Sloop-rigged packetboat by Strelok - 1:35 - based on Chapman plans - POB

[DaKea90]

Hi guys,

 

after a long time I'm almost done with my current project. I know, it's not maritime themed, but I'll show it anyways. The tanks only need their tracks and the soldiers in the back some paint. The next project will be a ship again.

I've been uncertain, WHICH ship I should build as a next. There are just too many good-looking vessels out there. My first plans were the Pinas-ship Berlin or the Brigantine Groß-Friedrichsburg, then I favoured more "modern" designs like the french L'Amaranthe (ship-rigged) or the british HMS Speedwell of 1752. Then I found out about the french Etna-Class heavy corvettes, armed with 20 24-pdr guns(!), but I thought "Yeah, all good, but also quite complicated". By chance, I found, that the af Chapman-plans are available online via the archive of the swedish naval museum. I looked them through and there was one boat, that caught my eye.

 

It's a 38.3 ft long packet boat (Plan XLII, No. 5).

 

It's small enough to not take up a huge amount of space and to be built in 1:35 scale (like all my tanks) to have a good comparison in size. Also it is - in scale - big enough to not be a fiddly affair (like the Golden Yacht, I've built). Furthermore, with one mast, it is simple enough for me. This will be my first POB build.

 

As there was not much to do at work during the last week, I was able to draw the plans in the CAD-programme, that we use at work to draw wooden houses or roofs 😆 Pictures of that will follow later. I only had time for the announcement now.

 

Stay tuned!

 

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Strelok

[Saburo]

Looks really interesting Strelok, I'm in the audience.

[DaKea90]

Hi guys,

 

as promised: here come more details and my current progress.

 

As I've said, I found the plans for the sloop on the internet. Via screenshot and Paint I secured the topview, sideview and "ribview" (pease give me the correct english words, if you may) in a seperate file and pronted the ribview to measure the dimensions and rescale the three plans to 1/35th scale. As noone would have guessed, this went wrong xD the topview came out in 1/35th, the ribview in 1/35,6 and the sideview in 1/47,9. So I measured them all again and re-drew them in said CAD programme. There I "built" it in 1/1 scale and let the PC do the magic to rescale them to 1/35th scale. Why easy, when you can make it difficult.

 

This is the sideview. Don't be confused, the stempost was too complex for the programme (or me) and will be taken directly from the original plans. the dotted lines show the height of the deck and cabins, the same hight minus the thickness of the planking (I took 6cm for deck planking and 3cm for the cabins, which scales to around 1,7mm for the decks and 0,9mm for the cabins)

You will notice the coloured lines. These are also marked in the two other plans and will help me to draw all needed bulkheads.

 

This is the plan for the backbone. It will be made out of 4mm thick plywood. All needed bulkheads are marked. The dotted lines extend to the topview to draw the tapering on each bulkhead.

This is the topview, again with all the coloured lines. At the points, where each dotted line coming from the bulkheads cross a coloured line, a line will orthogonally run to the ribview, where it will cross this same coloured line again. This will form the outline of each bulkhead.

This is said ribview template.

 

This is the template for the deck and cabins, already with a sketch for the planking. If you compare it to the original topview plan, you will see, that I took artistic license with the rear cabin.

From the original plans it is not clear, where the sides of the rear cabin are. Are they formed by the outlines of the ship (so does the cabine use the complete breadth of the ship) or any other construction? Is the roof flat or more a dome? Like are the side edges of the roof at deck level? There is not even an information about how it was entered (compared to the midship cabin, where there is this semicircular gangway-type of thing).

 

Wikipedia sais, that those packet ships could be used for passenger transportation too. So my guess is, that the rear cabin was used by the crew (as it is smaller) and the cabin amidships was used for passengers. Maybe it had some windows, a couple of simple beds and something like that.

