1st scratch build. Which wood

[Jaager]

15 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

The USN's ship model "mil specs" also require lifts be in two pieces, one to each side and glued together down the centerline (being cut two at a time as described in my previous post.) I believe this is required because of the propensity of a single plank splitting along the grain at the "pointy ends" of the center cut-out, but I'm not sure I understand exactly why that would be any different than a glue joint. I suppose the glue joint done properly would be stronger than a narrow section of grain alone.

I was spotting you the work needed for lofting of the WL on the tug.   I purposely have set my focus to end at 1860.  I am buried under by all of the choices as it is. Including steel would put me into a  positive feedback loop.  I do think that the transition steel vessels up until 1914 contained some very interesting and bizarre subjects - almost totally ignored.

 

I missed the part about the two part bilateral symmetry.   Perhaps the reason is to have opposing tension.  Lifts from a single board may allow a bend: crook/crown?  I have always assumed that the hollow requirement was to reduce the damage caused by changes in humidity.   With wooden ship models of vessels before 1860,  the difference in weight that being hollow produces seems like it would not be significant.   For a CVN, or BB at 1:48 the difference would be significant.  But then a CVN could probably carry HMS Victory 1765 on davits as a very large lifeboat.

[Bob Cleek]

2 hours ago, Jaager said:

With wooden ship models of vessels before 1860, the difference in weight that being hollow produces seems like it would not be significant. 

I don't think it would be significant in that case, either. We must remember, though, that the USN specs for ship models were designed (and later written) for ship models of WWII vintage and newer, so six foot long models weren't all that unusual. A modern-day aircraft carrier at 1:96 would run around ten and a half feet long.

 

I must confess that after checking it, I discovered my recollection of the USN model mil specs was "bass ackwards." They prohibit gluing the two halves of lifts cut together at the ends in models of less than 12" maximum beam! They only require hollowed lifts for models with more than a 12" beam.  They say that on hulls of less than 12" maximum beam they require that "...hull lifts shall be cut to the full body shape; lifts shall not be cut in halves, thereby creating a glue seam along the vertical centerline of the model." This would suggest that hollowed lifts were at the builder's option in hulls with less than a 12" maximum beam as long as the lifts were built of a solid piece of wood, and mandatory for hull's with a greater than 12" maximum beam and hulls over a 12" maximum beam could be glued up of two pieces along the centerline. That would tend to make sense because mahogany or basswood lift stock wider than 12" isn't all that easy to come by.  All and all, ship modelers would do well to aspire to following the Navy's specifications. 

 

Actual text of USN ship model contract specifications:

 

Hull

Hulls shall be built up in lifts of clear, first-grade mahogany or basswood; doweled and glued together with water-resistant glue. The wood shall be completely free of knots, checks, and sap pockets and shall be thoroughly seasoned. Models over 12 inches beam must be hollowed for reduction of weight The hull shall be composed of the least number of parts necessary to achieve the proper shape. An excessive number of glue joints shall be avoided. On models less than 12 inches beam, hull lifts shall be cut to the full body shape: lifts shall not be cut in halves, thereby creating a glue seam along the vertical centerline of the model. The lifts shall conform accurately to lines of the vessel as shown by the plans. A stable, durable, flexible body putty may be used in moderation to fill gaps.

 

Nautical Research Guild - Article - Specifications for Construction of Exhibition Models of U.S. Naval Vessels (thenrg.org)

[Riotvan88]

11 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

if the body section plans are available without the waterlines superimposed, or if one wanted to set the thickness of their lifts themselves, it's an easy thing to line off your own waterlines on top of the body sections and take off the distances at each body section station for each waterline. 

After some consideration I'm going to attempt a bread and butter build. I'm going to create the WLs using tracing paper and Mark them off over the original plans. 

 

I plan to use 1inch thick basswood. I'll see how it goes. Whilst not in a rush it looks to be a quicker build method than planking an internal support structure. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Riotvan88

[Riotvan88]

Looking online it appears impossible to buy large boards of basswood in the UK that would be wide and long enough to cut out the WLs.....

 

Also pricing this up with something like pine it's going to cost 100s..

 

Anyone in UK know a supplier? 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Riotvan88

[No Idea]

On 3/10/2023 at 9:36 AM, Riotvan88 said:

Hi guys I'm doing my first scratch build of Zwarte zee tug. I'm guessing the frames should be 5mm plywood? I've noticed many different woods available on Cornwall model boats site. Is ply sufficient for frame or should they be hardwood? 

