Hubac's Historian Posted November 10, 2022 Share #121 Posted November 10, 2022 Hi Bill, Your paint looks really great! The wale bolting, on the other hand, does not look so good. Generally, I don’t like to levy harsh critiques, but I feel compelled to speak up, here. The primary issue, here, is that the scale is much too large; at that scale, it would be better to not do the bolting at all. When I did this, I used very fine styrene rod (.020): https://evergreenscalemodels.com/products/218-020-5mm-od-rod Also, the layout matters. Although it is not critically important to change it, Heller represents butt joints on the wales, which is a complete fiction. These large structural timbers would have been scarfed together with, approximately 4’ long scarf joints. The bolting pattern, though, should be alternating top and bottom (zigzag), and closely spaced. If you zoom-in on this Puget drawing of the Royal Louis, you can even see this: Or, perhaps better seen on the Berain drawing of the SR: I don’t mean to be a rivet-counter, Bill, but scale does matter, here. Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 10, 2022 Author Share #122 Posted November 10, 2022 Marc it may be best I just not do the wale bolting before I get to far into it? Lot of time and effort if it is wrong! I can repair the few I did already. So in the photo included here, it is wrong as well? Bill Morrison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted November 10, 2022 Share #123 Posted November 10, 2022 What the builder above did is a little bit better, in terms of pattern, but it is still out of scale. As to whether it is worth the effort to go much smaller and represent many more bolt heads - I think that is a very individual choice; for me, adding these small custom modifications is what makes the hobby fun and interesting. I will easily spend absurd amounts of time on the smallest things. I can’t even tell you how many hours I’ve put into making my headrails and headrail support structure. For me, the rewards are in figuring out how to go about making something, and then enjoying the finished result. The time spent is almost irrelevant. To other builders, though, it just feels like tedium. That choice is entirely up to you. 72Nova, popeye2sea and Jeff T 3 Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 10, 2022 Author Share #124 Posted November 10, 2022 Marc, like you, I really enjoy adding the small custom modifications. Enjoyed that with my Victory as I learned from you guys. I do want to add the wale bolts as I am very much using the picture above which I really like as my inspiration. I think I will try to grind the pin heads down a bit (probably still be out if scale) and improve my pattern. As we have said, there are not to many visitors to my ship room that will point out that the wale bolts are clearly out if scale. 😊 I more want them to comment that is a beautiful model ship I built and appreciate the small details I incorporated. I guarantee 100% of the people who will see mine will ask what is that ship? Will have no idea of it’s origin or period architecture. I want to work in that middle area. Much better than OOB but short of perfect authenticity. That is a more happy place where bourbon can be included while building. 🥃😀 Jeff T, Hubac's Historian, popeye2sea and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 11, 2022 Author Share #125 Posted November 11, 2022 As I was saying. Bolts removed. Holes puttied. Bourbon sipped! May be a little smooth jazz playing. 😋 Bill Morrison, ccoyle and Ian_Grant 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted November 11, 2022 Share #126 Posted November 11, 2022 I’m enjoying a little blended scotch, myself - CHEERS!🥃 Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 11, 2022 Author Share #127 Posted November 11, 2022 Now your talking Marc! I have a bit of Glenmorangie Single Malt I picked up in Scotland. I sip it as well. Both it, and it a nice bourbon, helps get all the holes lined up. And if you throw in the fumes from some Testor glue. Now you got something. 😀 Hubac's Historian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted November 11, 2022 Share #128 Posted November 11, 2022 My favorite from that distillery is the Glenmorangie Sherry Cask 🥃 Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 11, 2022 Author Share #129 Posted November 11, 2022 There is a newer bourbon distillery here in Louisville (Rabbit Hole) that distills one of it’s four bourbons in a sherry cask. It is has a really nice, smooth flavor. Look for it at your favorite liquor store. A little pricy but worth it. Hubac's Historian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veszett Roka Posted November 11, 2022 Share #130 Posted November 11, 2022 Single malt lover here too. Bill you really need to come to Budapest one day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted November 11, 2022 Share #131 Posted November 11, 2022 Laphroaig is one that I could never adapt my palate to. The peat-i-ness of the Islays is a little much for me. Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veszett Roka Posted November 11, 2022 Share #132 Posted November 11, 2022 48 minutes ago, Hubac's Historian said: Laphroaig is one that I could never adapt my palate to. The peat-i-ness of the Islays is a little much for me. I like it especially for that taste. We are different, and this is what i love a lot in this site: No one say that 'this is a crap' or 'Laphroaig just for idiots' just that 'it is not in my tase'. Respect, Marc Hubac's Historian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 11, 2022 Author Share #133 Posted November 11, 2022 Veszett I would love to, and not just for the single malt! Of course now guys I have to lean more toward the bourbons rather than scotch, which I like very much as well, or I would be forced to move out of Kentucky! 😀 Hubac's Historian and Veszett Roka 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted November 11, 2022 Share #134 Posted November 11, 2022 12 minutes ago, Veszett Roka said: I like it especially for that taste. We are different, and this is what i love a lot in this site: No one say that 'this is a crap' or 'Laphroaig just for idiots' just that 'it is not in my tase'. Respect, Marc Respect is always my intent. Veszett Roka 1 Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted November 11, 2022 Share #135 Posted November 11, 2022 🐎🐎🐎 and 🥃🥃 Two things any self-respecting Kentuckian can not do without 😉 Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 11, 2022 Author Share #136 Posted November 11, 2022 Absolutely my friend. 