HM Cutter Lady Nelson by MangoFox - Amati/Victory Models - 1:64 - first build

[MangoFox]

Hi all, 

 

This is my first build and wanted a touch of help, to document my progress and keep a record of my issues so I can avoid them in future builds.

 

I'm coming up on the tail end of the faring process and just trying to get these deadwood areas fared down to the right angle/dimensions. Below, Fig. A is what I assume is the correct faring angle judging by the documents/videos I've read and watched, which say to bring the deadwood down to "about half width". 

 

Fig. B and Fig. D is roughly what my model currently looks like (slightly exaggerated in drawings). Notice in Fig. D where I drew that arrow, a slip of the tool while faring the port side termination pattern caused me to create a bit of a depression into the keel.   

 

In Fig. C I assume the correct tapering angle between the 3mm section and the (eventual) 1.5mm section would ideally be the same as the straight lines I drew in Fig A, just along the sides of the keel. As you can see in Fig D. I've already taken off material that will complicate that a bit. 

 

So questions currently;

 

1) How do people go about making sure they fare down these deadwood sections evenly on each side.

 

2) When you already have some wonky angles like I do, how do you continue to work the area to end up even (like I drew in Fig A.), in all the various directions. Without continuing to remove materials from the sections that are probably sitting pretty close to where they should be. (Currently the plan is just slow and careful sanding. I don't think I've taken them down so far that I would need to glue strips and sand down again).

 

The MSY tutorials say to focus on one side at a time (which is great for the bulkhead faring) but I found that to be somewhat misleading advice for the deadwood. If I was to do this again from the start I would make about 5 passes with the file, then swap to the other side for 5 passes then repeat, to keep things nice and even.  

 

 

 

 

Below photo of Fig B. 

 

Below photo of Fig. D (note the slight depression right at the end of the keel on the port side) 

 

 

MSY mentioned this area near the bow also had some deadwood that needed to be fared. I used the technique of an equal number of passes on each side to keep it symmetrical and found that to work pretty well.  Does this need to taper down to about half width as well?

 

I haven't done this before so I find myself wondering if I'm being a bit to pedantic or over thinking. 

 

I'm pretty confident I can work through all this without much help but any criticism/advice on the above would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Cheers,

Mango. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Paul Le Wol]

Hi Mango,welcome to the forum. If you introduce yourself in the New Members section you may be able to get some response from members that have built this model. Since this is a common procedure for most models I’m going to suggest that you could try drilling and pinning a strip of 1.5mm basswood down the center of the false keel leaving .75mm on each side. Then sand to the strip of wood. After you are finished you can remove the wood strip. Some directions will have you do this before installing the bulkheads but your still good 

[MangoFox]

Thank you for the welcome/reply Paul, I will find post in the new members sections soon. 

 

Great advice on creating a template and pinning to the false keel. In the future I'll make sure to try that from the beginning.  

 

I ended up making a template (but out of paper which was a bit 'meh', not sure why I didn't think to make it out of wood before reading your comment), then I went ahead with my "slow and careful" sanding strategy, along with making an even number of passes on each side. I'm overall pretty happy with the result, everything seems much more symmetrical now. I have a little bit left to do before cutting out the prow/keel/rudder post but before that gets glued, ill clip it all in place, pull out some planks and see how flush they're going to sit overall, as that might be the last opportunity for any easily accessible sanding in the area.  

 

Cheers, 

Mango.

[Peanut6]

Mango, I'm sure your research reading has told you that you should have 100% contact of plank to frame/bulkhead and keel members.  I would offer the suggestion of using a batten to help you fare the frames/bulkheads and keel members to achieve this.  Some use tape, or string, or an actual hull plank for this purpose.  My little Jolly Boat had some pretty intense curves at the stern and what worked best for me was a strip of rigid card stock, actually is was from the "cardboard" used to package a 30 pack of the "golden nectar" I enjoy.  This enables you to see the high/low spots that need to be addressed in order to give the surface contact needed at each station and make the smooth transition from bulwark to keel, bow to transom.  As you've read, many methods have been established for just about any process in this hobby.  The keys are fully understanding what the end result should be and why it needs to be that way, plus finding the method that works for you.  And it doesn't have to be a single method, it could be a melding of methods that becomes "Mango's way of doing things".  If using a template and counting strokes gets to achieve symmetry works, great.  If using a batten and using the calibrated eye to achieve symmetry works, great.  The quality of your faring of the frames/bulkheads and keel members directly determines the appearance and work required in planking the hull.  Take your time, exercise patience and quadruple check what you've done before starting the hull planking.  Oh, and remember that any "oops" or mistake can be fixed if you decide it is worth fixing.  Look forward to following your build if you don't mind.       