Another question concerning the rear part is that of the tiller handle. In the sideview, you can see, that it runs hardly above the rear cabins roof (maybe around 5 - 10 cm above it) and merely protruding beyond its front edge. I think, this way the tiller would be hard to handle. Maybe someone can point me towards a possible solution. At the moment, I think about extending it a bit, so that the helmsman could stand before the cabine and handle the tiller.

 

The last thing I've already drawn are the top edges of bulkhead H to L, which form the walls and roof curvature of the midship cabin.

The red line is the water line. My plan is to draw the outlines of the bulkheads in the above mentioned manner on semi-transparent paper and lay this sketch then on top of these templates. In the bottom right is the template for the deck's curvature. The X marks the highest point of the deck, which will be taken from the sideview plan.

 

Yesterday, I tried to calculate the proportions of the mast and yards according to the charts Wolfram zu Mondfeld provides in his book. There are some big question marks concerning my results, but I will post them later.

 

Stay tuned!

Edited August 8, 2022 by Strelok

[DaKea90]

I'm back from my holidays on the german coast of the baltic sea!

 

And I brought back another nugget from a flea market 😲 the german edition of Frank Howard's "Sailing Ships of War 1400 - 1860" for a mere 10€ ($10, 8,49 pound). I had walked past this booth at least two or three times and never had never seen it. But as I was about to leave the market, the artwork caught my eye 😆

It might not be directly helpfull with the packet sloop, but you never know, what the future brings.

 

I also brought home some wood I found in the forest or beach... some birch, beech, something what may be young cherry and a bit of pine. I plan to let it dry, cut it into usefull bits and make parts of the rigging or other details out of it.

 

[uss frolick]

Are those early war Nashorns, oder Panzerhaubitzen?

[DaKea90]

The self-propelled guns are two "Dicker Max"-vehicles. They were bunker busters prototypes built between 1939 an 1941. They are armed with 10,5cm K18 artillery pieces. 

The diorama  shows them being readied just before the German invasion of the Soviet Union. One of the vehicles will be destroyed five days later by a sudden explosion of its ammunition, the other one will disappear in November 1942 somewhere near Stalingrad.

[wefalck]

These packets or 'postjagten' were used on established routes around the Baltic to transport passengers and mail. At that time what is today known as the Vorpommern region of Germany was under Swedish administration (from the Westfalian Peace Treaty in 1648 to the Vienna Congress of 1815, when it came to Prussia). There were regular connections between Stockholm and other Swedish ports on one side and for instance Stralsund on the other side.

 

These sloops were heavily canvassed for speed and owing to the square-sails presumably required a quite large crew. A much larger one than the comparable commercial 'jagten' had, that were usually sailed with only three or four hands, including the master.

 

As to the tiller, I would assume that it was operated with the aid of tackles, rather than directly by hand.

 

There are a number of drawings of similar 'postjagden' in the archive of the Danish naval yard in Copenhagen: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/other/index-creator/40/3353816/17149179. They may provide additional useful detail. Check out the drawings with these archive nos.: G-4059 to G-4064.

 

 

[DaKea90]

8 hours ago, wefalck said:

As to the tiller, I would assume that it was operated with the aid of tackles, rather than directly by hand.

 

There are a number of drawings of similar 'postjagden' in the archive of the Danish naval yard in Copenhagen: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/other/index-creator/40/3353816/17149179. They may provide additional useful detail. Check out the drawings with these archive nos.: G-4059 to G-4064.

There are some nice drawings in this archive! Thank you for that 😲 especially the ones showing the rig dimensions will be usefull!

 

I googled those tackle-supported tillers and I think, this is the way to go. I don't really know, HOW this works in detail, but I will have figured it out by the time, that I build it in scale.

I guess, the helmsman held the lose ends of the ropes of the starboardside and portside respectively in his hands, each one running through a tackle on the ship's side to a tackle mounted on the tiller and back to the outer tackle, where it was fastened.

