Madrague de Giens by woodrat - 1/25 - A large roman merchantman of first century BCE - Cross-section

[woodrat]

I have commenced researching this famous roman shipwreck. It was discovered off the coast of Toulon in 1967 at a depth of about 20 metres. The hull was largely intact, sufficiently so for reasonably reliable reconstruction to be made of its lines. It appears to be a very large merchantman of about 400 tons with a length of about 40 metres. At the time of its demise in the middle of the first century BCE it was carrying a cargo of wine in amphorae and glazed pottery. The cargo has protected the hull timbers.  Excavations led by Andre Tchernia and later by Patrice Pomey of the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique have revealed one the best preserved shipwrecks of the ancient mediterranean world and have made it a suitable subject for a detailed model. I hope to proceed much along the same method as I used for my venetian round ship reconstruction. Wish me luck!

Cheers

Dick

[Louie da fly]

Oh, yes! Looking forward to Woodrat's magic on yet another amazing build.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

The more deeply I delve into this , the tougher it gets. Not only was the original Roman vessel built shell-first but it was double planked externally. The framing was inserted after the completion of the shell. As to the hull shape, this has been a matter of academic spleen since it was excavated and remains controversial. Millenia on the sea bed with hundreds of amphorae pressing down have provided some interesting distortions I'm sure.

Even so, below the turn of the bilge there was good preservation and the backbone is all there.

 

So it seems that I should start with the quite complicated keel and stern post. Did the romans use any moulds to aid their planking, I dont know. Your guess is as good as mine.

Cheers

Dick

[Ferrus Manus]

What i find interesting is that this is probably the same type of ship that St. Paul would have traveled to Rome on. Granted, that ship would have been constructed in the first century AD. 

[Ferrus Manus]

How would you possibly be able to construct a shell-first carvel-built ship? At least with clinker-built ships, the overlap of the planks provides a general direction for where the planks should go. 

[davyboy]

7 hours ago, Ferrus Manus said:

How would you possibly be able to construct a shell-first carvel-built ship? At least with clinker-built ships, the overlap of the planks provides a general direction for where the planks should go. 

 

7 hours ago, Ferrus Manus said:

How would you possibly be able to construct a shell-first carvel-built ship? At least with clinker-built ships, the overlap of the planks provides a general direction for where the planks should go. 

It was done by the Dutch on a regular basis. There was a build by a Belgian (?) member doing it this way on MSW 1 back in the day.. There is also currently a build doing this in the Ships of Scale forum successfully it would appear.

 

Dave 

[woodrat]

44 minutes ago, davyboy said:

How would you possibly be able to construct a shell-first carvel-built ship? At least with clinker-built ships, the overlap of the planks provides a general direction for where the planks should go. 

I should refer you to my recent build of a mycenaean galley (link below) built shell first and carvel as was the Uluburun ship. And this was in the Bronze Age!

There is nothing new under the sun!

Dick

[davyboy]

Dick,you missed out what I wrote,I was replying to Ferrus Manus's comment there. Sorry I didn't mention your build. As you say there is nothing new under the sun.

 

Dave 

[Ferrus Manus]

Perhaps those were the same type of ships that bore the Sea Peoples to the Late Bronze Age Eastern Mediterranean, and the rest is history. 

[Louie da fly]

There's a reasonably good video of the building of the reconstruction of Jason's "Argo" in Greece at 

 

 

 

There was a better one on Youtube, but I can't find it. The good stuff begins abut 8:20.

On 10/26/2023 at 4:29 AM, Ferrus Manus said:

Perhaps those were the same type of ships that bore the Sea Peoples to the Late Bronze Age Eastern Mediterranean, and the rest is history. 

This is a Roman merchant ship of the First century C.E. The Sea People were active 800-1100 years prior. There's a contemporary Egyptian bas-relief showing their vessels, and a a good line drawing copy of that can be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#/media/File:Medinet_Habu_Ramses_III._Tempel_Nordostwand_Abzeichnung_01.jpg

 

Dick, I seem to recall reading some years ago that amphorae were stored in ships' holds in a layer of sand. That makes sense - shoving the pointy ends into the sand would keep them upright. After the bottom layer of amphorae, I suppose it would have been a bit like playing Tetris - an experienced supercargo should have been able to do that efficiently. But that's beside the point when we're talking about the effect of all that weight in distorting the hull of the wrecked ship.

