Schrouds Deadeye’s etc mystery

[Elmina]

Hello I’m hopping to gain some knowledge with the few photos I have attached. Here . As some of you know I am attempting to rig this massive schooner . With bow sprit and mainsail boom included the boat is over 8’ in length.  I believe it was built around the turn of the century . The masts , booms , rigging etc were either in several pieces or missing. I have the masts standing and I’m trying to layout a rigging plan. My question today is 

can anyone supply a diagram or illustration or even an explanation of how the completed Schrouds would have looked from just the photos I have supplied? The photo on the tile floor is my interpretation of how the pieces were assembled. 
I have 6 Deadeye’s for of the four locations. Thanks for looking 

[druxey]

You have the right idea. The lower deadeyes still have their laniards in place in your last photo. The upper deadeyes were attached as you see them, with a metal sheerpole lashed just above to keep the upper deadeyes from twisting around. The longer stropped lower deadeye must be for something else; perhaps a topmast stay? The shroud pair was looped over the mast head and this appears to have the lashing below the loop still in place. There are remains of the ratlines still there, so that will act as a pattern for spacing  the replacements.

 

I imagine the rigging is now brittle so should all be replaced. An interesting project!

[Dr PR]

As Druxey said, the deadeyes with the sheer pole were for shrouds that lead up to the lower mast tops. One line ran up from one deadeye set, looped around the mast, and then back down to the other deadeye set.  The shrouds were lashed together with small line at the mast top. I think you said you had Petersson's "Rigging Period Fore-and -Aft Craft." Look on page 78 to see how the shrouds looped around the mast top and were lashed together. Pages 76 and 77 show the way to rig the deadeyes. It was traditional to rig the starboard side shrouds first and the then port side shrouds (if there were more than two per side they altered stbd, port, stbd, port, etc. starting with the forward shrouds and working back).

 

On pure fore-and-aft schooner rigs it was common to have only two shrouds per side. Some smaller vessels didn't have ratlines, but it appears your ship did.

 

Page 83 of Petersson's book shows how some backstays were also rigged with deadeyes.

[allanyed]

Elmina

On what schooner and year is the model based?  Also do you know the provenance of the model?  She looks to be quite nicely detailed!

Thanks

Allan

[Elmina]

9 hours ago, druxey said:

You have the right idea. The lower deadeyes still have their laniards in place in your last photo. The upper deadeyes were attached as you see them, with a metal sheerpole lashed just above to keep the upper deadeyes from twisting around. The longer stropped lower deadeye must be for something else; perhaps a topmast stay? The shroud pair was looped over the mast head and this appears to have the lashing below the loop still in place. There are remains of the ratlines still there, so that will act as a pattern for spacing  the replacements.

 

I imagine the rigging is now brittle so should all be replaced. An interesting project!

Thank you very much . I really appreciate the information. 
being brand new to this , i am trying to come up with a layout and plan before I can actually run the first line . I initially thought I could get started rigging but the reality is I have several damaged pieces , masts , booms , spreaders etc that need repairing or replacing . As I work on those items I will continue to ask questions and learn the terminology etc  . Thanks again for your input   Mike 

[druxey]

Hopefully we can answer your questions, Mike.

[Elmina]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

Elmina

On what schooner and year is the model based?  Also do you know the provenance of the model?  She looks to be quite nicely detailed!

Thanks

Allan

Hi Allan, 

unfortunately I should have attached this thread or posting to my originals . I’m new to the site .

my original posting is titled rigging a vintage schooner . 

 

I do not know the providence . 

I have had my eye on the model for over a year and finally agreed on a price . It was at a nautical antique and salvage company here in Florida . Just the size , shape , lines etc make it a piece of art to me . I wasn’t alone it seems most people that entered the store would spend some time looking at the model . It just jumped out over all the other , figureheads , ships wheels and other models etc . So even in its heavily damaged condition , I decided to take it home . 