 

If this true, the tackle-support ran either right in front of the rear cabin's wall or above its roof. That's another nice riddle. It's almost 10 p.m., so its solution is a task for tomorrow.

[DaKea90]

I just made a sketch concerning the tackles.

The red line is, as always, the water line. The blue one is the top of the rear cabin and the green and orange triangles show the rough position of the tackle-support in neutral position and extreme deflection. 

As you can see, in extreme deflection the tackle cross the level of the roof. 

So as I see it, there are three solutions now:

1. Such a large deflection was seen as such a rare case, that it was accepted, that the tackle-ropes rub over the roof

2. The rudder could not that widely deflected, that the tackles could not "cross" the level of the roof.

3. The tackle-support ran in front of the rear cabin.

[wefalck]

The geometry of the movement of the tiller is a bit complicated, as the rudder-shaft is inclined and it does not form a right angle with the rudder-shaft. The outer end of the tiller, of course, will move in an arc around the rudder-head as seen in plan-view. At the same time. looking from the front, the outer end of the tiller will move in arc downwards from the highest point, when it is in the middle.

 

At the moment I don't have the possibility to make a sketch, but I would think that there will a block attached to each side of the bulwark approximately, where the tiller would touch it, when put 'hard over', that is a bit backward from the front edge of the after cabin. Two single blocks would be attached to the front end of the tiller. So the runner of the tackle would be fixed to the block at the bulwark, led to the block on the tiller, run back to the bulwark block, and then from there forward. The arrangements would be mirror image on port and starbord. There could also be a lead-block a bit forward of the rear-cabin edge so that the runner can clear the cabin roof without chafing. 

 

Please note that this is purely conjectural and one may need to have look at (contemporary) models, for instance, for examples. Below there are some images from models that were constructed around 1900 by professionals for the Altonaer Museum (Hamburg) on the basis of plans and paintings etc. from the 1820s to 1850s. This is obviously about 100 years later than your example, but the principles have not changed much. I don't have pictures of 18th century examples.

 

Above a schooner model that more or less illustrates the example that I have tried to explain above.

The image above shows an arrangement similar to what you have, where the tiller is quite low above the raised after deck ('roof') and does not protrude a lot beyond its edge. No tackle was provided, so I am not quite sure, how the tiller was worked, when the rudder was hard over. As a matter of fact, the area of these rudders is quite small and they were mainly used to initiate a turn, which was mainly affected by taking away sails either before or after the mast to make the ship turn into the wind or away from it. It also served to keep the ship on a steady course, correcting small deviations due to jeering.

 

[DaKea90]

I think abou getting the volumes 5.1 - 5.3 of zu Mondfeld's "Encyclopedia of building historical scale model ships" (Enzyklpädie des Historischen Schiffsmodellbaus), which are about boats and small vessels or vol. 8 about ropes, tackles and rigging 🤔

 

Does anybody know, if they are - in this particular case - of good use?

[mtaylor]

3 hours ago, Strelok said:

I think abou getting the volumes 5.1 - 5.3 of zu Mondfeld's "Encyclopedia of building historical scale model ships" (Enzyklpädie des Historischen Schiffsmodellbaus), which are about boats and small vessels or vol. 8 about ropes, tackles and rigging 🤔

 

Does anybody know, if they are - in this particular case - of good use?

 

I didn't know that book came in "volumes".  The one I have is in English and has everything.   It is a good general reference.  There are, I have found, difference in details. And the rigging is pretty generic but then again, I think all rigging was pretty similar.

[DaKea90]

Yes, there is one book covering everything, which I have, too. But I found a series of books on amazon, where he goes into each chapter in more depth. So there are three volumes of around 160 pages each about boats and small vessels or two volumes of 220 pages each about building the hull. Therefore the single book covering everything acts like a summary for the series.