 

Steven

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Louie da fly

[Ferrus Manus]

I was talking about his Mycenaean Galley.

[Louie da fly]

Ah. Maybe you need to be a bit more specific, mate.

 

Steven

Edited October 28, 2023 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

There are many constructional peculiarities in this vessel which make it differ from later vessels. Having just had 3 weeks travelling I have had time to think. I have concluded that, in order to understand and demonstrate these peculiarities, it would be advantageous to construct a cross-sectional model. Otherwise it would just be another roman ship model. There is enough excellent excavation data to allow this.

Dick

[Louie da fly]

Sounds good. This kind of information is usually confined to archaeologists - to see it in a model would be of great value.

 

Steven

[Ferrus Manus]

Ah! That seems to be your M.O. with theoretical reconstructions, isn't it? 

[woodrat]

In this case I am standing on the shoulders of several decades of meticulous excavation and documentation by french archaeologists and aided by photogrammetric reconstructions to enable a credible idea of the hull shape.I claim no originality but am just doing a model in wood of what has already been done virtually.

Laetitia Cavassa,PierrePoveda,VincentDumas,NinonBasuau,PhilippeSoubias.TheMadraguede
Giens ship:Aphotogrammetryfromthepast:Completingthestudyofanexceptionalromanwreck.
Under theMediterraneanII,UniversityofMalta;HonorFrostFoundation,Nov2022,LaValette,
Malta. halshs-04015726

 

Dick

[woodrat]

I have received some more detailed drawings by kind courtesy of Dr Pierre Poveda .

The drawings are extracted from M. Rival : La Charpenterie Navale Romaine

The following are excavated sections of the vessels bottom

Further detail of the keel showing the double planking and floors

For an idea of what the ship lloked like, it is thought that this mosaic of a very similar merchantman from Themetra in Tunisia is as good as it gets,

Cheers

Dick

Edited November 17, 2023 by woodrat

[woodrat]

I have knocked up a mid hull mould to which the keel section will attached. This will also incorporate the mast-step eventually.

Dick

[Louie da fly]

Very impressive! It wasn't till I saw that photo that the 1:25 scale sank in . . .

 

Where do you find the room for all these models?

 

Steven

[woodrat]

7 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Where do you find the room for all these models?

Where else? Straight to the Pool Room!

[Louie da fly]

Is that where you keep the jousting sticks?

 

Steven

[woodrat]

13 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Is that where you keep the jousting sticks?

Bit unfair to non Aussies. We are referencing an obscure but iconic australian comedy movie called "The Castle". It's mostly about the Vibe.

The next step is to carve the rabbet for the garboard strake. But the garboard is not a simple plank, it's a carved polygonal plank and is vital for producing the "wine-glass shape of the hellenistic merchantmen.

image from sketchfab

Dick

[Louie da fly]

6 hours ago, woodrat said:

Bit unfair to non Aussies.

Yes, I could have explained it in my previous post, but it was more fun to keep them in suspenders for awhile . . .

 

Steven

[woodrat]

Keel and garboard strake in place

Dick

[woodrat]

A closeup of the keel section, showing the two keel rabbets. The outer rabbet is for the thinner sacrificial outer planking, The inner is for the thicker inner strakes.

 

Dick

 

[Louie da fly]

Beautiful work, Dick. Is that timber jarrah?

 

Steven

[woodrat]

19 minutes ago, Louie da fly said:

Is that timber jarrah?

The keel is jarrah. The planking is a hardwood and I think its meranti.

Here is the first attempt at mortice and tenon

Pine tenons.

I have fixed all planks with mortice amd tenonand will peg them later. Pegged mortice and tenon carvel planking had been in use in the Mediterranean since the Bronze Age (see jmy mycenaean war galley build).

[Louie da fly]

This level of detail helps me understand why you chose such a large scale. Nice work, Dick.

 

Steven

Edited November 27, 2023 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

16 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

This level of detail helps me understand why you chose such a large scale

To drill out the mortices you have to have a decent width of plank or you cant do it. Hence the large scale. This next is from my mycenaean build and I used a jig to do the mortices. But now I do them freehand. I can see why slaves were so prized in the ancient world. This type of repetitive, boring job would be given to them. Also the making of pegs.🥱

Cheers

Dick

[Boccherini]

Dick,

no different to making your own blocks and deadeyes. Sometimes this hobby has it's times of "patient endurance". Builds character I'm told.

 

Regards,

Grant.