The name on the back is 

Elmina (shooters island NY . 
thanks to some knowledgeable members on this site it was  soon realized my model was not a replica of the 1901 racing schooner Elmina but a schooner yacht of the same era . It appears to have been a working pond yacht.   Thanks for looking 

 

 

[Elmina]

8 hours ago, Dr PR said:

As Druxey said, the deadeyes with the sheer pole were for shrouds that lead up to the lower mast tops. One line ran up from one deadeye set, looped around the mast, and then back down to the other deadeye set.  The shrouds were lashed together with small line at the mast top. I think you said you had Petersson's "Rigging Period Fore-and -Aft Craft." Look on page 78 to see how the shrouds looped around the mast top and were lashed together. Pages 76 and 77 show the way to rig the deadeyes. It was traditional to rig the starboard side shrouds first and the then port side shrouds (if there were more than two per side they altered stbd, port, stbd, port, etc. starting with the forward shrouds and working back).

 

On pure fore-and-aft schooner rigs it was common to have only two shrouds per side. Some smaller vessels didn't have ratlines, but it appears your ship did.

 

Page 83 of Petersson's book shows how some backstays were also rigged with deadeyes.

Thank you Phil  , yes I did get a copy of rigging period fore and aft . Im starting to realize I need a much better education before I run my first line , but with this site and members like yourself I think I can pull it off . So I’m going to continue to ask the questions and put a plan together as I work on the booms, spreaders masts etc. thank you 

[amateur]

I'm not an expert on pond-yachts, but I'm pretty sure that a pond yacht is not rigged as per Petersson's diagrams.

Pond yachts should be able to sail themselves, so they have a simplified rigging. I think that you need to have a serious look at the 1950's and earlier literature on rigging and sailing pond yachts. (as a pond yacht rigged like a  model schooner will look a bit "unbalanced".

 

Jan

[Elmina]

Hello , if I understand correctly the shrouds would run from the sheer pole up to lower mast and back to opposite side of the sheer pole , with rat lines between 

  My Schrouds remnants in my last photo , have the lower connecting points staggered , one higher than the other . So one end would not have landed on the sheer pole ?? 

[Elmina]

50 minutes ago, amateur said:

I'm not an expert on pond-yachts, but I'm pretty sure that a pond yacht is not rigged as per Petersson's diagrams.

Pond yachts should be able to sail themselves, so they have a simplified rigging. I think that you need to have a serious look at the 1950's and earlier literature on rigging and sailing pond yachts. (as a pond yacht rigged like a  model schooner will look a bit "unbalanced".

 

Jan

Ahhh thank you I will do that. 
simplified sounds so much better to me and you are the second to suggest that

[Elmina]

My assumption is it was a pond yacht because of the lead keel , as far as rigging, I would like to get it back as close to original as possible . With the remnants I have I’m hoping much of that is possible. If I can do the standing rigging, bow sprit , Schrouds etc 

and then the minimal running rigging . That would be perfect 

I have no intention of adding sails , I just hope to be able to display in that condition . Similar to a racing schooner I would like rigging for just 5 sails . Flying jib ,jib, fore stay sail,  fore sail and main sail 

[amateur]

But that is my point: when you say ‘original’, some of us read ‘the situation as s functioning pond yacht’’, some us read ‘as a schooner of around 1900 would have been rigged’.

These two are fundamentally different, and lead to different reading suggestions, and different choices.

And given the rudder pin, and the lead keel this model has been a pond yacht at least once in its existence

 

Personally I would go for a pond-yacht rigging (although seeing the set-up for the sailboom, that doesnt look to have been self-tending, so there is some ambiguity in the rigging remnants)

 

Jan

Edited May 3, 2022 by amateur

[Elmina]

18 minutes ago, amateur said:

But that is my point: when you say ‘original’, some of us read ‘the situation as s functioning pond yacht’’, some us read ‘as a schooner of around 1900 would have been rigged’.

These two are fundamentally different, and lead to different reading suggestions, and different choices.

