Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[rwiederrich]

They are not perfect,  there are slight imperfections in the paint and turned surfaces.  When it dries I’ll work it a bit more.  
 

Rob

[BANYAN]

Great work on 'chapeling those masts Rob, very nice indeed despite your so called imperfections.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited October 29, 2021 by BANYAN

[ClipperFan]

Rob, I have learned over the years that the most likely toughest critic of your creative process.... is you yourself. As a fellow artist, I understand and respect that attitude. Being our own toughest critics means we are relentlessly pursuing perfection in ourselves. The trick, I'm admittedly still learning is to also accept and even celebrate our triumphs. I would say your composite masts are such a triumph. They are really beautiful already. How you can improve on them is beyond me. It will be fascinating to see the red bands contrasting the beautifully varnished wood with white internal contrasts.

Edited October 30, 2021 by ClipperFan
Spell-Czech correction

[ClipperFan]

From Mike's last direct Stern "GLORY of the SEAS" docked in Alaska image. Here's my sketch incorporating the knowledge learned from that very detailed picture. Two qualities of this picture made the biggest impression on me. First, her curvilinear stern is far less rounded than first impressions made us consider. Second, we can now be sure that McKay's Rear Carriage House did indeed get narrower towards the Stern in order to accomodate generous walkways with sufficient space for crew to work the ship. Compare this sketch to that of the Model Shipways "Flying Fish." What I also find fascinating is that even with the wider profile, this section of Glory still looks very sleek and graceful.

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

From Mike's last direct Stern "GLORY of the SEAS" docked in Alaska image. Here's my sketch incorporating the knowledge learned from that very detailed picture. Two qualities of this picture made the biggest impression on me. First, her curvilinear stern is far less rounded than first impressions made us consider. Second, we can now be sure that McKay's Rear Carriage House did indeed get narrower towards the Stern in order to accomodate generous walkways with sufficient space for crew to work the ship. Compare this sketch to that of the Model Shipways "Flying Fish." What I also find fascinating is that even with the wider profile, this section of Glory still looks very sleek and graceful.

I agree about the carriage house curving to accommodate the curve of the hull.  I made my carriage house curve, but not enough, and I didn’t make the roof follow the slight curve of the walls, so it gets unnoticed.
However, that is where we part. 
 

The image of her on the beach shows clearly, if you follow her rail, that it slowly curves around her stern.  
 

Look closely….see her starboard rail curves slowly…….not abruptly as depicted, but slowly.  
Im still convinced she has a nearly round stern , slightly ablate at the fantail,  or slightly “curvilinear”.  Kinda Like what you depicted but far less extreme
 

Sorry .

 

Rob

Edited October 30, 2021 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

I agree about the carriage house curving to accommodate the curve of the hull.  I made my carriage house curve, but not enough, and I didn’t make the roof follow the slight curve of the walls, so it gets unnoticed.
However, that is where we part. 
 

The image of her on the beach shows clearly, if you follow her rail, that it slowly curves around her stern.  
 

Look closely….see her starboard rail curves slowly…….not abruptly as depicted, but slowly.  
Im still convinced she has a nearly round stern , slightly ablate at the fantail,  or slightly “curvilinear”.  Kinda Like what you depicted but far less extreme
 

Sorry .

 

Rob

Rob, I think I see what your describing. Do me a favor please? Revise the shape from the back end of the Rear Carriage House to where the back end of the Wheelhouse begins, so I can see what type of curve you mean. That's the section I believe you're referring to as being too extreme.

Edited October 30, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional information

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

After reviewing the image of Glory's Stern from the scene of her beached at Endolyne I reconsidered my sketch. Apparently I got caught up in the same observers perspective bias I repeatedly warned others of.

This is the reworked rear section of the sketch from back ends of Rear Carriage House to rear corners of her Wheelhouse. Her Starboard side came out better than her Port one. If you agree that this is accurate, I can refine this to make it more balanced.

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by ClipperFan
revised image

[rwiederrich]

On 10/31/2021 at 3:58 PM, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

After reviewing the image of Glory's Stern from the scene of her beached at Endolyne I reconsidered my sketch. Apparently I got caught up in the same observers perspective bias I repeatedly warned others of.

