Glory of the Seas medium clipper 1869 - FINISHED - by rwiederrich - 1/96

[ClipperFan]

What is it with Donald McKay and fires anyway? His first Extreme Clipper "Staghound" burnt to the waterline, the same fate happened to two of the four James Baines Australian line Clippers "Lightning" and his namesake "James Baines." There was the horrific fiery loss of "Ocean Monarch" a magnificent Packet Ship. Poor "Great Republic" herself didn't ignite but sparks from a nearby bakery lit her up. She burned to the waterline and finally was scuttled to extinguish the flames. Although famous Captain NB Palmer salvaged her, due to intense fire damage, she was relaunched basically as a razee, with her 4th deck entirely removed and her once impressive rig greatly reduced in size. In Richard McKay's book, there's a tale of the tragic fate of almost all of Donald McKay's Builder's models. It's related, I think by his son who submitted his authentic half Hull of "Staghound" to a Boston Maritime Museum. He states that it was personally constructed using precise dimensions, taken from loft lines, as the vessel was being built. Apparently Donald used his priceless models as raw fuel kindling to stay warm during the cold winters in rural Massachusetts. All lost to fire. Now we learn that even historic notes themselves have also perished in.... fire, what else?

Edited February 6, 2021 by ClipperFan
Finish sentence

[rwiederrich]

5 hours ago, druxey said:

Back to the form of stem! I've straightened the photo and superimposed a circular arc in perspective, then the line of the stem and a vertical. The arrowed set-back, measured in stem-widths should establish the angle accurately. The circular arc appears to have a radius of keel to waterline, more or less. Comments?

 

 

Here are some more measurements.  thangle hasd to be reversed from the line drawn down from the martingale.  the 90deg is established from the line of the keel.  Note the 90deg on the hull.  All of the angles are noted.  Remember the ship was on her ways..probably(from my measurements was roughly 3deg.

It appears from my measurements that the incline of the stem was roughly 83deg,   I noted both angles for the stem curve from the cutwater to the figurehead.  One from true plum(from the martingale) and one from the actual 90deg. from keel horizontal.

 

Upon further eval it appears the curve of the stem is a slight paraboloid.  But photographic anomalies might be at play..due to the angle of the photograph.

 

Your view/opinion up to now?

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

druxey

Now we're talking scientific precision! I took a compass to the image on my phone and it appears to be a 5 degree incline backwards. Also it does appear that while below the waterline, she appears arrow straight, it's not exactly, as the edge curves forward ever so minutely. I've also read that Glory's Hull was sheathed with yellow metal up to 22'. Knowing that fact, we can measure her height above the waterline. My phone is too small to accurately calculate this but visually it appears that her dimensions above the waterline are slightly more than below. My estimate from Keel to Monkeyrail is close to 50'.

Her measurements at Starboard loading port can be calculated by counting strakes, which have been published as being 6 1/2" each. Unless anybody else has a more accurate count, this is the number found from a clear enough image of Glory on the ways: waterline to bottom of port 9 strakes, 58 1/2", side of port 4 strakes, 26" ; port to main deck lower molding 7 strakes, 45 1/2" total= 130" or 10.83' probably 11'. main deck rail height is 5', monkey rail above that is 18", 1 1/2'. I don't know if three 6" moldings (lower main, upper main and monkey rail) add to height or not, excluding them she's 17 1/2' above waterline. Counting depth for moldings she's 19'. Combined with a 22' waterline below that comes to either 39 1/2' or 41' at her Starboard loading dock. 

 

Michael tells me that her gunwal was over 6'....Evidenced by first hand accounts of her crew commenting on how high her sides were from deck level...making a simple look over her sides a near impossibility for the average sailor.

This causes one to conclude that all those folks hanging over her rail amidships in her launching image..must have been standing on something on the deck....possibly finishing lumber or kneeling on her pin rail.

 

See how tall her sides were.

 

Great sleuthing.....

