Tool Rest Question

[wefalck]

There are two elements to engage the backgear:

 

- there is a pin or other type of lock that engages the small gear on the spindle, which has the pulleys permanently coupled to it, with the large gear on the spindle; in this situation the lathe spindle is driven directly.

- if the rear gear/pulley is not locked to the large gear, it idles on the spindle; the ball-handle lever on the backgear spindle works on excentric bearings, which allow the backgears to swing into mesh with the gears on the lathe-spindle.

 

If you lock the gears on the main spindle and swing the back backgear into mesh, the whole system is locked. When you then start the motor, either the belt will slip on the pulleys or it may sheer-off the locking pin. If you suspect the latter is the case, you have to dissamble the whole headstock and drill out the remains of the pin.

 

I have taken anything with Babbitt-bearings apart, so I wouldn't know, how to deal with them. I am sure you can find some advice for this on the Web. Normally, there would be a nut on the back of the spindle and a corresponding lock-nut, most likely to be worked with a C-spanner. These serve to adjust the end-play. If you take out the nuts, you can pull out the spindle to the front. There would also be a grub screw to loosen that locks the large gear onto the spindle.

[NavyShooter]

I've owned a number of lathes over the years.  Unimat, Sherline, South Bend, Precision Matthews.  I've used Standard Modern at work. 

 

There is the basic underlying question for you to consider here.

Are you planning to work on your lathe, or do work with your lathe?

 

I built a functional firearm with my Sherline a few years ago.  (3 meetings with the Chief Provincial Firearms Officer, registrations, license checks, etc.  LEGALLY DONE.)

 

It took me almost 50 hours of machine time to make the bolt with the Sherline.  I bought that lathe for probably $500 off e-pay, ordered new parts to expand the capability and size, make it capable of milling, drilling, and so on.  And it was still a tiny little lathe/mill combo that while modular, was not rigid enough to do actual machine work effectively.  

 

So.  I upgraded from that to a SB 10K lathe that I bought out of an old technical high school.  It was great - but it needed a lot of work.  It came with a 3 jaw chuck and after 35 years in a school, it was worn beyond repair in the first 6 inches of the bed.  I put a lot of work into trying to fix it up, new parts, repairs, etc, but in the end, the bed wear and damage was impacting my tolerances too much. 

 

I have since upgraded from that to a newer Precision Matthews of similar footprint.  (10x30) 

 

I haven't had to make a single part for the PM.  I have used it to MAKE parts for other projects.  

 

I will suggest that the lathe you have (Atlas/Craftsman) is great for you to repurpose into a wood working lathe.  But, if you find yourself needing to do actual precision machining, you might find yourself having to throw a lot of money at repairs, particularly if you have issues in the headstock or bed wear.  

 

Do a cost analysis of what you're going to spend to get this one running and doing what you want with it before you get yourself too deep.

 

I will observe that when threading, I do miss the Quick Change gear box on my SB.  My PM does not have that. I have to deal with manual change gears.

 

Last observation - what is the largest size item you are considering working on with your lathe?  Are you going to do a prop shaft?  Are you going to do a rifle barrel?  Are you going to be doing a ship's mast?  How big a lathe do you NEED to have for your planned projects.  That's a big factor.  I got a lathe a bit bigger than the maximum I thought I'd go, and I'm happy I did.  It's let me do slightly larger projects (Tripod legs, etc) that I hadn't considered in my original planning stages. 

 

NS
 

[kgstakes]

Navyshooter,

 

 thank you for the advise.  Very sound advise I might add.

 

 I want to turn tiny spindles for chairs and other furniture pieces in 1/12 scale.  And maybe a pen or pencil kit.  I’d like to try turning some 1/12 or 1/8th scale wagon wheel hubs.   I’m a woodworker professionally have turned a few things on a wood lathe.  But I have this metal lathe which is workable but I think the size of it is what is hanging me up on using it more.  Maybe different attachments would I would use it more but I’ve really always wanted a watch makers lathe.  For some reason they intrigued me.  Just like the size, so I was looking at some mini lathes that I might be able to add to my mini tools that I have.

 

 Thank you for the advice and yes I will be looking at my options and what I really really want to do with a lathe and make a decision.