This is the reworked rear section of the sketch from back ends of Rear Carriage House to rear corners of her Wheelhouse. Her Starboard side came out better than her Port one. If you agree that this is accurate, I can refine this to make it more balanced.

 

Now that looks much better,  that I can agree with.  Could be even slightly rounded with that flatter fantail.   
 

Great job Rich.   I like it. 
 

Rob(but who am I)

[ClipperFan]

Rob, thanks for the vote of confidence in my revised "GLORY of the SEAS" fantail. As I see it, a limiting factor in further side rounding of this area is the surprisingly larger 15' wide Wheelhouse. From the tragic scene of Glory beached at Endolyne the minimal rear curve of the  Wheelhouse roof can be observed. Sufficient clearance for crew to work around the Wheelhouse of necessity dictates the rear Stern shape and interestingly verifies Michael Mjelde's sketch of this area in his deck blueprint.

My ultimate hope is to offer all of these sketches and a select number of process photos of yours and Vladimir's models to NRG when I write a summation of our fascinating discoveries of Glory's beautiful Hull. At this point, depending on how well the first article is received I anticipate a follow up piece when either one or both vessels are fully rigged. 

[rwiederrich]

9 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, thanks for the vote of confidence in my revised "GLORY of the SEAS" fantail. As I see it, a limiting factor in further side rounding of this area is the surprisingly larger 15' wide Wheelhouse. From the tragic scene of Glory beached at Endolyne the minimal rear curve of the  Wheelhouse roof can be observed. Sufficient clearance for crew to work around the Wheelhouse of necessity dictates the rear Stern shape and interestingly verifies Michael Mjelde's sketch of this area in his deck blueprint.

My ultimate hope is to offer all of these sketches and a select number of process photos of yours and Vladimir's models to NRG when I write a summation of our fascinating discoveries of Glory's beautiful Hull. At this point, depending on how well the first article is received I anticipate a follow up piece when either one or both vessels are fully rigged. 

Why I still reserve the right to think the stern is more round then oblate on its edges.

I used a simple drawing program to illustrate the more circular stern and slightly flat on the central fantail.

 

I used a circle templet and imposed it against the rail on the starboard side and it matches pretty close.  Follow along the edge of templet and the edge of the rail and the edge of the planksheer.

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

9 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Why I still reserve the right to think the stern is more round then oblate on its edges.

I used a simple drawing program to illustrate the more circular stern and slightly flat on the central fantail.

 

I used a circle templet and imposed it against the rail on the starboard side and it matches pretty close.  Follow along the edge of templet and the edge of the rail and the edge of the planksheer.

Good stuff Rob, 

but still. From photographical perspective I would still be reserved to draw conclusions for various reasons - 

im not 100 percent certain to which extent is curve took from that view accurate. 

 

it looks of course very round this way. but there are two dramatic aspects that may totally mislead us and we know nothing of them. 

 

1. seems photographer is very near waterlevel. but - presumably not far - but glory looks very tall - so two options are on tabe - was photographer very nearby * therefore he must have used very wide lens ! dramatically changing perspective

 

or he might have been far and therefore use ! normal or rather long lens and in that case your assumption would be eprfectla correct....

 

i cant say now many feet or meters is photo taken from - if someone made such experiment with existing vessels and sterns of various curvature from same angle distance etc...that would be epic.....

 

it does look very roundish but i can tell quite confidently ! it can be pretty steep from other view. for this I personally call this photo Most decieving and almost hellish or cursed in a way of taking assumptions :)) 

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Why I still reserve the right to think the stern is more round then oblate on its edges.

I used a simple drawing program to illustrate the more circular stern and slightly flat on the central fantail.

 

I used a circle templet and imposed it against the rail on the starboard side and it matches pretty close.  Follow along the edge of templet and the edge of the rail and the edge of the planksheer.

Rob, this oval really does match up closely with a good portion of Glory's stern from this angle. My interpretation was based on the observation of Glory's stern and Wheelhouse roof from the Alaska photo. Looking at this other scene it does appear that the Wheelhouse roof curve is less round than her Stern counter and poop deck railing. As a work in progress, it looks like another slight rounding rework of her Stern is in order.

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Good stuff Rob, 

but still. From photographical perspective I would still be reserved to draw conclusions for various reasons - 

im not 100 percent certain to which extent is curve took from that view accurate. 