 

I think, as the volumes of the series seem to be in the same order as the chapters in his book, I think I should take a look, where Mondfeld talks about rudder- and tiller-constructions and buy the book, that deepens the corresponding chapter

Edited August 24, 2022 by Strelok
Addition

[wefalck]

I don't know von Mondfeld's books, but I tended to shy away from them a his coverage is to broad and he surely was not an expert on all the periods. I understand, that there are also quite a few errors in them.

 

The safest way is always to try to dig up primary sources from the period in question. Obviously, there are regional differences in practices, but as ships and people moved around in the Northern European region (Baltic, North Sea), so that practices diffused around it. So, one can look around Swedish, Danish, British and the scantily available German sources (Images, drawings, models, etc.)

[DaKea90]

I took a look at the book and unfortunately, the rudder/tiller construction is mentioned in the equipment-chapter. According to my thesis, this would correspond with Vol. 4 of the book series. Unfortunately this volume is either not available anymore OR it is not yet published. 😕 

[wefalck]

Zu Mondfeld died some years ago and I think, the series is not continued.

[DaKea90]

A quick update:

 

the first sketches for the frames are done

 

The sketches for the frames C and D are done, too, but I don't have pictures of them at the moment. It's a low progress. I need approximately 30min for one frame. Having to do 18 frames, it will take me at least 9 hours time, if I get everything right at the first time 🤔 I don't expect to be this fast xD We have a saying in Germany: "Mühsam nährt sich das Eichhörnchen." Translated into english it means roughly "Tediously eats the squirrel". I think this can be applied here 😆 but if one rushes a task, one will do mistakes

[DaKea90]

A quick update: I've done a first sketch for the rig. 

 

Note: this is roughly a third of the size of what it will be, when it's being built. The rig will be drawn in full size as soon as it's finalised. 

 

here is a list of the dimensions. Written in black and blue are the original lengths and diameters, in green you can see the down-scaled dimensions for 1/35th.

From top to bottom:

Mast, top mast, bowsprit, jibboom, crossjack yard, cross-topyard, cross-royalyard, gaff, gaff boom.

 

I've based my calculations on the dimensions of the Sloop "Mediator" and the ones, Mondfeld gives in his book. Where their measurements differed greatly, I've stuck to the "Mediator".

Edited October 19, 2022 by Strelok
Addition

[wefalck]

Nice drawing - one doesn't see hand-drawings that often anymore theses days.

 

The yards actually look quite narrow. The main course (Breitfock) then appears to be rather narrow and heigh. Top- and topgallant-sails look more in the typical proportions.

[bruce d]

45 minutes ago, Strelok said:

Where their measurements differed greatly, I've stuck to the "Mediator".

Hello Strelok,

I am enjoying your log and admire your approach to the task of scratch-building from Admiralty draughts.

Perhaps there is something in this other thread ...

... that will help with details of the masting/rigging. Starting at post #75 and for a few posts afterward I have posted some of the comments from Chapelle that expand on his research into Mediator and how he compares her to other vessels. He also explains what part of his sail plan was speculation. This may be of use as you look backwards across two and a half centuries to make your own sail plan .

HTH

Bruce

[wefalck]

Are you aware of this drawing in the Danish Rigsarkivet (archive of the navy yard):

 

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?epid=17149179#190381,31921412

The drawing is from 1789 and gives the spar dimensions. Their shape then can be reconstructed using the methods of the time.

 

 

 

[bruce d]

Well done Eberhard!

Here is some more information on the records in their archives. As you can see, there are other drawings of the same subject, including the ship's boat.

 

 

One of the drawings listed is ...

[DaKea90]

2 hours ago, wefalck said:

The yards actually look quite narrow. The main course (Breitfock) then appears to be rather narrow and heigh. Top- and topgallant-sails look more in the typical proportions.

That's what I thought, too. I guess, there is an error in my calculations. 

