Kauz Posted January 16 Share #31 Posted January 16 On 11/26/2023 at 9:54 PM, thibaultron said: I "finished" the Spanish 12 pounder 1718 Pattern, with the scroll on the barrel. The direct translation is "The King's Wife has been violated", at least through Google Translate. Actually, it translates as: "thunderbolts of the (an) insulted king". Seems Google mistook "fulmina" for "femina", the latter meaning "woman". 😉 thibaultron 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 16 Author Share #32 Posted January 16 3 hours ago, Kauz said: Actually, it translates as: "thunderbolts of the (an) insulted king". Seems Google mistook "fulmina" for "femina", the latter meaning "woman". 😉 Than Thanks for the correction! Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 16 Author Share #33 Posted January 16 16 hours ago, allanyed said: I know very well the work that you have done and the willingness to share with the members is stupendous. I think the fifteen shown above are more than anyone else has offered in any pattern, let alone just one pattern. If others feel we need additional calibers/lengths, it would be great to see them provide them to the membership as you are doing. The more the better. You mentioned the differences in the Armstrong and Armstrong Frederick, members should know that you also changed the badge to George 3 on the AF pattern compared to George 2 on the Armstrong pattern as it should be. Allan I went htrough the Fredrick cannon specifications I found online, and determined that once a specific size cannon was drawn, say one length of 6 Pounder, the diameters of the various sections of the other 6 Pounders were all the same. The lengths of the sections (First Reinforce, Second Reinforce, etc.) were then changed to a fixed proportion of the barrel length. I am in the process of drawing the "missing" cannon lengths for the Fredricks. If anyone can verify the available sizes of the Armstrongs, I will fill those in also. The diameters were also not directly proportional between say a 42 Pounder and a 12 Pounder, there were "Fudge Factors" for some of them. For example the specification for one diameter is listed as 36 units for all cannon sizes in the text, but then a chart is provided that gives a different number of units for that value, depending on the Poundage of the cannon. For example the units for the 42 Pounder is 32 rather than 36, for that value. I will be going through all the cannon sizes and checking the drawings against this spec, and getting them as close to this spec as reasonably possible. allanyed 1 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 18 Author Share #34 Posted January 18 I finished redrawing the Armstong-Fredrick pattern cannons, using the specifications I found on the Web. They had pixilated drawings on the site and I used those to double check the results. The cannons now provide files for all the 3 Pounder to 42 Pounder cannons listed. There were additional sizes shown on the original drawing I used, so I've left them in this set. Over the next few days, I will generate the 3D files for all the cannons. The measurement shown in the graphic labels are the barrel length, not the overall length. albert 1 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 18 Author Share #35 Posted January 18 Here is a chart of the Fredrick Cannons that will be available: The Orange blocks are cannons listed in the 1760 list, the Blue are those added in 1764, The Red are cannons that were shown in the drawing I used. This chart is from the Web Site I found. I will make a similar chart for the Armstrongs listed in an earlier posting in this thread. The Armstrongs will be the same cannon designs, but with a touch hole, rather than a flash pan. albert, allanyed and Seventynet 3 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 26 Author Share #36 Posted January 26 I've finished redrawing the Armstrong and Armstrong-Fredricks cannons, basing them on the breach diameter and length specifications at the Web Site: https://www.arc.id.au/ArmstrongPattern.html I used my existing drawings and scaled them accordingly. This is the last round, and I drew all the sizes shown in the chart for the Fredricks, and the sizes of Armstrongs listed by Lieste in a previous post. Below are the two charts, the graphics and STL files will follow in subsequent posts. mtaylor 1 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 26 Author Share #37 Posted January 26 Armstrong Cannon Graphics - Part 1. I added the barrel lengths to the graphics, and converted them the black and white, so the dimensions showed better. 3 Pounder 54 4 Pounder 60 4 Pounder 72 6 Pounder 72 6 Pounder 78 6 Pounder 84 6 Pounder 90 6 Pounder 96 6 Pounder 102 9 Pounder 84 9 Pounder 90 9 Pounder 102 9 Pounder 108 12 Pounder 90 12 Pounder 102 12 Pounder 108 Seventynet, allanyed, scrubbyj427 and 1 other 3 1 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 26 Author Share #38 Posted January 26 Armstrong Cannon Graphics - Part 1. 