 

 Thanks again

[wefalck]

PS. as our posts overlapped:

 

- drill-chucks are made for drilling and do not like to take side-loads as occur in turning; they would be imprecise at least and can outright dangerous, when the loads are too high. Do not entertain this idea.

 

- in hobby-turning one would not use any cutting-oil; brass and aluminium are always turned dry and for steel nether the turning speeds nor the cutting depths would lead to so much heat generation, that cooling of the tool-tip is needed - which is the purpose of cutting fluids here, not lubrification. Cutting fluids are for production lathes. On milling machines the situation is somewhat different, here you will need lubrification for steel, but not for brass normally.

 

As to chucks: I believe there are hollow (China-made) MT2 to ERxx adapters available on ebay et al. This arrangement would be perfectly ok for working with bar-stock that passes through the whole length of the collet. If the material is shorter than say half the collet length, then there is a risk that it is being pushed out and the collet is damaged due to overtightening. If my memory serves my right, such adapters go at around 20US$ and collets, depending on size at 2 to 3 US$ a piece - I have bought such collets for use in lieu of a drill-chuck on my watchmakers lathe and as cheapo as they are, they are perfectly adequate for our needs.

4-jaw-chucks are very precise for centring material that has been already machined, but a pain to set up. You will also need a dial-indicator and stand for this. I wouldn't bother with a 4-jaw-chuck and unmachined round stock.

Remember also that unless you need to re-chuck a piece (say to work on both ends), when working from bar stock, the quality of the chuck/collet is pretty unimportant. All machined surfaces will be concentric to each other.

[kgstakes]

Appreciate the information.  Yeah like I’ve said I’ve turned on a wood lathe before (few years back) but really don’t know too much about metal lathes.  I’ll think about what I want to do but for now the lathe I had will work for turning some of the stuff I’ve tried.  Smaller lathes might suit miniature turnings better maybe not.  As you can tell still rolling things over in my head.

[bagpiperuler]

A live or dead centre allows a much easier turning operation or use a three or four jawed steady. I have an electronic control and associated motor to replace the original motor on my Myford. Speed control gives enough for wood turning on what is a metal turning lathe.

[Bob Cleek]

8 hours ago, kgstakes said:

I keep calling it a 6” lathe because that is the capability of it.  The plate says 101.07301 which does have babitt for bearings.

 

Dad always called if a 6” lathe so that’s what I’m calling it.  Since my lathe is packed away from the move to dads house I’ll try to find pictures of the head stock on line and post them here so you all can see what I’m talking about with the babitt bearing

In the United States, you have a 12" lathe. Hereabouts, lathes are described in terms of their "swing." "Swing" is the largest diameter that the lathe will hold and turn. It's not an exact measurement, but rather is usually rounded off to the nearest inch. On the other hand, if you were in the UK or Europe, lathes there are described in terms of their "centre height," this being the measurement between the ways and the center of the spindle or "half the swing." Your lathe is a 6" lathe on the other side of the Pond and a 12" lathe in the U.S. 

 

8 hours ago, kgstakes said:

I think this is the part of the lathe that needs some TLC.  Not the babitt, but the small pins inside there I've oopsed a few times and maybe broke something because it won't engage the back gears shown in the picture anymore.  The lathe pictured is again not mine.  But the overall condition is very close to the condition of the lathe I have.  Like I said previously, the lathe I have wasn't abused in anyway (just by me trying to figure things out).  And no mine does not have bearings.  So, it could be a pre war era machine, I have no idea.

The babitt bearings on the Atlas 12" lathes have shims in place which are intended to be removed over time to compensate for bearing wear. Your lathe probably doesn't have enough "miles" on it to need the babbit bearings re-poured. There are Atlas 12" instruction manuals all over the internet that you should check out, including the manuals for the older machines. See: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/  They have an active forum section on the Atlas/Craftsman lathes and seem very helpful and welcoming to novice owners of these lathes. They also have an extensive library of manuals and parts diagrams in PDF format. (I believe you have to register to download them.) 