 

Also for planking what should be used considering the planking won't be visable like a period ship.  Cheap strip wood or walnut/cherry? I'm guessing the expensive strip wood would be used for a period ship where the planks are decorative? 

 

Cheers

Guys

Hi Mate

 

If you're building this as an RC ship plywood will be fine for your bulkheads.  Any ply will do as you will need to give it a good coat of epoxy resin or fibreglass inside to keep it water proof.  The reason being water will get inside when you sail it.

 

As for the planking thats entirely up to you - You are going to have to coat it with resin and cloth on the outside so you are right you do not need anything expensive at all.  What you really need is space inside to get the motors, esc, receiver and batteries in which do take up a lot of space.

 

So make the bulkheads as narrow as possible to give you the room that you need.  Here's picture of my Anteo's frame to give you some idea.  Its hollowed out and rienforced to give space to get a boiler in.

The same frame after double planking with Castello and mahogany. You will just need to use any wood as you will be painting it for a finish.

Good luck  - Mark

 

[Jaager]

57 minutes ago, Riotvan88 said:

Looking online it appears impossible to buy large boards of basswood in the UK

Basswood is not a species for you.   It is a North American species.  It is our substitute for Lime/Linden.  And it is a poor one at that. 

 

Your lumber yards do not play nice,   your Pine is an import from here.  You don't want it under those conditions.

It looks like your substitutes are English Cedar  or  European Douglas Fir.    Look at builders lumber yards.  Go with domestic species.

[Riotvan88]

26 minutes ago, Jaager said:

Your lumber yards do not play nice,

Thanks for the help. This is certainly true. Quotes for 1 inch thick boards sized appropriately to cut full WL as single pieces are in excess of £1000 using English cedar or Douglas fir. 

 

I had decided to give the bread and butter method a go but not at prices like that. 

[Jaager]

34 minutes ago, Riotvan88 said:

Quotes for 1 inch thick boards sized appropriately to cut full WL as single pieces are in excess of £1000 using English cedar or Douglas fir. 

OK    The lumber is planed.  When you buy an off the shelf 1" board, it is probably 3/4" thick.  You are paying for the wood chips.

I advise accepting reality.  Buy the off the shelf boards.   Get a board wide enough to do half of the hull. Glue port and starboard at the midline.

Measure the actual thickness and loft your WL to match what you can get.   Find out which builders lumber yard or building supply is used by your local contractors.

Get what they use.  No Net,  visit in person.  The on-line guys seem to be real sharks.

[Edwardkenway]

B and Q do a clear pine board, 1.2m x 400mm x 18mm for around £30.

2.4m is £50

Is the tug wider than  400mm?  Other than that most builders merchants have a timber section.

Would not a good sheet of marine ply be suitable? A 2.4 x 1.2 x 9, 12 or 18 mm would be around £30-50 respectively.

Just chiming in here😉

[Jaager]

25 minutes ago, Edwardkenway said:

Would not a good sheet of marine ply be suitable?

For WL bread and butter, I think that shaping the end grain of plywood would be a perfectly awful experience.

Your provided prices are a sign of sanity over there.  It is still about twice what we pay for similar.

It takes things back to doable for the OP.

[Riotvan88]

17 hours ago, Jaager said:

It is still about twice what we pay for similar.

I think wood must be more expensive in the UK. This model is about 1 meter long. Even at £30 a sheet your likely to only get one WL out of each sheet and need about 5 to 10 WLs depending on hull. Stil very expensive.  

 

I'm going to search for a local yard and ask around. As a bread and butter looks less tedious than building a structure and planking it.

[Jaager]

I just checked Home Depot site.  

A 2x6 8' long  is $8  that is actually   1.5" x 5.5"  x ~2 m     

With a bandsaw and thickness sander you could get  2 layers for one side  or 1 layer of the whole hull for ~ 16 L?  If 1" layers - which is maybe too thick.

You can probably get by with 6-8. 

 

A 2x6 x 10'   ~3m  = $10  or for you ~ 20 L.

With 1/2"  layers  each board  =   6   5.5" x 1 m

Two boards may be enough.  CYA = 3 boards  that is ~60 L.