18 Pounder 96 18 Pounder 108 24 Pounder 108 24 Pounder 114 32 Pounder 114 32 Pounder 120 42 Pounder 114 42 Pounder 120 mtaylor, Thukydides, oakheart and 2 others 4 1 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieste Posted January 26 Share #39 Posted January 26 The proportion at the sond of the bore (and to the surface at the bore end) 42 pdr 32/32 32pdr 34/32 24pdr 36/32 18pdr 38/32 12pdr 40/32 9pdr 42/32 All smaller 44/32 The reinforce is then increasing in the same pattern from 27/32 in 1/32 increments, and the 'neck' at the muzzle astragal from 18/32 in 1/32 increments. The instructions for proportions are given for a 24pdr, and you should replace the proportion of 36/32, 29/32 and 20/32 for those three landmarks with the scale suitable to the calibre. thibaultron and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted January 26 Share #40 Posted January 26 32 minutes ago, Lieste said: The instructions for proportions are given for a 24pdr, and you should replace the proportion of 36/32, 29/32 and 20/32 for those three landmarks with the scale suitable to the calibre. Hi Lieste Can you share where these instructions can be found? Are they based on contemporary sources? 32 minutes ago, Lieste said: The proportion at the sond of the bore (and to the surface at the bore end) I may be the only one not understanding what you are implying, but if you can you please post drawings of each (as Ron has done for all of us) to show what you mean, it would be appreciated. Many thanks Allan mtaylor and thibaultron 2 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieste Posted January 26 Share #41 Posted January 26 The thickness of the metal in the breech is taken from the sond of the bore to the rear of the breech ring (The breechface and cascable are additional). At right angles to the bore the thickness of metal is the 'breech' proportion at the position of the sond. The 'base height' of the metal at the rear of the breech ring is enlarged from this land-mark by the line of metal of the reinforce, and a shorter gun 'comes out' slightly taller. The actual surface of the metal takes an angle after allowing for the 'step' of the first reinforce, as it is the height of the 'surface' under the second reinforce moulding. I have the general principle in memory, but not the details, which I have in a spreadsheet which will generate the elevation of any arbitrary Armstrong Frederick Pattern Gun (and with a change to the ventfield the Armstrong ones (in Iron).. the rules and proportions are different for gun metal and I haven't teased the necessary adjustments to fair lines by calculation rather than construction and inspection... There are some awkward linked calculations for the A-F pattern, especially in the mouldings, the muzzle swell and the cascable and button to get clean tangent joins between the two portions, that can be found trivially within a CAD program such as FreeCAD using a sketch with constraints for each construction line and segment of the surface. This is the same definition of 'thickness at the breech' as defined in e.g the Manson pattern 1786 naval guns, though of course the details of proportion and moulding aren't generally the same. thibaultron and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 26 Author Share #42 Posted January 26 Those are the factoes I used when following the spec on the site I listed. mtaylor 1 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 26 Author Share #43 Posted January 26 Armstrong STL files Part 1 Armstrong Pattern 3 Pounder 54 Full Size_1542_39mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 4 Pounder 60 Full Size_1713_71mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 4 Pounder 72 Full Size_2056_47mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 6 Pounder 72 Full Size_2056_47mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 6 Pounder 78 Full Size_2227_92mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 6 Pounder 84 Full Size_2399_24mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 6 Pounder 90 Full Size_2570_56mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 6 Pounder 96 Full Size_2742_01mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 6 Pounder 102 Full Size_2913_33mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 9 Pounder 84 Full Size_2368_81mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 9 Pounder 90 Full Size_2538_15mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 9 Pounder 102 Full Size_2876_55mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 9 Pounder 108 Full Size_3045_75mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 12 Pounder 90 Full Size_2550_32mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 12 Pounder 102 Full Size_2890_31mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 12 Pounder 108 Full Size_3060_30mm.stl Seventynet and mtaylor 2 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 26 Author Share #44 Posted January 26 Armstrong STL files Part 1 Armstrong Pattern 18 Pounder 96 Full Size_2755_24mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 18 Pounder 108 Full Size_3100_23mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 24 Pounder 108 Full Size_3080_94mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 24 Pounder 114 Full Size_3252_13mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 32 Pounder 114 Full Size_3252_13mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 32 Pounder 120 Full Size_3423_31mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 42 Pounder 114 Full Size_3234_00mm.stl Armstrong Pattern 42 Pounder 120 Full Size_3404_26mm.stl Seventynet and mtaylor 2 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted January 26 Share #45 Posted January 26 Hi Lieste Sorry to repeat, but can you share where these instructions can be found and post drawings to help understand. For example, I cannot find what