 

The Tubal Cain / Mr.Pete222 YouTube video I posted above in post #21 shows how to engage the back gear on the Atlas 12". Watch the video. The procedure is not particularly intuitive. Pay attention to all the cautions about setting pins in the headstock gearing and how easy it is to break them if you aren't careful which he mentions in that video as well. It bears mentioning that machinists' lathes are one of the most dangerous stationary power tools of all and should not be approached by anyone who has not at least thoroughly read the operator's manual for the particular lathe they are dealing with and familiarized themselves with its operation. We all have "oops moments" now and again. The problem with a machinists' lathe of any size is that just about any "oops moment" can risk the total destruction of the lathe or its operator!

 

There are all sorts of copies of the manuals and parts lists for the Atlas Craftsman lathes.  http://vintagemachinery.org is a valuable resource. They have an extensive collection of manuals in PDF format and, as far as I know, they are accessible for downloading and printing without cost. (Many of the internet manual services charge for manual downloads.) Here's the link to download the 1937 edition of the classic Atlas Manual of Lathe Operation. (A "bible" of the trade often referred to by its initials as "MOLO.") This book tells you how to operate and maintain your Atlas/Craftsman lathe. Please read it and consult it before you have another "oops moment!"  http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/51/18169.pdf   Groups.io also has a specific Atlas/Craftsman lathe group that is worth checking out: https://groups.io/g/atlas-craftsman

 

7 hours ago, kgstakes said:

The headstock takes a #2 and the tailstock is a #1.  Really would like to find a live center for the tail stock for it.  That's the first piece I would get for my lathe is a live center.

 

I do realize that mixing metal and wood together on one lathe would be a mess if you're turning metal allot.  With all the lube you have to do for turning metal, oh yeah, turning wood would be a mess to clean up and with all the gears, threads, on a metal lathe full of cutting oil yeah I can see how everyone is saying to cover your machine up.  It would get ugly real quick.

As mentioned, it is a 12" lathe here in the U.S. Atlas also made a small 6" lathe which is a different machine. It appears that you looked up the Morse taper sizes for an Atlas 6" lathe. The 12" inch lathe takes a #3 MT in the headstock and (I presume) a #2 in the tail stock. Watch the Tubal Cain video I posted above. He goes over the 12" headstock in detail. 

 

7 hours ago, kgstakes said:

I would mainly be turning wood.  Wood spindles for chairs, staircases, columns on porches, maybe even a pen or pencil kit.  And I guess my biggest worry about the lathe I have is getting to close to the chuck.  That thing will tear you up if to get your finger or something a little to close to it when sanding a little part.

 

I would like to find a much smaller chuck maybe even a 4 jaw.  Or a 1/2" capacity drill chuck to turn stuff.

Staying clear of the chuck is a good thing!   A smaller chuck provides more room to work closer to the chuck. That said, a smaller chuck is no substitute for being careful. If you are turning wood, you don't need a chuck at all. Simply using a drive spur and live center on a suitably sized MT post and you're good to go. Wood turning is done at relatively high speeds, and you are in contact with the workpiece through the cutting tool held in your hand. Far better to avoid a chuck in any event. Moreover, a proper wood lathe chuck is a different animal from a metal lathe chuck. The wood lathe chuck generally doesn't have protruding jaws like the metal lathe chucks do so there is much less risk of contact with spinning jaws. Certainly, you can use a metal lathe chuck for turning, but it's another example of not using the right tool for the job posing certain increased risks. 

 

Wood turning chuck:

 

Spur drives and live center for wood turning:

 

Using a machinist's lathe to turn wood can be done, but if you are going to do a lot of it, I would suggest you consider getting a dedicated wood turning lathe and leave your Atlas 12" for metal and plastics work.  If one takes a pass on all the questionably necessary electronic bells and whistles, a wood turning lathe need not be expensive to acquire and there is much less need for tooling and accessories for a wood turning lathe, as well.  A little Grizzly 8"X13" tabletop "pen turner" bench top wood lathe can be had for as little as $118 if you shop around online. 8" x 13" Variable-Speed Benchtop Wood Lathe at Grizzly.com   A larger basic Grizzly 12"X18" variable speed benchtop wood lathe with drive spurs and live center can be had for less than $400 new. (For another $100, a 22" bed extension is available for it.) 10" x 18" Variable-Speed Benchtop Wood Lathe at Grizzly.com

 

Then also, small wood lathes seem to be one of those items that people buy with grand intentions and then, for whatever reason, lose interest in it. There are lots of wood lathes for sale in the local online "garage sale" sites like Craigslist. A decent used wood lathe isn't hard to come by at all and most are very reasonably priced.  The "bulletproof" full-size bench top 1950's cast iron Craftsman wood lathes are fairly plentiful and run around $100 to $300 with the sears motor. Again, in comparison to a machinists lathe, there's very little that a user can do to hurt a wood lathe. (Although the wood lathe can still do a pretty good job of hurting you!)

