On using different fabrics for netting, sails, and hammocks- a question of scale and realism

[Valkyrja68]

So I'm looking at the use of different fabrics for use as netting, sails and hammocks that are what I think may look decent, please take a look at my build log and weigh in. I have tuille, lace, slip, linen, and more- detailed with size references. 

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Valkyrja68
Seemed like the link wasn't showing

[Gregory]

For sail cloth, I have used fine, high thread count shirts or dresses I have found at the thrift store.

 

I also like tulle for getting  an interesting effect for windows when the subject calls for it.

 

[wefalck]

At 1:96 scale I would rather not use any cloth for sails, it is far too coarse, even the finest ones you can find. Have look around the forum there are several threads on using silk paper or 'silkspan'. Dito for rolled hammocks.

 

For netting at this it is not so easy, as most commercial netting or screen is likely to have too fine mesh and/or too thick threads. Printing silk-screen could be an option or recycled silk teabags. There is also wire- or sieve-mesh, but it may have the same problem. Drawing every second thread in both direction could be an option.

[allanyed]

Eberhard is spot on about using silk span.  There is no cloth and absolutely no sewing machine that will yield stitching that is to scale at 1:96 or even as large as 1:48.   There are a lot of beautiful models in the build logs that are ruined when cloth sails are rigged.   

Allan

[Bob Cleek]

3 hours ago, allanyed said:

There are a lot of beautiful models in the build logs that are ruined when cloth sails are rigged. 

I've got one of those, a pilot schooner, from over forty years ago. I keep it around as a personal memento of that time in my life. Every so often, I think about re-doing the offending sails, but the urge soon passes.  

[Valkyrja68]

6 hours ago, wefalck said:

At 1:96 scale I would rather not use any cloth for sails, it is far too coarse, even the finest ones you can find. Have look around the forum there are several threads on using silk paper or 'silkspan'. Dito for rolled hammocks.

 

For netting at this it is not so easy, as most commercial netting or screen is likely to have too fine mesh and/or too thick threads. Printing silk-screen could be an option or recycled silk teabags. There is also wire- or sieve-mesh, but it may have the same problem. Drawing every second thread in both direction could be an option.

@wefalck Thank you for your suggestions! I think the mesh I posted is adequate scale for the model from my research and math calculations. I agree for the most part on sails but I don't like the look of paper, and especially it's general lack of archival properties. But correct me if I'm wrong, isn't silkspan just an alternative to actual silk? 
I have found some potential alternatives that I have on hand. One is a Japanese pressed tissue (for use under fried tempura food) it is made to absorb oil without turning to nasty pulp and has the same properties as I've read silkspan has (cross weave?) Fiber construction that resists tearing; thin almost* tissue paper like cream colored appearance; absorption properties that will take glue and paint and water. 
I have silk georgette fabric that I think may be the right choice (for fabric) similar to chiffon but less transparent, it has a very fine almost invisible weave, but I don't know if I have enough. Lastly I have a fine batiste fabric that has a crinkly temperament that I think would go well, it may be a tad thicker than ideal but still workable. I was going to do a little show and tell but I got caught up in my running rigging...such an ordeal I swear!! More to follow.

[Valkyrja68]

4 hours ago, allanyed said:

Eberhard is spot on about using silk span.  There is no cloth and absolutely no sewing machine that will yield stitching that is to scale at 1:96 or even as large as 1:48.   There are a lot of beautiful models in the build logs that are ruined when cloth sails are rigged.   

Allan

I am not going to claim superiority over those veterans of model ship building..but...I was a seamstress and there are a LOT of fabrics that have come a long way-especially synthetic options. And there are also special invisible stitches one could use short of just gluing them (which is the tack I was leaning toward).  I'm determined to catalogue them for posterity and options for those who are interested. I'm not at all saying that you are wrong in the use or look of silkspan, I'm just saying that it is a statistical impossibility that silkspan is the ONLY material of its ilk that would look scale appropriate.

