apart, mirroring the front sets. As your model is configured now, there just doesn't appear to be enough room to replicate these features. Feel free to correct me if you feel I'm mistaken.

Edited September 10, 2021 by ClipperFan
Grammar correction

[rwiederrich]

17 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, you continue to do impressive work. It will be fun to see Glory's very busy deck be realized as you continue with her neat little gangway to the Boy's House and all the other various modifications post 1872.

Thank.  Right, She has so much to model.  I plan on doing the houses right.  With lots of paneling.  
 

I got the original drawing from Mike of the front of the carriage house.   Along With yours I will do my best to be faithful to her builder 

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Rob, is this front fascia sketch by Mike the same one publicized in his second book or a more detailed one?

If it's a more detailed one, please share it. I'd love to see how our two interpretations compare.

I utilized his Carriage House layout precisely to model door and window placement for front and sides, measuring and replicating those dimensions exactly. His front sketch in Appendix B is just too small to see much details. So I relied heavily on the two pictures of the front fascia instead. 

By the way, I left you a little "bad news" about the width of your Helm. House. I hope it's helpful.

[rwiederrich]

17 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, it really pains me to say this, as it looks like I'm being over critical but since I know your goal is to be as authentic to Glory as possible, so here goes. Upon a second look at your Helm House, it looks like it could be too wide, throwing off the scale of your poop deck. Looking at the Alaskan stern view, I count four poop deck stanchions framing the Stern of the Helm House. Figuring these are 3' apart gives a maximum dimension of 12' (1 & 1/2"). That leaves enough room for a pair of ladders on each side with 4 Carriage House Stanchions for the turn of the rail, probably set 1 & 1/2 apart, mirroring the front sets. As your model is configured now, there just doesn't appear to be enough room to replicate these features. Feel free to correct me if you feel I'm mistaken.

I count 6 stanchions behind the helm house in the photo.  I have 6 stanchions.  The helm house is 8 scale ft tall, 1/8” per ft.  
 

sometimes scaling can be difficult, plus Its looking different , but it will all come together.    
 

Thanks for paying attention. 
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

17 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

I count 6 stanchions behind the helm house in the photo.  I have 6 stanchions.  The helm house is 8 scale ft tall, 1/8” per ft.  
 

sometimes scaling can be difficult, plus Its looking different , but it will all come together.    
 

Thanks for paying attention. 
 

Rob

Rob, I misspoke. I meant to say that I  count 4 spaces, 2 on each side of the rear of the Helm House. There's a life saving ring mounted on the central stanchion. To create 4 spaces requires 5 stanchions, not 4. Still, that would result in a 12' wide House (2' wider than I first thought). Another way to look at it is do you have enough room to mount ladders and also position 2 Carriage House stanchions on each side? If you look carefully at the Port side you can clearly see the elements I'm describing. Another interesting feature that shows up is a small detail of molding on the rear of the Carriage House. Details which I mistakenly omitted on my side drawing.

From your photos it just doesn't look like there's enough room to fit ladders and 2 Carriage House stanchions on each side. If you agree the Helm House is 12' it would be 1 & 1/2" wide. Again, it's your model, do as you see fit, I'm just giving you another set of eyes. 

[rwiederrich]

No Rich, I appreciate it.  sometimes, due to unforeseen issues(scaling, and construction mishaps) one has to make slight compromises in questionable items to fulfil requirements of a larger issue.  My measurements for helm house height, length and even width(as you can see there are 6 fantail stanchions as is in the photograph) measuring the distance of the house and to each other.

 

All these correct measurements and elements *SHOULD* make everything come out just right.  but sometimes that just isn't the case when scaling.

One item I think that is throwing off the view is the rail cap itself.  One thing I discovered is that for the rail to work, meaning to have the forward stanchions canted inward at a drastic angle and then to slowly become plum as they move aft along the main rail....means the rail itself could not follow the outline of the edge of the hull, or the main rail.  There had to be room allowance for the mizzen shrouds to pass by the railing.

 

This slight forward offset....that had to then become aligned, was a difficult task to accomplish and in doing so changed the appearance of the poop deck lines.  Ever so slightly.  Now the house is properly aligned with the main rail(some slight issues here and there), but the railing can throw you off.

 

The true difficulty...again, as I've said before, is translating all the elements flawlessly.  Sometimes one or more elements need *tweaking*, or just plain altering to make the entirety work.  Both the main aft cabin and the helm cabin are slightly angled to allow for the curve of the hull in that portion.  But not everything is perfect.  I wish we lived in a perfect world.

 

We're shooting for it, but at times we over or under shoot.  That's the nature of target practice.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

What I'm working out is the location of window and doors on the helm house.  Two image show slightly different configs...at least I think I see it that way.

 

The stern image shows one port door and two windows...but this other image of her last open water image might show 2 doors and one more window?

 

Rob

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  The second window seems blocked by a man in the upper picture.  Cabins most often have a symmetry in the design, and the lower photo share seems to show a second window on the port side.  A second door is not as clear, but would not be unreasonable in a balanced layout.

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

What I'm working out is the location of window and doors on the helm house.  Two image show slightly different configs...at least I think I see it that way.

 

The stern image shows one port door and two windows...but this other image of her last open water image might show 2 doors and one more window?

 

Rob

Rob, in the top scene close up with men on deck on the Port side, I see an open doorway and closer to the Stern a window. From a design viewpoint it wouldn't make sense to two doors so close together for a simple Wheelhouse. It appears that when they extended this structure they added another window in front of the door, which looks nicely balanced in the last picture. 

Another bonus of the Alaskan towing scene is that if you look closely you can really make out the complex molding on the rear of the Wheelhouse. 

[rwiederrich]

Yes, but in the pic of her last seen under sail the helm house has 2 doors and 3 windows on the starboard side.......Check it out.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Yes, but in the pic of her last seen under sail the helm house has 2 doors and 3 windows on the starboard side.......Check it out.

 

Rob

Rob, I'm familiar with the scene you mention. Glory's sailing with a small amount of "patched and patched sails. It also occurs to me that, since the original face of the Wheelhouse had no front door, when an addition was made, new entrances would also have to be provided. So it makes perfect sense now that an additional door on each side would have been added. 

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, I'm familiar with the scene you mention. Glory's sailing with a small amount of "patched and patched sails. It also occurs to me that, since the original face of the Wheelhouse had no front door, when an addition was made, new entrances would also have to be provided. So it makes perfect sense now that an additional door on each side would have been added. 

Did you see the extra doors on the starboard side?   This is after her 1872 mods but before her conversion to a barge for coal and fish.  
 

Rob