[Knocklouder]

Hi, is a Sparky an electian , lol 😆  anyway there is a few logs of your kind of ship here I would  look up   Dave_E , he did a Lady Nelson  it is really good and he will give you great advice if you want it . As far as a paint sprayer, that's a whole new trade to learn as well as ship building lol good luck stay till your done ask questions  and have FUN !!!!!!

[MangoFox]

22 hours ago, Peanut6 said:

Mango, I'm sure your research reading has told you that you should have 100% contact of plank to frame/bulkhead and keel members.  I would offer the suggestion of using a batten to help you fare the frames/bulkheads and keel members to achieve this.  Some use tape, or string, or an actual hull plank for this purpose.  My little Jolly Boat had some pretty intense curves at the stern and what worked best for me was a strip of rigid card stock, actually is was from the "cardboard" used to package a 30 pack of the "golden nectar" I enjoy.  This enables you to see the high/low spots that need to be addressed in order to give the surface contact needed at each station and make the smooth transition from bulwark to keel, bow to transom.  As you've read, many methods have been established for just about any process in this hobby.  The keys are fully understanding what the end result should be and why it needs to be that way, plus finding the method that works for you.  And it doesn't have to be a single method, it could be a melding of methods that becomes "Mango's way of doing things".  If using a template and counting strokes gets to achieve symmetry works, great.  If using a batten and using the calibrated eye to achieve symmetry works, great.  The quality of your faring of the frames/bulkheads and keel members directly determines the appearance and work required in planking the hull.  Take your time, exercise patience and quadruple check what you've done before starting the hull planking.  Oh, and remember that any "oops" or mistake can be fixed if you decide it is worth fixing.  Look forward to following your build if you don't mind.       

 

Cheers Kev,

 

Much appreciate the advice.

In regards to determining how my faring for the bulkheads is going, I'm relatively happy with the ribs, still  a bit concerned about the deadwood though. I saw the guy on the Modellers Shipyard video using a thin piece of brass, best thing I could find to mimic that was a steel zip tie. Its flat, pliable, roughly the dimension of a plank (4.6mm) and reusable.  Highly recommend. The challenge here (mainly due to lack of experience) has been making sure I'm laying the steel-tie bow to stern where a plank is actually going to sit(especially through the centre of the hull. It might sit flush but if I'm holding the tie to the bow a bit higher and the stern a bit lower then where a real plank will lay, I am probably going to end up out of whack when there are planks on it. 

 

Please do follow and don't be afraid to burst my bubble if you see a mistake or area I can improve. 

 

MangoFox. 

 

[MangoFox]

21 hours ago, Knocklouder said:

Hi, is a Sparky an electian , lol 😆  anyway there is a few logs of your kind of ship here I would  look up   Dave_E , he did a Lady Nelson  it is really good and he will give you great advice if you want it . As far as a paint sprayer, that's a whole new trade to learn as well as ship building lol good luck stay till your done ask questions  and have FUN !!!!!!

Hi Knocklouder, 

 

Sparky is indeed an electrician. I'm a shocking sparky though, don't know watt I'm doing, ha! 

I have checked out Dave_E's build log. Its a long one, so only half way through. Definitely a good log of the process with a great result for a first build. 

 

Cheers,

Mango. 

[MangoFox]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for the input. I've made a bit of progress and I feel like the deadwood section is a lot more symmetrical now. I clipped the prow, keel & rudder into place and noticed that if I put some 1mm next to it (in the deadwood area), it stands a bit proud of the keel until its at the very end of the false keel.