[wefalck]

It would be good to have a catalogue of fabric names (in different languages) and either their (commercial) use or (generic, not store names) potential sources. There may be many different types of potentially suitable fabrics, but they may be difficult to get (in small quantities) for the average person, unless one has connections to professional users.

 

There are two factors that will be of particular importance, the thread count or density of weave and the thickness of the fabric. I am well aware that 'thickness' means little for the professionals dealing with fabrics, as it cannot really be determined due to the compressibility of the material (thread and weave). However, one can measure say sail-cloth of different weight as it comes of the bale and then divide it by the scale factor of your respective model. This gives you an indication for what you have to look for in terms of fabric 'thickness'. If, for example, a sail-cloth had a thickness of 2 mm, you would need to have a thickness of about 0.02 mm (or 0.0008") in your case.

 

There are lots of fabrics that are very thin, but have a loose weave or vice versa. What we need would be a fabric of very high thread count while being very thin - sounds expensive ...

 

Another factor to consider is the stiffness of the material. Real silk threads can be made extremely thin and very flexible, but silk is problematic material from the conservation point of view. Man-made fibres still tend to thicker and generally much stiffer. The stiffness is not very important, when you are aiming for sails bellowing in the wind, but on a real ship only certain sails would be set under given conditions, while others would be brailed up or stored. So the material will have to look convincing in this state.

 

There are lots of different materials that run under the denomination of 'silk-span' (isn't it even a brand-name originally?). As such the material tends to have a too loose weave, which is why me and others have impregnated it with varnish or paint. The objective is to have a material that is reasonably tear-resistant and shows just a hint of texture. Such tissue cannot be sewn, because it is too loose and there are no needles fine enough anyway. Seams, doublings etc. need to be applied using glue or varnish.

 

An alternative to silk-span may be screen-printing fabrics, but I have no practical experience with them. They are available in a wide variety of thread-counts, but also have a loose weave because it is the 'holes' that are important for the original application. I have the suspicion that silk-span is a secondary application of these fabrics.

 

A colleagues of mine some time ago came up with a technique by which a very fine and long-fibred Japanese tissue paper is sandwiched between two layers of paper restoration tissue. The latter is impregnated with a heat-setting acrylic resin. When ironed-on it is almost invisible on the 'repaired' paper. Using this technique, one can produce quite realistic seams and doublings, while retaining the translucent quality of the 'sail', which was his objective. I have acquired the materials, but have not tried this out for myself yet.  

 

 

 

 

[allanyed]

10 hours ago, Valkyrja68 said:

And there are also special invisible stitches one could use short of just gluing them (which is the tack I was leaning toward).  I'm determined to catalogue them for posterity and options for those who are interested. I'm not at all saying that you are wrong in the use or look of silkspan, I'm just saying that it is a statistical impossibility that silkspan is the ONLY material of its ilk that would look scale appropriate.

Many of us would LOVE to learn more about materials and "stitching" techniques that you have experienced!   I would much rather go with cloth than silk span, but even at the relatively large scale of 1:48 the TC of the cloth would have to be at least 2400 to match rough canvas, and stiches would have to be spaced at about 0.003 to look realistic.   At smaller scales it obviously gets more problematic with cloth.

 

Allan

[Valkyrja68]

23 hours ago, wefalck said:

It would be good to have a catalogue of fabric names (in different languages) and either their (commercial) use or (generic, not store names) potential sources. There may be many different types of potentially suitable fabrics, but they may be difficult to get (in small quantities) for the average person, unless one has connections to professional users.

 

There are two factors that will be of particular importance, the thread count or density of weave and the thickness of the fabric. I am well aware that 'thickness' means little for the professionals dealing with fabrics, as it cannot really be determined due to the compressibility of the material (thread and weave). However, one can measure say sail-cloth of different weight as it comes of the bale and then divide it by the scale factor of your respective model. This gives you an indication for what you have to look for in terms of fabric 'thickness'. If, for example, a sail-cloth had a thickness of 2 mm, you would need to have a thickness of about 0.02 mm (or 0.0008") in your case.