a sond is in relation to a cannon barrel anywhere on the internet, so far, or how Bavarian guns that you mention relate to AFs. Many thanks for your help and input. Allan thibaultron 1 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieste Posted January 26 Share #46 Posted January 26 The bore is the hollow, the sond of the bore is the deepest part of that hollow (a flat covering 11/12th of the bore radius in A/AF pattern, or the middle of a shallow ellipsoid in Blomefield and later pattern guns - according to Boxer at least - Some, such as carronades would have a deeper curve - in this case a hemisphere occupying half the typical nominal chamber length, with 'zero' length behind the sond (aside from the cascabel and breech face)). Manson pattern guns are well documented - they are the French 1786 pattern naval iron guns - and while they have no direct commonality to any British pattern... however they do share a general definition of *how* the thickness at the breech, and of the wall at the sond are defined (they are equal and based on a specified proportion of the bore, which can be modified by calibre). mtaylor and thibaultron 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 27 Author Share #47 Posted January 27 The Armstrong-Fredricks Cannon Graphics - Part 1 3 Pounder 54 4 Pounder 66 4 Pounder - 72 6 Pounder 72 6 Pounder 78 6 Pounder 84 6 pounder 90 8 Pounder 96 6 pounder 102 6 Pounder 108 9 Pounder 84 9 Pounder 90 9 Pounder 96 9 Pounder 102 9 Pounder 108 12 Pounder 90 mtaylor and Seventynet 2 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 27 Author Share #48 Posted January 27 The Armstrong-Fredricks Cannon Graphics - Part 2 12 Pounder 102 12 Pounder 108 18 Pounder 108 24 pounder 108 24 Pounder 114 32 Pounder 114 32 Pounder 120 42 Pounder 114 42 Pounder 120 mtaylor and Seventynet 2 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted January 27 Share #49 Posted January 27 (edited) On 1/26/2024 at 4:42 PM, Lieste said: The bore is the hollow, the sond of the bore is the deepest part of that hollow (a flat covering 11/12th of the bore radius in A/AF pattern, or the middle of a shallow ellipsoid in Blomefield and later pattern guns - according to Boxer at least - Some, such as carronades would have a deeper curve - in this case a hemisphere occupying half the typical nominal chamber length, with 'zero' length behind the sond (aside from the cascabel and breech face)). Drawings please. It is far easier for some of us to understand the designs you are describing with drawings like the fantastic drawings that Ron has posted rather than using words only. Thanks again for your input. 😀 Allan Edited January 28 by allanyed Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 27 Author Share #50 Posted January 27 The Armstrong-Fredricks Cannon STLs - Part 1 Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 3 Pounder 54 Full Size_1542_39mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 4 Pounder 66 Full Size_1885_16mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 4 Pounder 72 Full Size_2056_47mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 6 Pounder 72 Full Size_2056_47mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 6 Pounder 78 Full Size_2227_92mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 6 Pounder 84 Full Size_2399_24mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 6 Pounder 90 Full Size_2570_56mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 6 Pounder 96 Full Size_2742_01mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 6 Pounder 102 Full Size_2913_33mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 6 Pounder 108 Full Size_3084_78mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 9 Pounder 84 Full Size_2368_81mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 9 Pounder 90 Full Size_2538_15mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 9 Pounder 96 Full Size_2707_35mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 9 Pounder 102 Full Size_2876_55mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 9 Pounder 108 Full Size_3045_75mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 12 Pounder 90 Full Size_2550_32mm.stl mtaylor, allanyed and Seventynet 3 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 27 Author Share #51 Posted January 27 The Armstrong-Fredricks Cannon STLs - Part 2 Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 12 Pounder 102 Full Size_2890_31mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 12 Pounder 108 Full Size_3060_30mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 18 Pounder 108 Full Size_3099_59mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 24 Pounder 108 Full Size_3080_94mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 24 Pounder 114 Full Size_3252_13mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 32 Pounder 114 Full Size_3252_13mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 32 Pounder 120 Full Size_3423_31mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 42 Pounder 114 Full Size_3234_00mm.stl Armstrong Fredrick Pattern 42 Pounder 120_Full Size_3404_26mm.stl mtaylor, Seventynet and allanyed 3 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 27 Author Share #52 Posted January 27 Spanish Cannons 1718 Pattern Graphics. I did not include the barrel length, as I only had drawings for one of each size. The Royal scroll and the cannon name scroll are on the barrel, but I will admit that the cannon name is the same for each STL, rather than individual names, as on the real cannon. I could only find one good photograph or drawing of this feature to trace. Yes the larger size cannons did not have the box structure at the trunions. No, I have no idea why. The handles are my best attempt at a Sea Monster motif. 