This has lead me to the conclusion that more material needs to go. I modified a sketch from earlier, excuse the freehand but in your experiences should I be working towards shaping the deadwood to match what I've sketched blue (which is what I'm now thinking is correct) , or is the taper supposed to be gradual like the graphite section in the picture below.

 

Apologies for the noob question, I'm just a bit hung up on this part. 

 

 

Cheers, 

Mango. 

[Peanut6]

Regarding your faring, I would suggest you look at other build logs of this ship to get a better idea how the planks will lay out.  My little Jolly Boat was pretty straight forward, not as many planks to cover the span plus I didn't need to use any steelers or drop planks.  That and I didn't plank it per the kit instructions.   I have zero experience with your build so I can't help you with your question shown in your sketch.  Again I suggest you study other build logs to see what they did and if you're still unsure post a question in the appropriate section.  Another thing, your sketches are good and help show your "options", though including photos might be the key to convey exactly what you're talking about.  It would ensure there is no confusion in the written description.  But if I had to make a guess, and I understand your question correctly with the pictures and sketches provided, what you're doing in making the rabbit at the aft end of the false keel.  My Jolly Boat didn't have one so I've never done one, but I believe you want the gradual taper shown in graphite per your sketch.  Again, if I understand things correctly: after faring the hull, ideally you want the outboard side of your planking to be flush with the transom post.  I don't know if this is a single plank hull or a double plank hull and I'm sure that makes a big difference.  At this point I'd want the planks to sit a bit proud of your dry fitted transom post because you still have the fare the hull.  If you create the rabbit so that an unfared plank lays flush with the transom post, after faring it will be below flush - unless you have a second planking to go.  Once again, I'm only guessing so you probably should wait for a more experienced shipwright to chime in before you proceed.  And when they do, we will both learn something     

[glbarlow]

You’re over-thinking it.  You need enough keel to attach planks to and enough keel to support the planking. You especially need enough to attach the stem to. Keep in mind you can sand the planking, both second and first, to get the widths required. From what I see you’ve taken more than enough. 
 

I highly recommend you use the search function to find other Lady Nelson build logs, including mine. You’ll find they answer a lot of your questions. It’s the best way to build your community. We’ve all done our first builds and happy to offer help. 
 

[MangoFox]

14 hours ago, glbarlow said:

You’re over-thinking it.  You need enough keel to attach planks to and enough keel to support the planking. You especially need enough to attach the stem to. Keep in mind you can sand the planking, both second and first, to get the widths required. From what I see you’ve taken more than enough. 
 

I highly recommend you use the search function to find other Lady Nelson build logs, including mine. You’ll find they answer a lot of your questions. It’s the best way to build your community. We’ve all done our first builds and happy to offer help. 
 

 

Hi Glenn,

 

I am definitely an over thinker. I read your log beginning to end. Its up in the bookmarks for later reference. Appreciate the detail you went into, was good to have all the process in big chunks instead of delaminated by lots of other comments. I probably wont be able to scratch build much if any as I don't have that wide a tool set (for model work), or woodworking skill (especially at this scale) yet, so the kits parts will have to do. You ended up with a very good looking ship though so definitely something to strive towards. Those scratch built parts undoubtable looked better in the comparison pics.

 

Your photo reference for the deadwood section was a big help to, I noticed you stopped the first planking shy of the deadwood area, something I hadn't noticed in the other logs I'm reading through. I thought both layers of planking were required to lay over this section so that clears a lot up for me.

 

Also, I'm not going to put the sternpost on till after the second planking.....now.  

 

Cheers for the good read,

Mango. 