 

There are lots of fabrics that are very thin, but have a loose weave or vice versa. What we need would be a fabric of very high thread count while being very thin - sounds expensive ...

 

Another factor to consider is the stiffness of the material. Real silk threads can be made extremely thin and very flexible, but silk is problematic material from the conservation point of view. Man-made fibres still tend to thicker and generally much stiffer. The stiffness is not very important, when you are aiming for sails bellowing in the wind, but on a real ship only certain sails would be set under given conditions, while others would be brailed up or stored. So the material will have to look convincing in this state.

 

There are lots of different materials that run under the denomination of 'silk-span' (isn't it even a brand-name originally?). As such the material tends to have a too loose weave, which is why me and others have impregnated it with varnish or paint. The objective is to have a material that is reasonably tear-resistant and shows just a hint of texture. Such tissue cannot be sewn, because it is too loose and there are no needles fine enough anyway. Seams, doublings etc. need to be applied using glue or varnish.

 

An alternative to silk-span may be screen-printing fabrics, but I have no practical experience with them. They are available in a wide variety of thread-counts, but also have a loose weave because it is the 'holes' that are important for the original application. I have the suspicion that silk-span is a secondary application of these fabrics.

 

A colleagues of mine some time ago came up with a technique by which a very fine and long-fibred Japanese tissue paper is sandwiched between two layers of paper restoration tissue. The latter is impregnated with a heat-setting acrylic resin. When ironed-on it is almost invisible on the 'repaired' paper. Using this technique, one can produce quite realistic seams and doublings, while retaining the translucent quality of the 'sail', which was his objective. I have acquired the materials, but have not tried this out for myself yet.  

 

 

 

 

I have started documentation and included my notes, you can see it here . The idea was to include non-traditional fabric options that may or may not work depending on build. I am proficient at sewing and used to work for a sailmaker and marine canvas shop, but that isn't helping me here lol. We shall see. My current build is kind of the test platform for my next build which I hope I will have the experience to accomplish on a higher level.

[wefalck]

I would suggest you mirror your trials here for easier reference, since you already opened this thread.

 

The choice of material and its treatment will also depend on the effect you are trying to achieve. A key question will be whether you care about translucency (as seen when observing the sail against strong sunlight) or not. in the latter case, the density of weave will be less of concern, as you can paint the sail to clog the weave.

 

I have done this in the past, here on a 1:60 scale model, where the sails are made up of individual strips of imprenated silk-span:

 

 

Below is an example in 1:87 scale of 'tanned' sails made from strips of silk-paper impregnated with varnish and then painted with acrylics. The 'tanning' process renders the sails opaque due to concoction of tallow, oils and ochre. They are also a lot stiffer than untreated sails.

 

 

[Valkyrja68]

@wefalck That's a good process you have there. I do listen to advice and I know that silkspan is the preferred choice by experienced modelers, but I cannot EVER seem to let things be simple. I feel like I need to experiment for the tactile and visual experience of it, and I suppose to know what materials I like best for future builds. I will post the results here as you suggested once I've finished my fabric choices. I feel as if I may already have a winner in mind, using your technique. Thank you.

[Valkyrja68]

@wefalck One more thing and this is the primary reason I'm adverse to paper- Although it meets the scale requirements how do you feel about the archival quality of using Silkspan/Esaki? Being in art conservation I have a deep aversion to paper as the methods to preserve it are extensive, expensive, and generally inadequate. Once paper has started to degrade there is almost nothing that can be done. But that is not my specialty and I have no first hand experiences.

[wefalck]

I know, this is a concern, but it also depends on the paper you are using, i.e. what are it's raw material and how was it processed. Certain fabrics, particularly man-made ones, may have similar concerns.

 

I would say it also depends on the type of model. Any model in which thermoplastics (e.g. styrene) were used may be more of concern than papers that claim to be acid-free. 

 

To be honest, I used to quite pre-occupied with longevity as well, but I realised than that I would have to make too many compromises with respect to visual appearance, which is the main objective of the model. Certain long-term stable materials are also very difficult to work with in very small dimensions, which imposes further limitations.