😊 Hubac's Historian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 11, 2022 Author Share #137 Posted November 11, 2022 Ian I started last king at the carriage parts and barrels for the cannons. I clearly see what you mean by the trunnions being to for forward in the barrels! When I compared where the barrel would set in the carriage with the trunnions as is to an extra Victory cannon I have, it looks like the trunnions are almost 1/8” to for forward. The barrel on the Victory cannon is even with the end of the carriage. The SR barrel as is would continue on out past the back of the carriage and look really awkward as you said. You said you may not move the trunnions on the hidden guns but I am curious (and will find out soon) if the barrels will extend out of the hatch if I don’t. Of course I could maybe figure out an easier way to cut off the trunnions on the hidden cannons and just slide the barrel forward in the carriage using some other hidden support. Ian_Grant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted November 12, 2022 Share #138 Posted November 12, 2022 Yes, the breech end should be about even with the rear of the carriage to allow it to sit nicely on the quoin (elevating wedge). What did you think of the wheel positions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 12, 2022 Author Share #139 Posted November 12, 2022 Well different from the Victory cannons, there does not appear to be a preset place on the bottom of the carriage to put the wheels. It seems as if I/we can place the wheels where they look the most appropriate. I am going to move them closer to the ends of the carriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 12, 2022 Author Share #140 Posted November 12, 2022 One thing I am curious about. The Heller instructions and some of the build photos I have seen have the entire carriage, including the wheels, red. Would that be correct? Would the wheels have actually painted red? I can’t imagine that being the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted November 12, 2022 Share #141 Posted November 12, 2022 As far as I know, that is correct for French ships of the period: The Louis Quinze mode of circa 1710. Bill Morrison 1 Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted November 12, 2022 Share #142 Posted November 12, 2022 42 minutes ago, Bill97 said: Well different from the Victory cannons, there does not appear to be a preset place on the bottom of the carriage to put the wheels. It seems as if I/we can place the wheels where they look the most appropriate. I am going to move them closer to the ends of the carriage. No indicating marks or notches? It seems a jig is required for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 12, 2022 Author Share #143 Posted November 12, 2022 Thanks Marc. That makes painting easier! This is kind of interesting. I turned the primed carriage base piece over and there are some fine molded lines that would for sure place the wheels close together. I just just stacked the parts together for one of the guns to see what I think. Not exactly sure where I should place the wheels exactly. When I laid the corresponding barrel next to it you can see where the trunnions would have me place it. But if I move the barrel forward half, or more, is forward of the carriage which gravity would make it difficult to keep it raised. I wonder if the trunnions are only slightly wrong for center if gravity? Hubac's Historian and Bill Morrison 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 12, 2022 Author Share #144 Posted November 12, 2022 (edited) Along with tinkering with the cannons I did finish painting the hull today. Still have to decide if I want to add the out of scale wale bolts. Edited November 12, 2022 by Bill97 Baker, Bill Morrison and Hubac's Historian 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted November 12, 2022 Share #145 Posted November 12, 2022 Bill, still think you should PM Dafi. Look at the details he's going into for cannons on his Constitution; he did the same for SR's guns. Bill Morrison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 12, 2022 Author Share #146 Posted November 12, 2022 Ian I did PM Daniel. He sent me this a link to his SR build on a German site. I told Daniel my German translation skills were lacking. However it did contain this one photo of his cannons. Bill Morrison and Ian_Grant 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted November 12, 2022 Share #147 Posted November 12, 2022 Yes, that's the photo I remember. Bashed one is much better. The hole is for the breeching rope in the old French fashion.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted November 12, 2022 Author Share #148 Posted November 12, 2022 I agree Ian. To make sure I see what you are seeing, the one on the left is the bashed cannon? If I zoom in on the bashed cannon I can see a small pinkish spot where I guess you he trunnion used to be. Daniel did not move it a lot. Just enough to get the (no nautical terms here) band around the end of the cannon to set on the block thingy on the back of the carriage? 😊 Ian_Grant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted November 12, 2022 Share #149 Posted November 12, 2022 (edited) The “cascabel” to set on the “quoin.” The incorrect trunnion location is not something I have considered. Fortunately, I have not painted my visible deck guns, yet, so I can move these. Doing so is a tremendous improvement. One other fiction that was pointed out to me is where the trunnions rest on the carriages. Heller represents a short raised block, onto which the trunnions rest, and over which there would be cap squares. In reality, such a small block of wood would never resist the tremendous recoil forces of firing a gun. Instead, the trunnions should be set into a continuous top edge of each cheek, that is only stepped on its aft edge. I have not decided what, if anything, I plan to do about this, as I have already painted my carriages. I could fill-in a little bit before and after the short blocks and that would be an improvement that doesn’t alter the height of the gun above deck. At some point, in the future, I will decide whether that extra effort is worth it to me. Edited November 12, 2022 by Hubac's Historian Bill Morrison 1 Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted November 12, 2022 Share #150 Posted November 12, 2022 On mine I shaved off the raised trunnion supports completely and carved a new semicircular bed for the trunnion. I added cap squares made from black paper on top of the trunnions. I also moved the trunnions back a bit on the cannons by shaving off the trunnions then pushing a small brass rod through holes I drilled through the cannon in the appropriate spot. I did not end up moving the wheels for most of the cannons because I already had them assembled and they were going into the lower decks anyway. I did change the ones that were going to be visible on the upper decks. Regards, Henry Ian_Grant and Hubac's Historian 2 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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