I will check this again 

 

I know the danish drawings. I've even saved them on my hard drive. *face palm* thanks for reminding 🙏 

 

@bruce d thank you for this link. I will take a look at it

[wefalck]

Indeed, these are copies from the old paper registers (Findbuch in German) of the Rigsarkivet. I remember flicking through them, when I visited the archives a couple of times in the late 1990s (during a time when I had a business trip to Copenhagen every other month or so).

 

The most valuable aspect of these register pages probably is, that they list which drawings belong together, because as one can see from the numbers, they may be dispersed throughout the archives. The reason for this (probably) is, that they were organised on a subject-basis. So, for instance, the drawings G44XX and G5XX are anchors, G45XX and G45XX stoves and baking ovens, etc.

 

In fact this is the royal yacht HELLEFLYNDEREN (THE HALIBUT). Not quite a packet, but obviously in the basic structure similar.

 

B156:

C192

F149

 

F151 (not sure it really belongs here, but it shows indeed a deep, narrow course ...)

G520a (the ship's boat)

 

G520b (sail-plan for the boat)

G1998

 

G1999

 

G2000

 

G2001

 

G2001 II

G4455

 

G4597

 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by wefalck

[DaKea90]

Unfortunately, my danish is non existent, so can anybody translate the text written on sketch G 2001 II? It confuses me, that there are two different rigs drawn.

 

Concerning the very narrow yards: I think, my error lies in not reading Chapman thoroughly. He says concerning his rigging templates, that the length of the yards measured there "have [...] their half length". This taken into account, the crossjack yard is not 15,6cm long but 31,2cm with its diameter increasing from 2,8mm to 5,6mm. This brings with it a conflict with Mondfeld's numbers, BUT I must admit, that I've taken the numbers provided for the mizzen mast of a ship-rig. I guess, they can't really be applied to a small sloop rig 🤔

 

[wefalck]

Give me time until tomorrow evening. I manage reasonably well with technical Danish ...

[DaKea90]

So, I did a bit of excel-magic

 

St. Croix and the Korsar are ship's plans out of the danish archive. The Chapman Skizze refers to its sketch of a sloop rig on plate LXII. The diameter ratios are out of proportion, because everything was 1mm thick and therefore not usable.

The rough process was entering the measurements, that were taken from the original plans. Converting these into metric was done by the programme, as was calculating the ratios. For the bottom right table, it was the other way around. I measured the breadth from the plan in the ANM and let excel calculate the average ratio for each position. I then let excel multiply the ratio with the breadth and so on. So, although the sample is very small, I have here the average dimensions for a sloop rig.

 

Now looking at it, I've found, that there must be an error in the topgallant mast section and maybe in the yard section, too.

PS: I solved the issue. The average ration for the mast is equal to E7, ergo 1,1786 and the one for the yard is 1,4412. This equals a mast length of 516,85 cm and 631,98 cm for the yard or in scale 14,77 cm and 16,15 cm respectively.

 

During this process, I realized, that my plans have an incorrect scale ... again 😖 the breadth is 1cm too small and the length 3cm. Sooooo... I need to think about this. Redraw all plans to match the scale or just ignore it.

 

Stay tuned

[wefalck]

Here you are, the translatiopn of 2001-II – Sail-plan

 

Note: the ending ‚-en‘ in Danish nouns is the definite article ‚the‘, ‚-er‘ ist he plural form 

 

Copie Tegning - Copy of Drawing

På seijlere samt dimensioner af mast og rundholter til en af de nye type Konge Jagter, førende 12 stykker 4 lb canoner og 12 lb haubitzer – 

For the sails and the dimensions of the mast and spars for one of the new type of Royal Yacht, which carries 12 pieces 4 pounder cannon or 12 pounder howitzers.