 

it looks of course very round this way. but there are two dramatic aspects that may totally mislead us and we know nothing of them. 

 

1. seems photographer is very near waterlevel. but - presumably not far - but glory looks very tall - so two options are on tabe - was photographer very nearby * therefore he must have used very wide lens ! dramatically changing perspective

 

or he might have been far and therefore use ! normal or rather long lens and in that case your assumption would be eprfectla correct....

 

i cant say now many feet or meters is photo taken from - if someone made such experiment with existing vessels and sterns of various curvature from same angle distance etc...that would be epic.....

 

it does look very roundish but i can tell quite confidently ! it can be pretty steep from other view. for this I personally call this photo Most decieving and almost hellish or cursed in a way of taking assumptions :)) 

Vladimir, I've seen many large tall Ships on parade and docked. One consistent factor is how huge these vessels really are. Even relatively smaller square riggers like the Whaler Charles W Morgan require surprisingly more distance than you would expect to fit the entire vessel into a camera's frame. I've taken such pictures with ordinary cameras not equipped with a telephoto lens. Invariably I'm disappointed with the lack of discernible details as a result. 

Since you can see Glory's specific items quite distinctly, my conclusion is that this shot was done on a boat, with large professional camera on a stable platform, a telephoto lens taken from a great distance. It was most likely as a companion image for a contemporary newspaper article.

[rwiederrich]

12 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, this oval really does match up closely with a good portion of Glory's stern from this angle. My interpretation was based on the observation of Glory's stern and Wheelhouse roof from the Alaska photo. Looking at this other scene it does appear that the Wheelhouse roof curve is less round than her Stern counter and poop deck railing. As a work in progress, it looks like another slight rounding rework of her Stern is in order.

This circle matrix is representative of a vertical circle under the stern......I wanted to use a visual to aid in identification of what distortion hides.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Good stuff Rob, 

but still. From photographical perspective I would still be reserved to draw conclusions for various reasons - 

im not 100 percent certain to which extent is curve took from that view accurate. 

 

it looks of course very round this way. but there are two dramatic aspects that may totally mislead us and we know nothing of them. 

 

1. seems photographer is very near waterlevel. but - presumably not far - but glory looks very tall - so two options are on tabe - was photographer very nearby * therefore he must have used very wide lens ! dramatically changing perspective

 

or he might have been far and therefore use ! normal or rather long lens and in that case your assumption would be eprfectla correct....

 

i cant say now many feet or meters is photo taken from - if someone made such experiment with existing vessels and sterns of various curvature from same angle distance etc...that would be epic.....

 

it does look very roundish but i can tell quite confidently ! it can be pretty steep from other view. for this I personally call this photo Most decieving and almost hellish or cursed in a way of taking assumptions :)) 

The lower angle is most advantageous because it aids in identifying the stern as more calendrical then abrupt with oblate edges.

 

Clues, clues, clues help evaluate reality.

 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

45 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

The lower angle is most advantageous because it aids in identifying the stern as more calendrical then abrupt with oblate edges.

 

Clues, clues, clues help evaluate reality.

 

Rob

yes its true. I think I didnt take that into consideration. I think i was a bit wrong here. . Im more convinced now, and think her bottom of stern is definitely rounder than i thought.. and surely rounder than upper rail.  thanks for your remarks. V. 

[ClipperFan]

55 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

The lower angle is most advantageous because it aids in identifying the stern as more calendrical then abrupt with oblate edges.

 

Clues, clues, clues help evaluate reality.

 

Rob

Rob, that's the advantage to having a group approach. One person sees what another misidentises or just misses. Since the contemporary article describes her Stern as being curvilinear, she definitely didn't have a fully rounded counter. Probably a bigger comparison is the difference between the flatter Wheelhouse roof profile versus her Stern. What really began this particular evaluation was my discovery of the wider, consistent walkways around her Rear Carriage House which also conforms to the curving rear section which even the "Flying Fish" plans got wrong. 

[rwiederrich]

20 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, that's the advantage to having a group approach. One person sees what another misidentises or just misses. Since the contemporary article describes her Stern as being curvilinear, she definitely didn't have a fully rounded counter. Probably a bigger comparison is the difference between the flatter Wheelhouse roof profile versus her Stern. What really began this particular evaluation was my discovery of the wider, consistent walkways around her Rear Carriage House which also conforms to the curving rear section which even the "Flying Fish" plans got wrong. 