 

Rob

Edited February 6, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, TheAuthorsDaughter said:

Dad actually has two books that have been submitted for publishing (not approved yet and a daunting process unless someone has a benefactor). They’re both on different time periods of Glory and more  on particular voyage or people vs the vessel itself. He has enough file folders of photos and data on her (a few file cabinet drawers) for a few books! Over the years he’s become more of a generalist in maritime matters (not solely focused on clipper ships) so Glory hasn’t been only focus but fortunately with time more info has come forward and more of her history has been unearthed. Sadly the most important and pertinent was destroyed by fire back East or hasn’t come to light.

 

One reason why I am holding out from making a final decision...waiting on Michael to provide more images to aid in either aiding in our conclusions or diminishing them all together.

Tell Michael we are so excited and the passion for accuracy is what drives us to be as precise as possible.

 

Rob

Edited February 6, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

What is it with Donald McKay and fires anyway? His first Extreme Clipper "Staghound" burnt to the waterline, the same fate happened to two of the four James Baines Australian line Clippers "Lightning" and his namesake "James Baines." There was the horrific fiery loss of "Ocean Monarch" a magnificent Packet Ship. Poor "Great Republic" herself didn't ignite but sparks from a nearby bakery lit her up. She burned to the waterline and finally was scuttled to extinguish the flames. Although famous Captain NB Palmer salvaged her, due to intense fire damage, she was relaunched basically as a razee, with her 4th deck entirely removed and her once impressive rig greatly reduced in size. In Richard McKay's book, there's a tale of the tragic fate of almost all of Donald McKay's Builder's models. It's related, I think by his son who submitted his authentic half Hull of "Staghound" to a Boston Maritime Museum. He states that it was personally constructed using precise dimensions, taken from loft lines, as the vessel was being built. Apparently Donald used his priceless models as raw fuel kindling to stay warm during the cold winters in rural Massachusetts. All lost to fire. Now we learn that even historic notes themselves have also perished in.... fire, what else?

 

The ultimate consequence of using the medium of wood to construct your creations.

 

All I can suggest is that you, as myself, wait for Michael to provide photographic evidence to aid in any conclusive decision concerning her lines.  Physical evidence(such as what we are gathering) is tough/hard evidence....and we both see the same things in each photograph....but Michael assures me there are so many more images to scour through that any premature conclusions....regardless of how convinced we may be from what we have already gathered, so we must be patient to gather all available data.  And Brother...we haven't seen everything.   

But if this is all we had...then I think we could be close.

 

Keep at it...your tenacity is assuring.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

I wish to share an edited email I received from Michael.  It sheds some light on our discussion.   The main reason why I want to be patient.

 

"We have to remember that both Patterson and Walters were both professionals but that they were not infallible (Other artists such as Charles Waldron, George Ekren---who commanded Glory in 1902, William Coulter, and several others also made paiintings of her.  Whereas, the actual photos do not lie and the launching image which distinctly shows her stem as straight below the waterline can be discerned when you put a straight edge next to the photo image.  That is one of the images  Ron Haug worked from when he did his drawing and he has the skills developed from being a shipwright for all of his working life (he is 83 years old).  I will be writing him a letter this coming week and I will send him copies of photos (I don;t recall what ones I sent to him ten years ago) and ask him to see whether he  sees anything different than what he did. 

 

Please note that  I have close to 80 drawings which Ron has done over the years and this includes his preparing drawings of many of McKay's clippers.  He not only worked from builder's models but also worked from offsets preserved in U. S. Customs records held by National Archives. These offsets, derived from Custom House admeasurements are the actual dimensions derrived by government employes to establish gross and net tonnages by actually measuring the interior of a hull according to Custom House regulations.  Unfortunately, the original admeasurement for Glory was burned in a filre at the Boston Custom House in the year 1893 so we have to 'guess' what she looked like other than photo analysis.

 

My 'challenge' is indexing all of my existing photographs and catagorizing them by period.  When you figure, I first started gathering information on Glory of the Seas back in the year 1957 and thereafter have accomulated photos of her besides getting copies of plans drawn by a number of people  My goal is to incorporate this into a revised set of plans similar in format to those I drew in 1979"

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Just for giggles....here are some more images of her bow...photos and paintings

 

Though in the painting, her cheek ornamentation (beneath/behind her figurehead)   did not extend onto her hull.