 

Having a dedicated wood lathe would probably make your life a whole lot less complicated.  

 

1950's cast iron wood turning lathe: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5 by Bob Cleek

[Malazan]

Does anyone make a tool rest for turning wood by hand on a Sherline lathe? i.e. with Chisels and not the cross slide 

[davec]

Looks like Sherline stopped selling them, even though they still have them in their cover image for their wood turning accessories.  Best bet would probably be to wait until a used one comes up on ebay.  Alternatively, it looks like there are some accessories for other mini lathes that might be able to be mounted in a sherline tool post:

 

https://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1685&category=

 

or cross slide t-slot:

 

https://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2949&category=

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

Sherline DOES or rather did also make a small tool rest for freehand turning of very small metal parts using tools called “gravers.”  Sherline lists this as a watchmakers tool.  It is relatively expensive, but a beautifully made tool.  It could be used for turning small wooden parts.  Check their website.

 

Roger

[kgstakes]

Don’t remember who asked but I believe my atlas craftsman lathe (101.07301) was built between 1939-1950.  As far as I can tell on the ole interweb.  
 

I’m going to look into getting it cleaned up painted and repairs done to it.

 

keep in my workshop for larger projects and keep looking and learning about smaller lathes.  Money not a problem, I got all the time in the world to save up😀😀🤪.

 

taig lathe or sherline is probably what I’ll go with for my hobby shop.

Edited January 6 by kgstakes

[NavyShooter]

BTW, here's a great little video about using a miniature lathe for parts cleanup:

 

 

[kgstakes]

Scale Model Works !!!   I've watched him a few times.  Great modeler.  Is he using a Unimat lathe?   Thanks for sharing

 

Edited January 6 by kgstakes

[kgstakes]

I know my initial question was about tool rest and we got on to my atlas craftsman lathe and the turning that I would be interested in is yes turning pens but also miniature parts for furniture.

 

 Would a small lathe be better to use in the turning of miniature parts than my craftsman lathe?

 

 See pictures of what I’m interested in turning.  The wagon hubs and patterns I’ve turned on my atlas/craftsman lathe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Twokidsnosleep]

6 hours ago, NavyShooter said:

BTW, here's a great little video about using a miniature lathe for parts cleanup:

 

 

Oh thanks for posting that video, have not seen it before.

Love Paul Budzic videos and is encouraging to see him using a lathe for parts clean up like this

We share a profession and he reminds me of some of my former professors; in both good and bad ways smidge condescending I dare say

He is an unbelievable modeller and likely dentist too

 

Anyhow, past July was my wedding anniversary (32) and I called in an IOU; she had said I could buy a shop equipment tool

It ordered a Sherline lathe.

 

I love it and have been trying to incorporate it into many areas of hobby and home repair

The first project was a complicated one to justify to my wife precisely why I needed a lathe

From there I made a brass/aluminum scriber tool

 

Then an aluminum push button replacement for a mini clamp

 

Then some Teak wood chop sticks….still a WIP

 

 

And for the Black Pearl build I plug cut and lathe shaped/smoothed deadeyes

 

 

 

 

Also for the Black Pearl I removed some mouldings on the masts with the lathe and then wound “ropes of scale” rope on them

 

 

The lathe is an absolute luxury item and I am so fortunate to be able to get one.
It needs a better designated home in my workshop(s) so I can access it easier and quicker.
Always learning curves to conquer with new equipment and machining metal is a steep but not impossible task to get decent at.

my .02 cents

 

’

Edited January 7 by Twokidsnosleep

[kgstakes]

Nice projects.  What length is the bed on your sherline?  I wouldn’t be turning any masts but just wanted to know length and was there any wobble while turning?  With a mast did you use a steady rest?