And given the rudder pin, and the lead keel this model has been a pond yacht at least once in its existence

 

Personally I would go for a pond-yacht rigging (although seeing the set-up for the sailboom, that doesnt look to have been self-tending, so there is some ambiguity in the rigging remnants)

 

Jan

I see, I wish I could say which of the 2 it is. I’m sure you are correct that it was a pond yacht. in an earlier post I was told that depending on what I wanted to do . Rig it as a display model of a schooner with all the information available or return it to the original pond yacht configuration which would be much more difficult , he suggested starting with a diagram of all the connection points  etc. he had mentioned something about it not being self tending as well , I guess the reality is givin my knowledge and ability, and the fact that I only want to display it , I should probably stay the course of minimum racing schooner rigging . 

[Keith Black]

 Allan, see the attached. 

 

 

[Elmina]

13 hours ago, Elmina said:

Thank you Phil  , yes I did get a copy of rigging period fore and aft . Im starting to realize I need a much better education before I run my first line , but with this site and members like yourself I think I can pull it off . So I’m going to continue to ask the questions and put a plan together as I work on the booms, spreaders masts etc. thank you 

Hi Phil

if I understand correctly the shrouds would run from the sheer pole up to lower mast and back to opposite side of the sheer pole , with rat lines between 

  My Schrouds remnants with rat lines in my last photo , have the lower connecting points staggered , one higher than the other . So one end would not have landed on the sheer pole ?? 

[Elmina]

Another thing that has come to me. The way the mast is set up with the spreaders ( see attached photo) There is no way for the shrouds to loop over the mast. The only possibility I see is that the Schrouds and stays were all fastened to eyes . Maybe this is an indication of pond yacht rigging as opposed to schooner model rigging ????

[Dr PR]

It is definitely a pond yacht! Real schooners did not have the mast doubling (where the lower and upper masts overlap) anything like what you have on the model.

 

On real ships the shrouds would loop around the mast head, with both legs of the loop coming down on the same side of the ship.

 

On the model I suppose the shrouds may have been fastened to the eye bolt loops below the spreaders.

 

I wonder if there is an Internet forum for pond yachts? If you can find someone that sells modern pond yachts they might know if there is a Forum.

[Elmina]

On 5/3/2022 at 12:02 AM, Dr PR said:

As Druxey said, the deadeyes with the sheer pole were for shrouds that lead up to the lower mast tops. One line ran up from one deadeye set, looped around the mast, and then back down to the other deadeye set.  The shrouds were lashed together with small line at the mast top. I think you said you had Petersson's "Rigging Period Fore-and -Aft Craft." Look on page 78 to see how the shrouds looped around the mast top and were lashed together. Pages 76 and 77 show the way to rig the deadeyes. It was traditional to rig the starboard side shrouds first and the then port side shrouds (if there were more than two per side they altered stbd, port, stbd, port, etc. starting with the forward shrouds and working back).

 

On pure fore-and-aft schooner rigs it was common to have only two shrouds per side. Some smaller vessels didn't have ratlines, but it appears your ship did.

 

Page 83 of Petersson's book shows how some backstays were also rigged with deadeyes.

 

23 hours ago, Elmina said:

Thank you Phil  , yes I did get a copy of rigging period fore and aft . Im starting to realize I need a much better education before I run my first line , but with this site and members like yourself I think I can pull it off . So I’m going to continue to ask the questions and put a plan together as I work on the booms, spreaders masts etc. thank you 

 

[Elmina]

23 hours ago, druxey said:

Hopefully we can answer your questions, Mike.

[Elmina]

Hello it looks like I am switching my rigging plan from model schooner to pond yacht. 
It appears the model was not a gigged schooner but a pond yacht. The latest realization that the Schrouds were not looped over the mast but fastened to eyes sort of confirmed that . 
so my new library of schooner rigging books may not be what I need. 
however I would think the Schrouds weather looped over the mast or fastened to eyes / pond yacht or model schooner should look the same 

that’s where I am confused 

if I understand correctly , from the Deadeyes fastened to the sheer pole , shrouds lead up to the mast and back down to the opposite side of the sheer pole with rat lines between .