[MangoFox]

15 hours ago, Peanut6 said:

Regarding your faring, I would suggest you look at other build logs of this ship to get a better idea how the planks will lay out.  My little Jolly Boat was pretty straight forward, not as many planks to cover the span plus I didn't need to use any steelers or drop planks.  That and I didn't plank it per the kit instructions.   I have zero experience with your build so I can't help you with your question shown in your sketch.  Again I suggest you study other build logs to see what they did and if you're still unsure post a question in the appropriate section.  Another thing, your sketches are good and help show your "options", though including photos might be the key to convey exactly what you're talking about.  It would ensure there is no confusion in the written description.  But if I had to make a guess, and I understand your question correctly with the pictures and sketches provided, what you're doing in making the rabbit at the aft end of the false keel.  My Jolly Boat didn't have one so I've never done one, but I believe you want the gradual taper shown in graphite per your sketch.  Again, if I understand things correctly: after faring the hull, ideally you want the outboard side of your planking to be flush with the transom post.  I don't know if this is a single plank hull or a double plank hull and I'm sure that makes a big difference.  At this point I'd want the planks to sit a bit proud of your dry fitted transom post because you still have the fare the hull.  If you create the rabbit so that an unfared plank lays flush with the transom post, after faring it will be below flush - unless you have a second planking to go.  Once again, I'm only guessing so you probably should wait for a more experienced shipwright to chime in before you proceed.  And when they do, we will both learn something     

 

 

I've been having a look at a few other logs for the Lady and finally found a few that have some clear pictures of what my end result should be in this area. Good shout on taking a photo of the area/orientation on the ship as well to aid the drawing, looking at the drawing today I can see that you really do need to infer a bit to answer the question. Unfortunately I cant work on her tonight, but hopefully the next post will have a bit of progress. 

 

Cheers, 

Mango 

[MangoFox]

I've recently added the prow and keel. I bent up the bulwarks and planned to glue them on today, unfortunately when I dry fit them to the model there were multiple areas that presented issues. 

 

I asked the question if I could soak them again in the appropriate section on this forum (below): 

 

 

 The reply so far is yes, but it may delaminate if soaked too many times or for too long. 

 

I used the "nail's in a board" method to shape the bulwarks (like the modelers shipyard guy did), I checked all the nails for square but clearly something went wrong, particularly on the starboard side. I'm now thinking of cutting out the required shape into a piece of timber (same as glbarlow did in his build log) for the template, or soaking bending straight onto the bulkhead horns, thoughts?

 

In other news, I also accidently broke the tip of the prow (where the slot is for the bulwarks) while checking the faring of the bulkhead horns, a bit of superglue seems to have done the trick for repairing. Hopefully it will be a strong enough bond but that was a really unpleasant sound. 
 

I thought I'd have the bulwarks on in no time, glue set by tomorrow and be onto my first plank before I knew it, but it really feels like I took a big step backwards today. 

 

Would like to hear your thoughts on re-bending these bulwarks to a more desirable shape. 

 

Cheers,

Mango. 
 

[carlo_l]

Hi @MangoFox I love this model! Looking forward to see new updates on your log.

I made a video on how I did the first layer of planks on the Fifie. Ships are different but the technique might be helpful in your case too 😃 

 

 

[glbarlow]

The reason I cut a piece of wood in the shape of the ship using the plans is to avoid a bad fit. If you clamp, rubber band or whatever your gun port patterns (the correct name, bulwarks is confusing) to wood in the same pattern as the ship you’re naturally doing to have a better fit.

 

You should be able to re-soak them, just not for too long and not too many times because delaminating is a risk. But having a bad fit of the gun port patterns is going to result in a troublesome model at the start.

 

Some waviness is still likely and is fine, you’re going to plank over it.  It is critical though to have a tight solid glued fit of the pattern at every bulkhead extension.  Your photo shows them to be short at the stern, I don’t know why that is, lack of a tight fit down the sides…?

 

People on this forum respond better to photos, long paragraphs to explain problems can be a lot shorter and easier to understand with photos, just a suggestion. 
 

Hang in there, you’ll get it sorted out. It’s wood, everything can be fixed. 

[MangoFox]

Hi all,

 

I ended up reshaping the gun port patterns using a timber block cut into the shape of the false deck. I also used a plastic strip (the stuff they tie down boxes/pallets with) to keep it nice and evenly compressed. This was mainly to rectify  those problematic kinks in the gun ports closest to the bow, a result of my last bending attempt. I'm pretty happy with the results. 