Well, if we look up the word Curvilinear.  We will see that it means: Formed, bounded or characterized by curved lines.

In essence, it is s subjective word.  A word describing curved lines that are linear....(Together), but not straight.  

 

I see her curve as not a true spherical, but more oblate...where the apex of the fantail is the FLAT pole point and then it forms spherically as it terminates at the flat sides.

 

I see why Duncan used the subjective term Curvilinear....the current vernacular or  a looser translation would be...Roundish....

 

This all plays into the spectacular design parameters that McKay availed upon.  His entry and exit designs were his *trade* secrets and since, apart from his two pares of sister clippers, Star of Empire/Chariot of Fame and Commodore Perry/Japan, he never reproduced exact duplicate designs.  He kept improving, changing, experimenting.  Circlic designs are far more robust.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

8 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Well, if we look up the word Curvilinear.  We will see that it means: Formed, bounded or characterized by curved lines.

In essence, it is s subjective word.  A word describing curved lines that are linear....(Together), but not straight.  

 

I see her curve as not a true spherical, but more oblate...where the apex of the fantail is the FLAT pole point and then it forms spherically as it terminates at the flat sides.

 

I see why Duncan used the subjective term Curvilinear....the current vernacular or  a looser translation would be...Roundish....

 

This all plays into the spectacular design parameters that McKay availed upon.  His entry and exit designs were his *trade* secrets and since, apart from his two pares of sister clippers, Star of Empire/Chariot of Fame and Commodore Perry/Japan, he never reproduced exact duplicate designs.  He kept improving, changing, experimenting.  Circlic designs are far more robust.

 

Rob

Rob, here's the best print available from Peabody-Essex Museum, Salem, of McKay's twin Packets "Star of Empire & Chariot of Fame" supposedly sketched by Donald McKay himself. What better reference could there be for the curvilinear Stern of a McKay Hull?

While it's unfortunately not the best resolution, the rear Starboard view of Glory from the Standard Oil bulletin is almost the same angle as that of her beached at Endolyne. Major difference is that it's at water level instead which gives a good source to refer to her graceful curvilinear Stern.

Edited November 5, 2021 by ClipperFan
misspelled word

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

10 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, here's the best print available from Peabody-Essex Museum, Salem, of McKay's twin Packets "Star of Empire & Chariot of Fame" supposedly sketched by Donald McKay himself. What better reference could there be for the curvilinear Stern of a McKay Hull?

While it's unfortunately not the best resolution, the rear Starboard view of Glory from the Standard Oil bulletin is almost the same angle as that of her beached at Endolyne. Major difference is that it's at water level instead which gives a good source to refer to her graceful curvilinear Stern.

Great catch Richard. from vague eyeing it pretty much correaponds with Crothers American clipper "bible." by the way, your plan arrived. Thank you very much indeed,  im pretty excited but i want to share photo if it on display it deserves on my wall. V. 

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Great catch Richard. from vague eyeing it pretty much correaponds with Crothers American clipper "bible." by the way, your plan arrived. Thank you very much indeed,  im pretty excited but i want to share photo if it on display it deserves on my wall. V. 

Vladimir, thanks. I was thinking the same thing. This pretty much does match the curvilinear designation both from Crothers' American Clipper Ship book and the contemporary description by MacLean. There's one more ship's lines, I might have shared before. A tracing of the McKay Extreme Clipper "Flying Fish" which shows both her profile and half deck view. Her Stern too is.... guess what? Curvilinear.

I'm glad my Glory sketch finally arrived. It will be a thrill to see it properly framed and displayed.

[ClipperFan]

Vladimir, until I relocate the previous image I uploaded, this will have to suffice. It's a tracing of "Flying Fish" from Bergen, Sjosfort Museum, Norway. This is reported to have been taken directly from McKay's sketch. The curvilinear Stern is clearly visible. 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by ClipperFan
better image

[rwiederrich]

14 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir, until I relocate the previous image I uploaded, this will have to suffice. It's a tracing of "Flying Fish" from Bergen, Sjosfort Museum, Norway. This is reported to have been taken directly from McKay's sketch. The curvilinear Stern is clearly visible. 