Wether they are looped over the mast or fastened to eyes at the top  they should have been about the same length . The problem is my Schrouds remnants with rat line are staggered with one longer than the other as seen in the photo. Any ideas why that is ?? 
thanks in advance 

[Elmina]

13 hours ago, Elmina said:

On 5/3/2022 at 8:01 AM, druxey said:

Hopefully we can answer your questions, Mike.

Thank you 

this one is really puzzling me 

13 hours ago, Elmina said:

On 5/3/2022 at 8:01 AM, druxey said:

Hopefully we can answer your questions, Mike.

Thank  you. What is really puzzling me is the shroud remnants I have . One side is longer than the other. See photo 

if the Schroud goes up from the sheer pole to the mast both legs would be equal lengths. , any thoughts ? Or something in missing in the big picture ?? Thanks 

[druxey]

Is the difference in leg length related to the deadeye on the long strop (your original post, photos 2 and 3)?

[amateur]

Although pic 1 in post #1 suggests a normal (ie equal lengt) shrouds.

 

The photo isn't quite sharp, but it looks as if the seizings are in place, and the shroulds just snapped above the dead eyes.

In that case, the length of the shroulds should pretty much show you where the upper dead eyes would have been. Does that help in any way?

 

Jan 

[Elmina]

4 hours ago, amateur said:

Although pic 1 in post #1 suggests a normal (ie equal lengt) shrouds.

 

The photo isn't quite sharp, but it looks as if the seizings are in place, and the shroulds just snapped above the dead eyes.

In that case, the length of the shroulds should pretty much show you where the upper dead eyes would have been. Does that help in any way?

 

Jan 

Thank you Jan , 

I am kicking myself.there was such a rats nest of lines when I got the model I didn’t know where to start so I removed most of it. The only photo I took prior does not give me close up views. 
anyway if you look at this photo it suggests the shrouds should be roughly even lengths , however the remnants I have one side is quite a bit shorter when stretched out. Could it be there was an additional dead eye above the chain bar on one side ?  I have also attached the original grainy photo of the model before I removed it. 
I may never know how it was original but i would really like to figure it out.   Thanks again for your help.  Mike 

[Elmina]

Just now, Elmina said:

Thank you Jan , 

I am kicking myself.there was such a rats nest of lines when I got the model I didn’t know where to start so I removed most of it. The only photo I took prior does not give me close up views. 
anyway if you look at this photo it suggests the shrouds should be roughly even lengths , however the remnants I have one side is quite a bit shorter when stretched out. Could it be there was an additional dead eye above the chain bar on one side ?  I have also attached the original grainy photo of the model before I removed it. 
I may never know how it was original but i would really like to figure it out.   Thanks again for your help.  Mike 

[Dr PR]

Mike,

 

The shrouds will not be the same length exactly. The forward shroud is close outboard of the mast and the aft shroud is farther back. Since the mast has some rake (leans aft) the distance from the deadeyes to the mast top will be a bit different.

[Elmina]

5 hours ago, Dr PR said:

Mike,

 

The shrouds will not be the same length exactly. The forward shroud is close outboard of the mast and the aft shroud is farther back. Since the mast has some rake (leans aft) the distance from the deadeyes to the mast top will be a bit different.

Thank you Phil 

like other mystery’s with this model the Schroud ends are considerably dirffrent lengths

i have laid it out and one fall short by inches. I’m kicking myself for not taking more time detangeling and documenting the original mess before I removed anything

I have not seen anything in all the photos and books that would explain it. I think I am going to rig the Schrouds coming back to the chain bar and use the 3rd odd length set of deadeyes to head up to the spreaders and top mast 

Unless someone can solve the uneven schroud mystery. 
thank you Phil

 

[Keith Black]

 Mike, the two shroud lines converge at a single point on the mast. The most forward shroud line is parallel with the mast, it will be shorter than the shroud line aft of the mast. You can test this by taking two pieces of string running one piece from the most forward deadeye parallel to the mast and the other piece of string from the aft most deadeye to the mast. When removed you'll see that the lengths differ. 

[amateur]

Hi Keith,

 

true, but they won't differ inches in length....

 

Jan