 

Lang i mellem spündigerne – Length between the rabbets: 64 fod/feet 2 tom./inch

 

		Heele Længden Fod – tom Whole length Feet - inches	Diameter Tomme - inches	Top og nokker Fod – tom Top or end Feet - inches
Masten		79-6	20	7-6
Stangen til wandtets plads – topmast down to doubling	21-1
Toppen til boven topsejl – top until above the topsail	19-6
Heele Længden of Stangen – whole length of topmast	35-6	35-6	8 1/2	19-6
Bougsprydet uden for Steven – bowsprit outside stem	29
Inden for ditto – within for the same	10-6
Heele Længden	39-6	39-6	14
Klyverbommen uden for Bougspr. – jib-boom outside stem	16
Within for the same	30
Heele Lngden - Whole length	46	46	7 1/2	1-6
Bommen for stor seijlet – main-sail boom		56	13	1-10
Gaffelen - gaff		30-3	9	1-3
Den mindste gaffel – the shortest gaff		18-9	6	1-3
Bergine raae – bagien yard		42	8	3-6
Topseils raae – top-sail yard		32	6	3-8
Boven topseils raae – topgallant yard		21	4	2-8
Under laeseils spirer – lower studding-sail boom		20-4	4	2-8
Under læseijls raae – lower studding-sail yard		6	2 1/2	2-6
Boven læseijls ditto. – upper studding-sail yard		10-8	2 1/2	1-6
Breedfokke og underlæseijls – main-course and lower studding-sails		27	5	1-6
Driver udlageren eller spiren – driver boom		27	5	1-3
Ditto. Raae – dito. yard		6-10	2 1/2	2-3

 

NB. 1790 den 26de July blev giordt en tegning til en nye inden klyver, hvis under lig tilligemed revet er truket op prikled med rødt samt bemærked med C+, hvoraf den forfærdiges og som skal væere af den fiineste og beste af dette slags dug.

 

1790 on the 26th of July a drawing was made for a new jib-sail, on which the reef is drawn dotted with red and marked with C+, from which it is completed and which must be of the finest and best kind of cloth.

 

NB. 1806 den 9de Decbr. blev beordret at forfardige en stor klyver til de nye slags Konge Jagter hvilken er trukken herpå med grøndt tilligemed den befaleder forandring af stor masten samt fokken.

 

1806 on 9th Dec. was ordered to make a big jib-sail for the new style Royal Jagt which is drawn on here with green as well as the ordered change of the big mast and the jib.

 

Actually, for us Germans written Danish is not that difficult, if one understands some basic differences. There is also GoogleTranslator, but it struggles with the nautical terms and the orthography of old documents has to be adapted to the modern one, e.g. aa now is å, oe is ø, etc. Danish pronounciation is a different matter, of course

 

So it seems that drawing 2001-II is a copy of the original sail-drawing (F146) on which changes made in July 1790 and December 1806 are indicated.

Edited October 20, 2022 by wefalck

[DaKea90]

So, a quick update:

 

I formulated three options about how to proceed after realizing, my plans are 9% too small.

 

1. Just proceed like nothing happend and build with two different scales. -> This is my least favourite, I won't do it
2. Shrink the rig dimensions to fit the hull. -> My second least favourite, because I planned to display the packet with some figures, which do have a scale of 1/35th, so essentially, it's also two different scales

3. Redraw EVERYTHING! -> The most work-intensive, but the one option that won't bother me everytime I look at.

 

 

I copied the packets plans from ANM onto a sheet of millimeter-grid paper. With the help of excel, I generated a grid of 2,7mm x 2,7mm. This way, I should be able to enlarge the plans just by counting squares. Should this not work somehow, I will turn to Option 2 and use the plans, that I have and adjust the rig dimensions.

 

Furthermore, I've drawn the anchor using and altering the template, Wolfram zu Mondfeld provides.

[wefalck]

Well, may be you should get yourself a 2D-CAD, then up- or down-scaling is jsut a question of pushing a button ...

 

I wouldn't put much trust in zu Mondfeld, rather check out the long list of contemporary anchor-drawings provided in the Danish archive. They begin largely from No. G 4445 and are often associated with particular ships and dated (see the one for the Jagt HELLEFLYNDEREN above).