[wefalck]

Two comments on the video linked above:

 

- never ever manipulate parts that are held in a 3-jaw-chuck when the lathe is spinning; your fingers are too valuable! When the mandrel is held in a collet, you may do this (though this still is not ideal), but never with a 3-jaw-chuck, this is unsafe work-practice.

 

- when using abrasives, such as sandpaper always cover the bed of the lathe, any spindles and move the cross-slide out of the way; detached abrasives are poison for the lathe.

 

If you are a very beginner in machining, there are various hobbyist's textbook on that matter on the market. Another good source of learning are machinists' schoolbooks from the pre-1960s era, when manual lathe and mill skills were taught. You can find them on fleabay etc. or even on Google. Pre-WWI books can be even better, because they teach practices that are perfect for modellers, but were obsolete or even discouraged after WW2. Again, you can find such books on Google etc.

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

My Sherline lathe was bought 20+ years ago to replace a very old Sears Dunlop lathe that DID have Babbitt bearings.  At the time that I bought it I thought that I was also interested in doing some  gunsmithing so I paid the extra $$ to buy the extended bed.

 

The Sherline is a great machine for model making.  With the optional milling column and sensitive drilling attachment it also nicely solves drilling problems with small wire sized drill bitts.  It spends more time configured as a mill than a lathe.  I have since lost interest in gun smithing which is fortunate as I lack the machining skills to hold the necessary tolerances for doing this type of work safely.  I also believe that a Sherline is really not intended for this type of machining with high strength tool steels.  For this work, the Craftsman type machine that began this thread is more appropriate.

 

In my 20+ years of ownership I have never made use of the extended bed.  99 percent of the work that I do is performed within 2-3in of the headstock.  I would not attempt to turn a 17” long  mast on this machine.  It is much easier to cut a square sectioned blank and plane octagonal, etc.  The generous hole through the headstock also allows long slender items to be fed piecemeal to be turned in sections.  If I were buying a Sherline knowing what I know now I would buy the shorter bed machine.

 

Roger

 

 

[wefalck]

kgstakes, it just occurred to me that the small PROXXON wood-lathe may be just the thing for your miniature furniture making and some ship-model work too:

https://www.proxxon.com/en/micromot/27020.php

I think on demand they can supply extra beds for very long work-pieces. I think I also saw once a dulicator, but I don't remember, whether this was a third-party product.

 

As you can see from Twokidsnosleep's post, once you have a metal lathe, you can make all sorts of tools and fixtures to make more tools to ... one can easily diverted, once one has got the hang of it (see e.g.: https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/tools/toolsmain.html).

 

Edited January 7 by wefalck

[tkay11]

I totally agree with wefalck. I have had the Proxxon for 10 years and with little bit of tweaking with shims can be very accurately centred. The extension is wonderful, and I have made my own steady rest which improves handling wonderfully. The included toolrest has served me very well. I do have a teag lathe as well, bought second-hand, which I prefer for metal work, but in fact the Proxxon is the one I use most for masts and spars.

 

It is very low priced for what it is.

 

Tony

[Twokidsnosleep]

On 1/6/2024 at 5:50 PM, kgstakes said:

Nice projects.  What length is the bed on your sherline?  I wouldn’t be turning any masts but just wanted to know length and was there any wobble while turning?  With a mast did you use a steady rest?

The Sherline is the 17” extended one. No steady rest but I am studying that option now you guys have shown it!

I found the teak chopstick wanted to wobble and warp on me if I got heavy handed with it. A steady rest might have helped there.

Turning the masts was just to remove the moulded fake rope lines on styrene masts. It  was tricky and boy was I careful. 

Cemented brass rod stock inside the masts before any operations…more for strength on the model than for turning.

Used the three jaw Chuck and tail stock support as my mandrels would not fit. I was soooo careful tightening and speed control

she got a little squeaky and flexed too as I went along

Some areas I used the carbide tool, some a needle file and some sandpaper… and combinations off all depending on the flex, taper and access.

 

 

I keep my tools surgically clean, so as to avoid problems, keep things neat and tidy and extend their useful working lives

you can get a plastic cover for the sherline toggle switches off of Amazon to stop metal or wood dropping into them

 

[Bob Cleek]

On 1/6/2024 at 11:42 AM, kgstakes said:

Is he using a Unimat lathe?

Yes he is. An SL or DB (same thing, different model numbers.)