Edited February 6, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

Richard...remember the Donald McKay's lines are pretty close to Glory's...apart from the more vertical stem below the waterline.

 

So close but not full enough.

Edited February 6, 2021 by rwiederrich

[TheAuthorsDaughter]

On 2/5/2021 at 7:12 PM, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

I almost forgot, you're welcome. I love finding these really neat publications. Often, especially in the 50s & 60s books geared towards younger audiences have some surprisingly rare photos, paintings and ship's blueprints.

I don't know if you've ever heard of this but I just ordered it. "Around in the Glory: Chronicle of the 42nd Voyage of 'Glory of the Seas' around Cape Horn" by the ship's captain Daniel McLaughlin. Description says it's illustrated. If it contains any new images, I will certainly share them.

If you have the second book written by my father you will find much of the above book referenced, the  family gave my father an original typed copy of it and their permission and blessing to expound further on his  journeys aboard Glory along with far more information than could be put into one book. He has been collecting/compiling information for years and I’m hoping he’s been spurred to finish getting everything catalogued - his index between books, various ship plans, charts and  photos is getting close to 400 pages and covers an extremely wide variety of maritime history (and is not just on Glory). He’s also assisted other writers with their endeavors usually as he as information due to  a parallel project that necessitated research. Occasionally new data shows up that corroborates a sliver of data he had but couldn’t verify so a new file gets started for possible future use. The Glory hull is one of those items however that has been a challenge!!

[ClipperFan]

TheAuthorsDaughter

Arina, it occured to me that the sole image of Glory's Starboard Broadside on  level viewpoint "Glory of the Seas at San Pedro dock 1907" is from 'Tall Ships on Puget Sound' published Nov 7, 2007. 

I made a copy of the page from the book I bought years ago and shared in on this site for personal research only, not to make a profit. What I don't know is this. Since your dad is a published author, is it a copyright infringement to share this with our friend in Australia? If so, there are lots of copies of this book available for roughly $5.00. One could be bought and sent to him.

[ClipperFan]

The American Clipper "Glory of the Seas" off of the South Stack, Anglessey" British Artist Charles J Waldron

Originally in posession of one of the owners of the Clipper Ship.

For accuracy, not one of my favorites, ironically due to the Bow being too elongated, Bowsprit steeve to low. She's depicted as originally launched, before her Wheelhouse was lenghtened.

[ClipperFan]

"Glory of the Seas off Fort Mason" & "Glory of the Seas off the Farralon Islands, 1912" both by American Artist William A Coulter

It's clearly apparent from the paintings of both contemporary artist who were able to view this Clipper Ship in person that she had a very deep Hull, much deeper than later Maine built deepwater "Down Easters." 

[ClipperFan]

"Glory of the Seas off Fort Mason" & "Glory of the Seas off the Farralon Islands, 1912" both by American Artist William A Coulter

It's clearly apparent from the paintings of both contemporary artist who were able to view this Clipper Ship in person that she had a very deep Hull, much deeper than later Maine built deepwater "Down Easters." 

"The American Clipper Glory of the Seas" Henry Scott, British Artist

 

 

[ClipperFan]

"Conquerors of Cape Horn, Clippers Glory of the Seas with Young America in Background. 1879" 

Carl G Evers, American Artist

One of my favorite depictions of Glory, very atmospheric showing both vessels fully laden plowing through heavy seas.

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

Thanks for the excerpt of Michael Mjelde's email to you. It's amazing, he started researching Glory about 64 years ago! That's a lifetime of dedication to this unique vessel. Just imagine the documents that must be in his posession. Maybe someday he'll open a museum of his own. He mentioned that Ron Haug has done work on other McKay Clippers. Since Ron's from Down Under, an educated guess would be those vessels which served Oz "Lightning" "James Baines" "Champion of the Seas" and "Donald McKay." Possibly also "City of Adelaide" currently under restoration and "Red Jacket" which also brought Immigrants to Australia. It would be immensely enjoyable to see Ron's work on other Clippers but for now, I'm going to keep focused on getting "Glory of the Seas" right, once and for all. While Mr Mjelde is absolutely right that artist's works are subjective, to the degree we can compensate for perspective distortion, photographic evidence is more reliable. 

