St Roch by Lecrenb - 1:48 scale - RCMP Schooner rigged as schooner c. 1930/35

[Lecrenb]

11 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Beautiful work, Bruce. The best to ya on the knee replacement, enjoy the fishing and your trip to France. 

Thank you Keith! This will be our family's 18th annual fishing trip to Tobin Lake... I hope to make some more progress in between bouts of relaxation!

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Lecrenb]

11 hours ago, JacquesCousteau said:

Excellent work, it's great to see the whole model and how well it's coming together. Enjoy the summer!

Thank you very much! I will be checking in from time to time when I get a bit more done!

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Lecrenb]

1 hour ago, wmherbert said:

I also thought that furled sails would look best.

Bill

Thank you Bill... nice to see another St. Roch build underway!

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Lecrenb]

22 hours ago, Coyote_6 said:

Wishing you a quick recovery with the knee and of course safe travels.  She looks amazing Bruce!  Excellent subject.

Thank you very much Steve. Thanks for following along, enjoy your summer too!

Regards,

Bruce

[Lecrenb]

It has been about 2 weeks since my last update, and co-incidentally since I got my second knee! I'm now able to use the basement stairs, despite admonitions from SWMBO not to overdo things, so I was able to get a start on my summer to-do list!

First up is to build the small platform that extends out from the starboard fo'c's'le. Photos show this was added by the crew in 1929 during St. Roch's maiden voyage. She spent much of her career sailing through uncharted shoal waters, and Captain Larsen wanted a place from which to swing the lead and communicate easily with the wheelhouse.

Design plans show a sounding machine on the poop deck, but there is no information that it was ever installed. Larsen makes no mention of using it, and I am sure he would have found the location unsuitable for reporting soundings. I am not including it.

The first photos show the sounding platform being roughed out on my bench, then trial fitted on the ship...

The platform is hinged to the hull and there is a chain holding a brace in place underneath. 

The last photo shows the platform complete with the lead line...

The fo'c's'le railings are visible in some of the previous pictures, this next photo shows the starboard rail being formed...

Finally, here is an overview of the fo'c's'le deck with the rails and platform.

The rails are not painted white today, but period photos from 1930 to 1934, while b&w, show a very light colour, so I painted mine white.

It is time to build the anchor windlass and install the anchors before moving aft to finish the hull...

As always, thank for checking in and comments are always welcome!

[Dr PR]

AKA leading platform.

 

Very nice work!

[Lecrenb]

10 hours ago, Dr PR said:

AKA leading platform.

 

Very nice work!

Thank you Phil, much appreciated. Here is a picture of the prototype...

Regards,

Bruce

[Lecrenb]

Building the anchor winch is going to be very interesting, because there are no plans or photos of it in existence! The attached portions of the 1928 designer's plan give a side view and a plan view of what was envisaged: a winch having a chain gypsy on the starboard anchor, a cable spool on the port anchor, and a mechanical gearing that drove the winch from a power take-off on the main engine, via the cargo winch at the foot of the main mast.

After the maiden voyage Captain Larsen complained that the winch was under powered, and it was replaced in 1930. It was replaced again in 1944 by the one on the ship today.

 

Here is the plan view, it shows the driving gears off the winch base on a separate support... but was the same arrangement kept in 1930? Who knows!?

Here is the side view, showing a drive chain or belt to operate the anchor winch from the cargo winch, and a pulley set slung from the cargo derrick to guide the drive.

I decided to follow the plan view more or less as presented, because the 1930 winch was still mechanically driven, and to keep the drive clear of the cargo hatch it would have to be extended to port with a separate support as shown on the plan.

I did try and search out period plans or photos of other mechanical winches, without much success... if anyone has information or suggestions it would be great to hear from you!

 

[Lecrenb]

I am using stud link chain by Krick for the anchor... expensive but the look of the stud links goes, in my opinion, a long way to completing the finish in this scale. Starting with the chain, the first thing to make is the gypsy...

I used three sizes of nested styrene tube, cutting away whatever did not look like a gypsy until I was satisfied...

From the final size of the gypsy I scaled three winch supporting frames onto a piece of scrap styrene...

And test fit to the ship. I am checking here for size... does it look right in the absence of plans or photos?

I will thin down the gypsy on one side, the wider side will become the brake band. The warping drums are by Billings Boats, they are correct for size so it was easier to buy the four I will need as opposed to turning them myself.

Here are the parts so far, test fitted onto the winch shaft...

You can see the brake band and crank, and the warping drum is finished with scale hardware from Grandt Line. The frame on the end has a flange for strength. Details like this are my conjecture, in the absence of plans or photos of St. Roch's winch...

Now I turned my attention to making the remaining end frame and the cable spool. I had to be careful here to ensure the winch was not going to outgrow the base, which is already mounted on the deck!

