Mayflower by Bill97 - FINISHED - Trumpeter - 1/60 Scale - PLASTIC

[Bill97]

That was my exact curiosity. As you can see in the assembly instructions Trumpeter clearly shows the bowsprit angled across the front and the whole that the end of the bowsprit goes in is clearly off center. All of my previous builds had the bowsprit straight forward as you guys show. I agree with you but wondered if ships of Mayflower design had it angled?

 

I completed painting the ship. Like the way it came out. Ready to start the masts. Got to figure out this bowsprit configuration first. Also, Trumpeter did not include glue points or other molded connection points for attaching the yards to the masts. Just a round yard and a round mast. Any advice on how to attach them together if you have experienced this same issue?

[Bill97]

Found a number of pictures of the Mayflower II on line (replica of the original ship). Photos clearly show bowsprit coming straight forward as you guys say. Not sure what Trumpeter was thinking. Will have to do some changes. 

[Bill97]

[Bill97]

This is my English Man O War. Similar design and era. I think I can scratch build a change on the Mayflower to about this angle for the bowsprit. We will see. 

[kirill4]

Good day Bill,

I'm sure Trumpeter did something wrong here... as seems to me , they start it right, when positioned bowsprit stepped to the one side of the foremast , but after that they continued in wrong way when choosen such extreme angle for bowsprit ...

bowshprit need to be stepped to the one side of the foremast and stem and secured in such way that it's tip lays on the center line of the hull...so there will be angle to the hull and bowsprit will not be  parallel to center line, but this angle will be much less than Trumpeter did.

   There one more Trumpeter issue -  location of the main hatch 🙄🤔!!! 

If in case with bowsprit  I could understand more or less the way of their thinking, but in case with main hatch location I have no idea at all, why they placed it off the center line???🤔🤔🤔

This is only my thoughts, but not a call for starting scratch build😄

As I understood This model represents exact replica of Mayflower II, and there is very nice book devoted construction and building of this replica, this book written with his own hand by designer of MayflowerII replica...

I think it will be very usefull to have such book under hand as source of all nessary information while You continue building  your  model of replica Mayflower II.

In this book author gives description of functioning and sizes of all spars and rigging reproduced in replica, and also gives very interesting background of english shipbuilding in 16/begining 17 centuries...W.A.Baker The Mayflower and Other Colonial Vessels

and another book devoted to building Mayflower model written by german author N.C.L.Hackney ... it is in german, but  provided grafic material is very representative ...

I have both of them in digital form, if You need them let me know by email I will send You links for downloading for private use...

[kirill4]

bowsprit position - there are a few contemporary pictures-look at the ships which are in front vews

[Bill97]

Thanks kirill4. I have made corrections to the model which will align the bowsprit correctly. I cut a new hole in the forward bulkhead to accept the modified end of the bowsprit forward of the hatch door. I removed two sections of the grating and cut an elongated hole in the beakhead. These two steps will allow for proper placement of the gammoning rope. Now I will need to do repair sanding and repainting of the forward bulkhead to hopefully disguise where I made the changes. As far as the main hatch being off center I guess I will just live with that. That would be major work to try to change that. Thanks Kirill4 for the book information. I have access to a good number of books on the ship. Will let you know if I could use what you have. 

[Bill97]

Now for my next issue going forward. Something new with Trumpeter. There are no designated places molded into the yards or masts for connecting them together. On other models there was a “C” shaped mold on the back of the yard that would go around the mast at the appropriate place. This model does not have that. How do you attach the yards to the mast in this case?

[kirill4]

Good  day Bill,

By my opinion position of bowsprit looks much better now ... to avoid intensive modifications this position could be considered as final ! :))) 

But I meant something else in my previous post "... need to be stepped to the one side of the foremast and stem and secured in such way that it's tip lays on the center line of the hull...so there will be angle to the hull and bowsprit will not be  parallel to center line..."  but OK , maybe this position of the bowsprit will be not exactly hystorical accurate, but much better and  more correctly  than Trumpeter's proposal🙂

My sugestion was :

[kirill4]

by the way, such positioning of the bowsprit - off the center line, but stepped alongside fore mast  continue in use till the end of  the 17  th century -  look at the contemporary model of "Royal James 1671" and  its bowsprit location

[kirill4]

You asked how to secure yards to the mast -

I used piece of steel wire to connect yard and mast - drilled small holes in both and fitted wire between yard and mast... when yard fitted at place this wire couldn't be seen...

and  additionally yards secured to the masts by parrels - I've made them in simplified form, just to show this part of rigging presents...

[kirill4]

did You check the length of bowsprit... seems too short ?🙄

Edited January 6, 2021 by kirill4

[kirill4]

roughly say it should be same length as fore mast...

[Bill97]

Thanks again kirill4. I did not check the length of the bowsprit. It is just what the out of the box length is. I think I am learning Trumpeter ship models may lack some authentic. This Mayflower is my first Trumpeter model. Over all I think the pieces are high quality but the overall model lacks accuracy. I now understand what you meant by your he position of the he bowsprit. Since I have not glued it in place or repaired the forward bulkhead yet, if you were me would you move it again to your positioning or just leave it alone now?  Could you explain making the parrels for yard attachment?

 

[kirill4]

Good day Bill,

If I would be You , I will prefer to move it in more acurate  position :))) ...

  Franckly speaking I used to do countless rearrangements and  modification  of rigging in my model ,

often a few times changed  one spar or rigging ,so already became not  worry too much abt such issues...

  consider that old holes and damaged paints in plastic models always  could be easily recovered with suitable fillers,piece of plastics and new paint...and will looks same as before :)))

But If You don't want spend time for changing bowsprit position again, just leave it like that...anyway it will be better than kit's version.