 

 

Then I applied the gun port patterns to the model. I personally found this quite difficult. None of the other build logs mention it being hard, in fact most people seem to breeze though it. But for me, aligning them into the slot in the prow equally, and having them stay there was a challenge (next time I will use a spare clamp at the tip of the prow to provide more surface area to hold them there.  The map pins I used in the picture above worked, but were not ideal. Too much risk of splitting the prow).

 

I ended up using a tiny bit of super glue at the bow, applied to the gun ports where they would slot into the prow, along the edge of the false deck and  at the first bulkhead (part 2 on the plans). I then used regular PVA wood glue for the rest of the length so I would have more time to adjust any alignment issues. 

 

The main challenges I had here was only having a few appropriately sized clamps. I had to do one side at a time, making sure the other would line up and have space in the slotted area of the prow, but I had no way to hold them both in place at the same time to gauge the end result. Strategically using a limited number of clamps is not ideal so I will have to get some more. 

 

At the starboard transom, after the glue had finished curing, I noticed one of the bulwarks was too low, so I had to use white vinegar, a scalpel and quite a lot of patience to dissolve the glue back about 2 bulkheads and reposition it. This caused the MDF to expand and split, a bit like a sponge. A bit of wood glue and some hope got me through though. 

 

Below is the end result of that fiasco.  Its sitting much better now, the first try was significantly lower. Not sure how I didn't notice the error, I did have a bull clip holding down that area though so I probably just couldn't see. Rookie mistake. 

 

 

 

I did notice that they are not perfectly aligned. Its most evident staring straight at the bow. Its close enough though and I don't feel like its out far enough out to warrant backpedalling.  I feel this is something I can mask during planking. 

 

 

 

And now both gun ports are on, here is the Lady waiting for the next step, first planking. 

 

 

I honestly found this more difficult then I expected, which has me a bit worried about planking. I'm going to watch some more videos and read some more guides but in the next post I'm going to add some of my concerns about the process and would like any input you think may help. 

 

Cheers,

Mango.

[MangoFox]

HI all, 

 

So I'm about to start the first planking, but considering some of the challenges I've had on what appears to be the easier stuff, I thought I would seek some advice on the below before committing to the process. 

 

1) I do not have a rabbet all the way down the false keel. The instructions never mentioned it, and the modellers shipyard guy didn't do one in the video guide.  However he does briefly say "and we have a rabbet all the way down the keel" right before he starts explaining his planking technique. I just have my deadwood area at the stern sanded, and a touch of deadwood at the bow, pointed out in the MSY video guide sanded down. 

 

2) My gun port patterns are not  perfectly symmetrical. The instructions say to start the first plank right up against the bottom of the bulwarks, and the MSY guy plains down 2 planks at a time (port and starboard), I guess to maintain consistency. My thought on this one is I will have to just make one side at a time and my tick strips will be slightly different for each side. The difference isn't much but I know if I was to try to make 2 strakes at a time I will run into issues. 

 

3)  I've noticed in some build logs, some people stop the first planking shy of the stern deadwood area, others do not. Which is correct, which is easier for a beginner?

 

4) What are some other common issues I might run into that I might not be aware of. 

 

I'm planning on using Chucks bending technique as so many have suggested. Over the next few days I'll be sorting out an area to bend and any  equipment I might need. I'll also be making a few tick strips and generally preparing as best as I can for the process.

 

Tips/tricks/advice very welcome. 

Cheers,

Mango. 

 

 

 

[allanyed]

6 hours ago, MangoFox said:

I'm planning on using Chucks bending technique as so many have suggested. Over the next few days I'll be sorting out an area to bend and any  equipment I might need. I'll also be making a few tick strips and generally preparing as best as I can for the process.

This is great news.   If you have not already done so also study the primer on planking in the Articles data base.  You may find this preferable.  I have found both methods work admirably MOST of the time but there are a few tight bends where I find a spiled plank is sometimes easier to make and does not stress the wood. 

 

If scale matters to you maybe consider setting aside the walnut top layer of planking material and replace it with a tight grain species of wood.  Looking at photos in other build logs, the walnut kit material is very porous and looks terrible IF scale matters.  I totally understand that some builders do not care if parts of the kit are not to scale.  

 

Allan