 

These curvilinear sterns still don’t match Glory’s images.  Plus I think we are missing the greatest comparative discrepancy.

Glory was a full bodied MEDIUM clipper.  All of these examples presented are from extreme clippers.  An entirely different MODEL of clipper.  Requiring  completely different structural considerations when wood was the primary building material.  
 

Something to think about.  
 

Rob 

[ClipperFan]

Rob, at 2,050 tons the twin Packet Ships "Star of Empire & Chariot of Fame" are 53 tons shy of Glory's 2,103. They're referred to as Packets since they were passenger, not merchant vessels. Some contemporary descriptions refer to them also as Medium Clippers. 

I do agree that Glory's stern does look more rounded when viewed at water level, as she is in the Standard Oil scene. The only definitive way to know for sure would be if a picture existed from the Mizzen mast looking directly down. Until then, we have to approximate as best we can.

[ClipperFan]

Rob digging back in this thread, I found a much better image of the Extreme Clipper "Flying Fish" which has almost no distortion to it. The second print is the Admiralty Lines taken off the Medium Clipper "Donald McKay" while she was in Dry Dock. The lines are authentic. Disregard everything in pencil, which were my inaccurate attempt to recreate the look of her from a famous print. Again note the curvilinear Stern which is very similar to the others. Since Glory was built in 1869 and all others were constructed about a decade earlier, there's still room for further softening of the Stern but at this point it's still conjecture.

[ClipperFan]

Rob, in response to Mike's request for an update on model building progress, I sent him a couple images of your Glory build, were the Foremast railing and fore Companionway were included. These were both full length pics. I explained since Vladimir was still making some revisions, I was waiting to send updates on his progress.

Mike sent the following reply: "I finally had a chance to look at the photos and all I can say is "very impressive" !!! I will look at them more detailed tomorrow."

[rwiederrich]

5 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, in response to Mike's request for an update on model building progress, I sent him a couple images of your Glory build, were the Foremast railing and fore Companionway were included. These were both full length pics. I explained since Vladimir was still making some revisions, I was waiting to send updates on his progress.

Mike sent the following reply: "I finally had a chance to look at the photos and all I can say is "very impressive" !!! I will look at them more detailed tomorrow."

Thanks Rich.   I haven’t been in contact with Mike for a while.   I hope he enjoys the images you sent.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Thanks Rich.   I haven’t been in contact with Mike for a while.   I hope he enjoys the images you sent.  
 

Rob

Rob, I quoted Mike's words and exclamation points exactly. It sounds like he was very excited with the couple of pics I sent. Next I will send some of Vladimir's latest build efforts too. I also encouraged Mike to look into our progress online, if he has the time. Currently he's revising a 1969 article he wrote on the Clipper "Dashing Wave".

[rwiederrich]

16 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, I quoted Mike's words and exclamation points exactly. It sounds like he was very excited with the couple of pics I sent. 

I'm glad he approves...even though I have managed to reproduce some blatant errors  Namely the carriage house aft reduction and the forecastle height discrepancy.  I made these egregious mistakes, even after having all the correct information right in front of me.  My anxiousness to get her built, violated several of the  greatest  modelers tenants.  Patience and accuracy.

 

Today I re-evaluated my composite mast construction technique and, again, I think I am going to change the construction process up again.

 

I'm going to work from dowel material and use my table router to remove the chapeling material.  Turning the mast on the lather from glued square stock resulted in slightly off center round masts.  It is slight and thusly is caused the 4 chapeling segments to be slightly unsymmetrical.   It is hardly noticeable, but to me it is unacceptable.

 

This is what I referred too as slight blemishes, in an earlier post.

 

I'll set up a jig on my router table and cleanly cut even grooves.  This is how I did it on the masts for my Donald McKay clipper...but I used a home made mini table saw then.  This go around I will use a nice router bit.

 

Then as before...add the chapeling spacers and again, paint, and sand till clean and smooth.  Things will run truer on the lathe this time....resulting in much nicer composite masts.  IMV.

 

 

Rob

Edited November 8, 2021 by rwiederrich

[BANYAN]

I admire your openness (about errors) and work ethic to get it right Rob.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited November 8, 2021 by BANYAN