I agree too Rob, that her gunwales are much higher than 6 1/2' based on interior Main Deck level photo. Adding in 3 moldings 6" each brings that height to 8'. 6" molding below 5' Main deck wall 6" molding above, 18" Monkey Rail with 6" molding on top. 

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

Thanks for the excerpt of Michael Mjelde's email to you. It's amazing, he started researching Glory about 64 years ago! That's a lifetime of dedication to this unique vessel. Just imagine the documents that must be in his posession. Maybe someday he'll open a museum of his own. He mentioned that Ron Haug has done work on other McKay Clippers. Since Ron's from Down Under, an educated guess would be those vessels which served Oz "Lightning" "James Baines" "Champion of the Seas" and "Donald McKay." Possibly also "City of Adelaide" currently under restoration and "Red Jacket" which also brought Immigrants to Australia. It would be immensely enjoyable to see Ron's work on other Clippers but for now, I'm going to keep focused on getting "Glory of the Seas" right, once and for all. While Mr Mjelde is absolutely right that artist's works are subjective, to the degree we can compensate for perspective distortion, photographic evidence is more reliable. 

I agree too Rob, that her gunwales are much higher than 6 1/2' based on interior Main Deck level photo. Adding in 3 moldings 6" each brings that height to 8'. 6" molding below 5' Main deck wall 6" molding above, 18" Monkey Rail with 6" molding on top. 

I cropped the Alaskan Inlet image, brightened it up a little to reveal Glory's details and compared it to original. Then to give better comparison to the San Pedro shot, the last image is reversed. Prow and Stern are more clearly visible but she's stern down making her Bow angle appear more verticle. Adjusting her position to level would correct this. Additional factory structures unfortunately mar her original graceful sheer. 

[ClipperFan]

On 2/6/2021 at 1:46 PM, rwiederrich said:

 

 

Here are some more measurements.  thangle hasd to be reversed from the line drawn down from the martingale.  the 90deg is established from the line of the keel.  Note the 90deg on the hull.  All of the angles are noted.  Remember the ship was on her ways..probably(from my measurements was roughly 3deg.

It appears from my measurements that the incline of the stem was roughly 83deg,   I noted both angles for the stem curve from the cutwater to the figurehead.  One from true plum(from the martingale) and one from the actual 90deg. from keel horizontal.

 

Upon further eval it appears the curve of the stem is a slight paraboloid.  But photographic anomalies might be at play..due to the angle of the photograph.

 

Your view/opinion up to now.

 

Rob

 

On 2/6/2021 at 1:46 PM, rwiederrich said:

 

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

Great mathematical work! So it appears that starting just below the 2nd Bobstay Chain, Glory's Bow is almost a straight time, with just the most imperceptible curve forward, down to her keel at -7 degrees of vertical.

It should be possible to accurately calculate length of her Naval Hoods from her Bow, based on the fact we know her Goddess Figurehead is 90" using angle of inclination. By carefully reconstructing these dimensions, it should be possible to confidently rebuild her dimensions, leading to a very accurate Hull.

[TheAuthorsDaughter]

4 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

TheAuthorsDaughter

Arina, it occured to me that the sole image of Glory's Starboard Broadside on  level viewpoint "Glory of the Seas at San Pedro dock 1907" is from 'Tall Ships on Puget Sound' published Nov 7, 2007. 

I made a copy of the page from the book I bought years ago and shared in on this site for personal research only, not to make a profit. What I don't know is this. Since your dad is a published author, is it a copyright infringement to share this with our friend in Australia? If so, there are lots of copies of this book available for roughly $5.00. One could be bought and sent to him.