The cable spool gets its' own brake band. It is time to go to my stash of old RC servo gears and find some that would look proper to make the drive assembly...

This last picture shows everything so far, test fitted together on the ship, with the drive gear on the end of the shaft.

There are some adjustments needed to fit the base, then it will be time for paint and assembly. I am thinking of black overall, with gun metal on the rotating parts for contrast, and maybe a rust wash on the cable and chain, again for contrast rather that weathering purposes.

I still have to make the final gear drive and pulley assembly, and am trying to think good thoughts about how to include a dog clutch, or whether it would be better to leave it off??

Thoughts, comments, and critiques are always appreciated, especially as I am making a lot of it up as I go along!

Regards,

Bruce

 

 

[kurtvd19]

Bruce:

I think you are on the right track and your thoughts on colors are good.  

Kurt

[Lecrenb]

4 hours ago, kurtvd19 said:

Bruce:

I think you are on the right track and your thoughts on colors are good.  

Kurt

Thanks Kurt, I appreciate the feedback! Still musing about the dog clutch...

Regards,

Bruce

[Dr PR]

A good source of plans for winches is the US Patent Office. When I was making my CLG-5 CAD model I started searching through patents and found an amazing number of patents for things on the ship, including a couple of the winches. The patents have drawings that helped me figure out how to model the parts.

 

If you know the manufacturer you can limit the search. Of course if you know the patent number - often molded into cast parts or on an attached label - you are home free.

 

There are patents and drawings for things you would never expect. I found the patents for the Talos guided missile (101 pages) and missile launcher! The Tarter and Terrier missiles and launchers are also there. I would have thought these would be classified!

[Lecrenb]

9 hours ago, Dr PR said:

A good source of plans for winches is the US Patent Office. When I was making my CLG-5 CAD model I started searching through patents and found an amazing number of patents for things on the ship, including a couple of the winches. The patents have drawings that helped me figure out how to model the parts.

 

If you know the manufacturer you can limit the search. Of course if you know the patent number - often molded into cast parts or on an attached label - you are home free.

 

There are patents and drawings for things you would never expect. I found the patents for the Talos guided missile (101 pages) and missile launcher! The Tarter and Terrier missiles and launchers are also there. I would have thought these would be classified!

Thanks Phil, that's a resource I had not considered! The winches were made by Pumps and Power of Vancouver, I'll try a search and see what comes up!

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Dr PR]

Bruce,

 

Good luck. I just did a patent search for the winches on the MSI with no luck. The new "advanced" search page is totally screwed up, with a bunch of overlapping windows that hide the search text entry box. Ad the simple search page won't let you look for things with more than one word in the name - like company names!

 

Patent searches have always been a tedious process because you really don't know what the title may be. But if you find anything be sure to look at the previous patents listed in the newer patent application. This can lead you to other related patents.

[Lecrenb]

OK, I need a nickel's worth of free advice from the forum folks...

 

The weight of St. Roch's anchors should not be borne by the anchor winch when not in use. For the starboard chain, I have no problem making a pelican hook to fit on the chain, but what about the port anchor cable?

I have no idea what a cable gripper would look like a hundred years ago, and there is no bitt on which to belay the cable.

Does anyone have any drawings, pictures or references to how I might include a period correct cable gripper?

Thanks in advance, 

Bruce

 

[AON]

Good morning Bruce

I am going to send you 3 PNG photos from A Ship Modelmaker's Manual by John Bowen that might have the answer.

The images are too large to post.

Cable Stoppers pg 41 fig 64, pg 141, fig 252 and pg 166 fig 311.

Alan

[Lecrenb]

On 6/26/2025 at 8:59 AM, AON said:

Good morning Bruce

I am going to send you 3 PNG photos from A Ship Modelmaker's Manual by John Bowen that might have the answer.

The images are too large to post.

Cable Stoppers pg 41 fig 64, pg 141, fig 252 and pg 166 fig 311.

Alan

Thanks a bunch Alan! There is enough information there to let me fabricate a replication of a cable gripper...

Regars,

Bruce

[Lecrenb]

Nearly there... as per my earlier thoughts, I painted the rotating parts gun metal. The warping drums are flat aluminum. I wrapped the cable spool with suitably sized rigging thread from my stash to serve as the port anchor hawser, then I dry brushed Tamiya X-1 gloss black, followed by Vallejo rust, and lastly Tamiya XF-1 flat black. I think I achieved the look of wire rope??

The drive gear shaft extends out so the drive clears the hatch on the main deck... I have to make a supporting frame and pulley for that. My 1928 plans sketch shows the port warping drum also extending on the winch shaft... not sure if I will do that yet. It will depend on if there is room to wrap and unwrap lines once the drive pulley is on.