5 Pounder 9 Pounder 12 Pounder 16 Pounder 24 Pounder Seventynet, mtaylor and allanyed 3 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 27 Author Share #53 Posted January 27 Spanish Cannons 1718 Pattern STLs . Spanish 5 Pounder Cannon 1718 Pattern Full Size_1642_27mm.stl Spanish 9 Pounder Cannon 1718 Pattern Full Size_1880_92mm.stl Spanish 12 Pounder Cannon 1718 Pattern Full Size_2214_83mm.stl Spanish 16 Pounder Cannon 1718 Pattern Full Size_3009_77mm.stl Spanish 24 Pounder Cannon 1718 Pattern Full Size_3353_46mm.stl Seventynet, mtaylor, catopower and 1 other 4 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 27 Author Share #54 Posted January 27 I will be posting the Blomefield Cannons later today, or tomorrow. I have to create the Brown Pattern Cannon graphics, so they will be posted later this week, the STL files are finished. mtaylor 1 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 27 Author Share #55 Posted January 27 (edited) OK, the NRG class today starts an hour later than I thought, so here is the Blomefield info. These are the only sizes I had drawings for. Blomefield Pattern about 1787 Graphics 6 Pounder 84 6 Pounder 90 6 Pounder 102 9 Pounder 90 9 Pounder 102 9 Pounder 108 12 Pounder 90 12 Pounder 102 12 Pounder 108 18 Pounder 108 18 Ponder 114 24 Pounder 108 24 Pounder 114 32 Pounder 114 Edited January 27 by thibaultron mtaylor, myMADNESS78, catopower and 1 other 4 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thibaultron Posted January 27 Author Share #56 Posted January 27 Blomefield Pattern about 1787 STL Files Blomefield Pattern 6 Pounder 84 1_24 Size_99_39mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 6 Pounder 90 Full Size_2554_42mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 6 Pounder 102 Full Size_2873_90mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 9 Pounder 90 Full Size_2413_63mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 9 Pounder 102 Full Size_2873_90mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 9 Pounder 108 Full Size_3031_86mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 12 Pounder 90 Full Size_2553_49mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 12 Pounder 102 Full Size_2873_90mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 18 Pounder 108 Full Size_3031_86mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 18 Pounder 114 Full Size_3183_60mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 24 Pounder 108 Full Size_3031_86mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 24 Pounder 114 Full Size_3183_60mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 32 Pounder 114 Size_3183_47mm.stl Blomefield Pattern 12 Pounder 108 Full Size_3031_86mm.stl Seventynet, CDR_Ret, allanyed and 3 others 6 Quote Ron Thibault Shipjack Carrie Price from Pyro kit, with upgraded detailing and history. Going From A 2D Drawing To A 3D Printed Part Tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srenner Posted February 6 Share #57 Posted February 6 (edited) Hi... do you have an stl of a british 18 pounder long gun circa 1720? I can do my own Cypher but just want the basic shape. Thanks Edited February 6 by Srenner Egilman, thibaultron and mtaylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted February 6 Share #58 Posted February 6 Hi Srenner, Is this for your Greyhound (20) 1720 build? Allan thibaultron, Egilman and mtaylor 3 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srenner Posted February 6 Share #59 Posted February 6 (edited) Yes... just replacing the in accurate metal barrels given by the kit Even just a drawing would help Edited February 6 by Srenner thibaultron, mtaylor and Egilman 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieste Posted February 6 Share #60 Posted February 6 Armstrong was rolled out from 1724 - Borgard patterns would have been current in 1716, and continued for a long time after, but the presence of an Armstrong set on a 'later' vessel of the class isn't impossible. There might also have been 'pre-pattern' contract guns still in service, with each built to a contract length and weight, but with the choice of form and moulding left to the individual gunsmith. There is a table of dimension and diagram on P92 of "The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War, 1600-1815", from notes taken from a Library book long since returned. I have (somewhere) the table of dimensions and some brief notes on the landmarks, but I didn't have the ability to copy the diagram at the time - from memory they look superficially like an Armstrong, but a bit more noticeably fatter going from second reinforce to first towards the breech, and the button appears somewhat smaller and without the astragal of the button. From a few feet away Armstrong patterns might be indistinguishable at smaller scales, though there is a difference in the proportion of the first reinforce which would be noticeable with one of each next to each other of the same length and calibre. thibaultron, Egilman and mtaylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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