My father said he’d be happy to answer that and explain to you the ins and outs of said issue - feel free to email him. He is pretty good about answering emails. He generally checks them at least twice a day and it’s a great way to communicate with him (he and I email back and forth as it’s also an efficient way sometimes to communicate LOL)!

mjmjelde38@cs.com

[ClipperFan]

TheAuthorsDaughter

Arina please thank your dad for me, on his gracious willingness to share his contact info with us. 

FYI since to me at least this is the best broadside view of her intact Hull, today I emailed the research team at Puget Sound Maritime Hstorical Society to get specifics on how to secure a better copy of "Glory of the Seas" at San Pedro, 1907, PSMHS No 1028-5

[TheAuthorsDaughter]

19 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

TheAuthorsDaughter

Arina please thank your dad for me, on his gracious willingness to share his contact info with us. 

FYI since to me at least this is the best broadside view of her intact Hull, today I emailed the research team at Puget Sound Maritime Hstorical Society to get specifics on how to secure a better copy of "Glory of the Seas" at San Pedro, 1907, PSMHS No 1028-5

He could’ve probably answered that for you as well - he’s part of the editorial board (or at least I think he still is LoL)

[rwiederrich]

This image shows the bow clearly and almost to the keel foot...

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, TheAuthorsDaughter said:

He could’ve probably answered that for you as well - he’s part of the editorial board (or at least I think he still is LoL)

 

[ClipperFan]

Arina,

I sent an email to your dad and will let you know his reply. Thanks again for both of your generosity!

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

This image shows the bow clearly and almost to the keel foot...

 

Rob

 

[ClipperFan]

Rob, 

This view demonstrates how sharp Glory's entrance really was. It explains how she was able to complete a very credible 96 day passage from New York to San Francisco. 

Her extreme list to Port is clearly visible. A factor which has to be taken into consideration when observing her beached from Starboard Broadside viewpoint.

[Tony Hunt]

On 2/3/2021 at 1:32 PM, TheAuthorsDaughter said:

Pat - Ron Haug is who my father has been working with down your way - via snail mail. He is a retired shipwright and he lives in S. Maroubra, New South Wales. He was also an excellent modelmaker.

 

Mr Haug is a Sydneysider, like me.  A quick Google search reveals he was a shipbuilder in Newcastle (a port city a couple of hours north up the coast) and is now 84 years old.  Maroubra is in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, with a well-known surf beach. 

 

 

 

I'd be happy to meet him!

[ClipperFan]

6 hours ago, Tony Hunt said:

 

Mr Haug is a Sydneysider, like me.  A quick Google search reveals he was a shipbuilder in Newcastle (a port city a couple of hours north up the coast) and is now 84 years old.  Maroubra is in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, with a well-known surf beach. 

 

 

 

I'd be happy to meet him!

 

[ClipperFan]

Tony Hunt,

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're volunteering to be Michael Mjelde's and this group's "digital mailman" so to speak. Theoretically, we should be able to attach pdf files to this site. You can then bring them to Ron Haug (from what I've read, Australia is pretty much Coronavirus free compared to the petri dish that is America). Here's a trial run. See if you can open this pdf file. It's "In Bound from Bellingham, 'Glory of the Seas' at San Pedro, 1907"

20180920_184241.jpg.pdf

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Tony Hunt,

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're volunteering to be Michael Mjelde's and this group's "digital mailman" so to speak. Theoretically, we should be able to attach pdf files to this site. You can then bring them to Ron Haug (from what I've read, Australia is pretty much Coronavirus free compared to the petri dish that is America). Here's a trial run. See if you can open this pdf file. It's "In Bound from Bellingham, 'Glory of the Seas' at San Pedro, 1907"

20180920_184241.jpg.pdf

 

[ClipperFan]

Attempt to attach a pdf file was blocked. Simply typing in the url address failed too. If given an accurate e-mail address, this will work. I have successfully sent many pdf files to my local print shop to enlarge images as well as print those images in larger formats up to Ledger size not supported by my in home printer.