As always, thanks for checking in and feedback is appreciated!

Bruce

Edited June 27 by Lecrenb

[Lecrenb]

I lashed down the stream anchor and completed the anchor and winch installation... there are 86 individual parts making up the winch not including the anchor cable and chain!

From all the pictures I was able to find (thanks AON!) I figured that the winch was manufactured as a unit and the mechanical drive added later to suit the ship. Other than the drive coming from the cargo winch on the main deck there is no other information extant. It could have been a chain, or a belt. The overall looped length would be 80 feet (25m). Similar belts were used at that time to drive agricultural machinery from traction engines, so I think this is a real possibility.

Also, I do have two pictures showing the port side of the cargo winch... there is a warping drum, but no gear or pulley, therefore I made my anchor winch drive pulley to be able to take a belt. 

My decision to own and defend!

The anchors are not glued to the hull, but hang on their chain or cable. I made the pelican hook and cable gripper by modifying miniature turnbuckles and adding eye bolt and wing nut details.

This completes the work on the fo'c's'le deck, now on to the main deck, where I will be making the open hatch cover, cargo winch, and possibly the spare rudder stowage!

 

[wefalck]

I think that it would have been a chain-drive. Leather belts would break, if humid and frozen. I have never seen belt-drives on ships, but chain-drives seem to have been fairly common at a time before electrical direct drives became the norm.

 

[Lecrenb]

5 hours ago, wefalck said:

I think that it would have been a chain-drive. Leather belts would break, if humid and frozen. I have never seen belt-drives on ships, but chain-drives seem to have been fairly common at a time before electrical direct drives became the norm.

 

Bonjour wefalck!

Fair comments, and valid, thanks for your input. It could very well have been a chain, and that was my first thought until I looked at the cargo winch pictures... and while they are not very good I could see no means of connecting a chain to that winch (which drives the anchor winch). I would be very interested in seeing pictures of chain drives... St. Roch would not have been the only ship with mechanical drive!

Regards,

Bruce

[wefalck]

Look for a building log on the Norwegian GJØA, I seem to remember that she used a chain drive from a petrol engine to the spill/winch.

[AON]

Bruce

Ray (MSON) had built the GJØA.

You can email and ask him.

I would have thought it was gear driven... but that is from someone that has absolutely no idea! 😉

Alan

[Lecrenb]

Thanks for everyone's help with my anchor winch drive.

Today I wrote to the Fram Museum in Oslo, custodians of Maud from whom St. Roch's lines and Arctic construction features were taken by naval architect Thomas Halliday in 1927.

The museum also has the exploration ships Gjoa and Fram, either under restoration or on display. Since they have the machinery from these ships I hope they can be my arbiters on St. Roch's winches.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[AON]

Going to the source... what a novel idea.

😉

[wefalck]

I just checked the pictures of GJØA that I took, when I visited the museum in 2019. However, at that time non gypsie-chaindrive was rigged though some chain was wrapped around the deck-winch. 

 

BTW, I may pop over to Versailles, but as I am between travels, I am not sure I will really manage.

 

Edited yesterday at 06:28 AM by wefalck

[Lecrenb]

7 hours ago, wefalck said:

I just checked the pictures of GJØA that I took, when I visited the museum in 2019. However, at that time non gypsie-chaindrive was rigged though some chain was wrapped around the deck-winch. 

 

BTW, I may pop over to Versailles, but as I am between travels, I am not sure I will really manage.

 

Thanks very much Wefalck for checking! I saw a model of Gjoa that has rollers on the side of the deckhouse, but I am not attributing too much to their accuracy. They would likely have been used to carry the chain or belt between the winches.

We would have some time on the afternoon or evening of August 16, other than that Viking has filled our itinerary. If not this time, then next!

Regards,

Bruce

 

[wefalck]

Sorry, the Versailles reference went into the wrong forum and thread - to many things going on at the moment.

 

In the building thread mentioned above there should be historical photograph or two that shows the drive arrangement on GJØA.

 

[Harvey Golden]

The chain drive on Gjøa thread is here, mostly on page 2: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/34394-gjøa-1872-by-harvey-golden-roald-amundsens-cutter-built-at-rosedahl-norway/page/2/#comments (thanks to all that helped with that puzzle). 

 

[Lecrenb]

4 hours ago, Harvey Golden said:

The chain drive on Gjøa thread is here, mostly on page 2: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/34394-gjøa-1872-by-harvey-golden-roald-amundsens-cutter-built-at-rosedahl-norway/page/2/#comments (thanks to all that helped with that puzzle). 

 

Thanks very much Harvey... I am still waiting to hear from the Fram museum, but your Gjoa thread is giving me a lot of missing details. You've also built a very nice looking model!

Regards,

Bruce