 

If you beg nicely, you may find a local cabinetmaker or woodworker with a bandsaw.  The lumberyard will maybe cross cut the board into 1 m lengths ( Measure your max hull length - add a buffer - longer than needed is wasteful, too short is a disaster.)  The few cuts you need and using a softwood, the job is zip/zip.  They may also have a big boy thickness sander. 

 

[Riotvan88]

1 hour ago, Jaager said:

I just checked Home Depot site.  

A 2x6 8' long  is $8  that is actually   1.5" x 5.5"  x ~2 m     

With a bandsaw and thickness sander you could get  2 layers for one side  or 1 layer of the whole hull for ~ 16 L?  If 1" layers - which is maybe too thick.

You can probably get by with 6-8. 

 

A 2x6 x 10'   ~3m  = $10  or for you ~ 20 L.

With 1/2"  layers  each board  =   6   5.5" x 1 m

Two boards may be enough.  CYA = 3 boards  that is ~60 L.

 

If you beg nicely, you may find a local cabinetmaker or woodworker with a bandsaw.  The lumberyard will maybe cross cut the board into 1 m lengths ( Measure your max hull length - add a buffer - longer than needed is wasteful, too short is a disaster.)  The few cuts you need and using a softwood, the job is zip/zip.  They may also have a big boy thickness 

Thanks for the Info. I'm in the UK and unfortunately it is much more expensive. A 2x6 inch 8 foot long piece of wood here is around £35 and upwards. Roughly $40 US. That makes an expensive build. 

[Jaager]

Two lessons from this:

It is not practical to scratch build unless you are or can access your own sawmill/millwork  tools.  Looks to be heading to you will have to be sawyer as well.

It makes sense that in the UK, most old buildings are refurbished rather than removed and replaced.

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

Jaager's right. Anybody doing any amount of woodworking beyond stick framing carpentry needs to have, or have access to, their own milling equipment. Only then is the price of wood anywhere near reasonable. (Even rough sawn wood at the lumberyard is much less expensive than finished four sides.) With a bandsaw and a thickness planer, you are good to go and you'll discover there are lots of sources of wood, particularly recycled wood. Make friends with somebody who's got the tools to do the job. 

 

For bread and butter lifts, look for clear pine shelving at the big box stores. You can probably find nominal 1"x8"x48" pretty easily. Be creative. Look around. If you have to, sort through the piles of fence boards until you find some good clear ones, or ones with knots that you can work around. If you can find a pallet or two with wood that's easy enough to work, You should have no problem disassembling a pallet and getting wood for a bread and butter hull. (Keep in mind, oak may be too tough to whittle easily.) While used furniture is usually too nice to use for bread and butter lifts, it can be a good source of modeling wood. I've got a couple of leaves from old dining room tables I found at the dumps that look to be fine old mahogany like you can't get anymore. I suppose I'll find a use for it one of these days. I also have a 2"x6"x8 foot piece of old Burmese teak in my wood stash. I snagged that from the boatyard dumpster. My wife asks why I have all this old wood stored in my workshop. She just doesn't get it.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Edwardkenway]

Certainly, if one has access to a large bench saw and thickness planer, timber can be found by contacting a tree surgeon in ones area, who more often than not, are more than willing to give you wood. Also local timber yards stock clearish constructional timber in various lengths, thicknesses and widths for a fraction of the price of PAR/PSE wood eg £3.50 for 6ft of 4x2 spruce. In my own case I have carpenter/ joiner acquaintances withe the right kit, if or when I need.

[GrandpaPhil]

Do you have a Wickes near you?

 

It looks like the UK version of Lowes.

 

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Redwood-PSE-Timber---20-5-x-144-x-2400mm/p/9000263476

 

If so, check that out.

 

That is about the size of a 1x6 and comes in 2 meter lengths.

 

A four pack is 50£

 

Wickes looks like they have reasonable 2x6’s too.

 

And, if you buy so many, apparently they deliver.

 

Just make sure you pick your own boards.  In the US, sometimes they are warped, so you have to check and make sure they are straight.

 

One of my model building secrets is that I get the vast majority of my supplies from craft stores and hardware stores.

Edited March 20, 2023 by GrandpaPhil

[Riotvan88]

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions. In the end I built it using cheap ply using the method I've used previously in kits. Progress as of one week. 

 

 

However my next build is already planned (schooner Argus from Sarik hobbies) for that I'll use bread and butter method since as many of have noted Wickes appears to have reasonably priced pine. 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Riotvan88