Did lateen masts have wedges?

[knightyo]

In general, would ships rigged with lateen sails have wedges around the masts, or were those not usually used on fore-aft rigged ships?  I'm referring more to the types of wedges which extend up pretty far out of the deck around the mast.

 

Alan

Edited April 20, 2023 by knightyo

[allanyed]

15 minutes ago, knightyo said:

lateen sails have wedges around the masts, or were those primarily used for fore-aft rigged ships?

Maybe I am missing something, but I thought lateen sails were fore and aft rigged.  Regardless, if a mast passes through partners where it pierces a deck, wedges would work.  Mizzen masts on contemporary models that carried a lateen have wedges.   Small craft may be a different story where something like the half hoop steadies a mast against a thwart.

Allan

[knightyo]

Just now, allanyed said:

Maybe I am missing something, but I thought lateen sails were fore and aft rigged.  Regardless, if a mast passes through partners where it pierces a deck, wedges would work.  Mizzen masts on contemporary models that carried a lateen have wedges.   Small craft may be a different story where something like the half hoop steadies a mast against a thwart.

Allan

Whoops.... You aren't missing anything at all. I totally worded my question wrong, and will go back and fix.     Thank you for your response tho!  I'm building a 1490's Spanish Caravel, and intending to portray the ship with lateen sails, but just wasn't sure about the wedges around the mast(s).

 

Alan

[allanyed]

Alan,  If I had a dollar for every typo or rushed response with a mistake I would be living on the beach in Wailea.

Allan

[Jaager]

3 hours ago, knightyo said:

just wasn't sure about the wedges around the mast(s).

Even if the wedges were not used to fix the rake of the mast - and I cannot imagine allowing a mast to careen around at the partners,  unless the crew wanted to take showers at the masts on the lower deck(s), something like wedges would be needed to stop rain water or seawater overwash from flooding at the mast-deck gap.  Tightly bound tarred canvas is what I understand covered the wedges on the weather exposed decks.  

Thinking about it, on multi-decked ships, wedges with no covering in place on every deck would serve to spread out the point of force transfer from the spars to the hull.

[knightyo]

2 hours ago, Jaager said:

Even if the wedges were not used to fix the rake of the mast - and I cannot imagine allowing a mast to careen around at the partners,  unless the crew wanted to take showers at the masts on the lower deck(s), something like wedges would be needed to stop rain water or seawater overwash from flooding at the mast-deck gap.  Tightly bound tarred canvas is what I understand covered the wedges on the weather exposed decks.  

Thinking about it, on multi-decked ships, wedges with no covering in place on every deck would serve to spread out the point of force transfer from the spars to the hull.

Thanks Jaager,

 

Below are the types of wedges (now that I think about it, I might be using the wrong term) that I'm referring to.   I'm creating a replica of the Nina, except as she was when she still had lateen sails.  And now I'll reveal the true nature of my question.   I fouled up the mainmast while shaping it; it is a perfect cylinder, but too thin at the base!  I was thinking that I could hide my error (and making the mast stronger) by incorporating the wedges around the mast as in the below photo to hide the fact of it being a little skinny at the bottom, but wasn't sure if that would be appropriate to do for a mast with lateen sails.   

 

 

 

 

 

[Louie da fly]

Yes, have a look at these pictures. I'm pretty certain these things around the masts are early wedges. From the Cantigas de Santa Maria - Spanish, late 12th century.

 

And yes, these are lateeners.

 

Steven

[knightyo]

That's exactly what I needed to see, Steven.  Thank you

 

Alan

[Louie da fly]

Te trouble is that most artists don't bother to show details like wedges. This one is unusual in that. And there's the fact that most pictures of ships aren't from a viewpoint that shows the bottoms of the masts.

 

The pic below is from Botticelli's Judgment of Paris - unfortunately it loses definition when you blow it up, but it might depict wedges around the mizzen.

As might this one - 1500 approx. by Octavian de Saint Gelais, France. Probably from his translation of the Ovid.

This one (source unknown) seems to show wedges, but that's on the main mast - unfortunately you can't see the base of the mizzen.

 

Best I could do. On the other hand if you put wedges in nobody will be in a position to tell you that you're wrong!

 

Steven

[Bob Cleek]

7 hours ago, knightyo said:

Thanks Jaager,

 

Below are the types of wedges (now that I think about it, I might be using the wrong term) that I'm referring to.   I'm creating a replica of the Nina, except as she was when she still had lateen sails.  And now I'll reveal the true nature of my question.   I fouled up the mainmast while shaping it; it is a perfect cylinder, but too thin at the base!  I was thinking that I could hide my error (and making the mast stronger) by incorporating the wedges around the mast as in the below photo to hide the fact of it being a little skinny at the bottom, but wasn't sure if that would be appropriate to do for a mast with lateen sails.   

 

 

 

 

 

I've had a good look at that vessel in the flesh, as it were, an while I am not any sort of expert on that period, I'd caution against relying upon it for much of any sort of historically accurate data. Those aren't wedges. I can't tell exactly what they are, but it appears they are simply laminated planks used to build up the mast. 

[knightyo]

Thanks Steven, and as you say, it will be hard to prove I've done wrong if installing these, due to the scarcity of reference material!  I'm pretty sure if the original Nina suddenly appeared, a viewer would just laugh comparing my version to the original. 

 

I also agree with you Bob, in that this vessel probably shouldn't be relied upon as a historically accurate example.  I've already made a few decisions/guesses on my model which I'm pretty sure would be frowned upon by a researcher in the field. I might incorporate the look as below.  This (Santa Maria) is from the cover of the Anatomy of the Ship's series "The ships of Christopher Columbus".   However.....  In the same book, is the 2nd photo below, which is a model of the Nina built by a researcher, which shows "bare" masts, which made me wonder if the lateen rigged Nina didn't have these reinforcements at the bottom, whereas the larger Santa Maria did have them.  (Perhaps since the Nina was a smaller vessel lateen-rigged and originally used up and down the coasts of Mediterranean, reinforced masts weren't necessary?)  Or if it was just a matter of the researchers taste, not to add them.  I admit that the mast without the reinforcements/wedges looks a little more elegant.

Alan

 

[wefalck]

One would need to dive down into the archaeology literature to find an answer to the question  - if there is any.

 

There are two related questions: what is actually the construction of the ship and against which constructional elements would the mast rest? 

 

In wooden ship-building there seem to be three principal methods: 1) a simple socket into which a tenon at the end of the mast fits; 2) a mast-stool (i.e. two stout pieces of wood between which the mast is pivoted and locked); 3) a socket and chocks between deck-beams (this is were usually the wedges are used: to secure the mast in these chocks). A variant of the stool is used on Arab craft, where there is a short 'stump' securely fastened to the structure of the ship to which the mast is lashed.

 

As to the pictures with the very long 'wedges': I have my doubts that these are wedges. How would you hammer them down, when their top edge is a couple of metres above the deck? I have the suspicion that they serve to stiffen the lower mast and prevent the wood from splitting.