  There is one point - You would better  to check length of bowsprit / as already discussed recently in "Revenge build " if it is short, there will be not sufficient space for spritsail operation ...

  and maybe there is sence to make it from wood - I changed main for wood ,made it from artists brush handle ,

using my DREMEL and sand paper I made brush handle to desired form ,than painted it in the same color as other remaining plastic spars painted...

the matter is (why need to make bowsprit from wood)- when You start rigging  bowsprit  will be quite loaded element , and if left it plastic there will be a big risk to bend it upward when You will rigging fore stays...

 

parrels - I made them from waist plastic sheet (take it from some instant noodles used pakage box) and so called Japanise bisser , which is almost twice smaller in size than conventional bisser , and this size was very good in scale for my model 1:100

for your model You could use ordinary bisser for main sails and japanise bisser for topsails...

there are a few pictures how I made my parrels ... and simplified diagram wich I made for parrel tackles arrangements

to fix temporary parrels on the mast wnen making loop on the parrels rope I used two sides scotch

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by kirill4

[kirill4]

there are some quality Mayflower drwngs(polish and german found them somewhere in internet fields) You could use as reference in case some modification need to be made , in particulars, there some modifications/adding elements (which missed in kit) need to be made on your stem and beakhead 

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/Vqn7/UW6PYR6ei

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/8gtE/UnD1EaEJh

Edited January 7, 2021 by kirill4

[kirill4]

there is suggestions for rigging arrangements... please check also positions ,sizes of your fore,main,and mizzen knights  ... biggest should be main knight, and they shoul have at least 3 sheeves in the knight for arranging tie hallyards  and one more sheeve for top rope ...

I saw on the pictures which You posted , that all your knights have same size...and only one hole in??? 

there shold be something like this \Duyfken replica

Edited January 7, 2021 by kirill4

[Bill97]

Kirill4 are the model pictures you are including in this discussion pictures from models you have completed?  If so, your work is incredible!  Even the precision in your rigging lines is fantastic. The more I work with this Trumpeter Mayflower the more I am thinking it does lack authenticity. I am going to make a longer bowsprit. After you mentioned it, I checked and it is to short. In looking ahead in the instructions I also see the rigging is pretty limited as compared to my other builds and photos of the Mayflower II replica. A definite benefit of building this ship has been my learning to fabricate corrections. Learning a lot from you and others. I plan to use the rigging instructions that I used to rig my English Man O War to rig the Mayflower. It may not be totally authentic but will definitely look better than the minimal rigging included in the instructions. 

[kirill4]

Good day Bill,

Yes ,those pictures from my model/different stage af assembling... it is not yet completed, almost 95% done ... :))) planned to complete it this my vacation... hope so ! :)))

Thank You very much for your attention to my experiments with rigging :)))

For rigging Mayflower,... why not use original rigging plan of Mayflower replica straight?

There are a few detailed rigging diagrams posted above, and from Mayflower original site as well... lets say this is standart rigging aarrangements for the ships of that period...You could also use rigging plans of GOLDEN HIND as well, which also were posted recently in nearest builds...

In the book A.Baker about Mayflower replica which I mentioned early You could found detailed description of all standing and running rigging ropes , how they rigged and secured...

You could load this book for private use frm here

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/MpaE/CZdnEmv6e

[kirill4]

guys,

just tried to make reverse translation from english to russian my posts...it looks like abracadabra of 10-15 % my written text

I'm very sorry for inconvinience when you are reading my "english" posts 🤪

Edited January 9, 2021 by kirill4

[Bill97]

Kirill4 do not apologize for your translation. It is fine. I have been able to follow your advice without issue. I do have the Golden Hind rigging instructions. I have that model still unopened. Planned for the future. Will get the instructions out to view rigging. 

[kirill4]

Good day Bill,

There are exelent rigging plans made by our colleague from Germany

eugen.t https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t6619f952-Alternative-Rekonstruktion-der-GOLDEN-HIND-11.html

You could use this rigging plans as well... rigging of Mayflower(replica) and GH in reconstruction are almost identical...

 

[Bill97]

What is also interesting about this model is there is only one pin rail on the entire model and it is at the base of the foremast. No others along the inside of the hull walls. Also no other belaying pins anywhere else on the ship. Assembly instructions have all the rigging lines tied to rails on the ship. 

[kirill4]

Good day Bill,

This is correct for the period of 16 - 17 centuries

No pin rails at all ! they not in use yet

some belaying pins however coud be used - fitted in holes drilled trough railings...- see Vasa artefacts and Mary Rose as examples....

no pinrails You will see as well on the drawing GH made by eugen.t I posted above

[kirill4]

thereis GH reconstruction by Aker 

[Baker]

9 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Assembly instructions have all the rigging lines tied to rails on the ship. 

I don't have any belaying pins on my Pelican / GH.
In this period, belaying pins were not yet in use.
The Mayflower is 40-50 later, she may have had these pins

[kirill4]

Good day,

Dear Baker,

As I knew, belaying pins were in use - such artefacts were found in ship wrecks of 16-17 centures...founds of remains of W. Barents expedition for example...there were belaying pins ...

may be You meant pin rails? as I understood,they were not in use in that period

[Bill97]

Thanks gentlemen. That is helpful information. Will follow assembly instructions showing rigging lines tied to rails. 
kirill4 I have my new bowsprit made from wood. I measured the angle and length of the bowsprit on the Golden Hind to get the right measurements. After I paint it I think it will work much better. 

[Bill97]

Got my new bowsprit painted and installed along with the sprit sail yard and a little rigging!  Thanks guys for your help and advice. Not sure how new builders can do it without help from guys like you. 

[kirill4]

Well done!:)))