paul ron Posted March 13 Share #1 Posted March 13 underwood page 86 fig 92... the verticle jack stay on the main and fore masts has rat lines. how is the line they are connected to secured to the top and deck? these rat lines arent on my plans either... 1851 flying fish clipper... were these being used at that time? thanks paul mtaylor and Keith Black 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted March 13 Share #2 Posted March 13 27 minutes ago, paul ron said: underwood page 86 fig 92... the verticle jack stay on the main and fore masts has rat lines. how is the line they are connected to secured to the top and deck? these rat lines arent on my plans either... 1851 flying fish clipper... were these being used at that time? Paul, they absolutely had ratlines, that was the main way sailors reached the yards. I assume by ratlines you mean the horizontal rope lines tied to the shrouds. If not, please provide a picture or drawing of what you are questioning. mtaylor 1 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted March 13 Share #3 Posted March 13 If this is for your clipper ship have you studied Ed Tosti's build log for the Young America? Shrouds are shown about page 78 and ratlines, some pages later. Regarding jackstays (are vertical jack stays something different?) you can use the search bar in the build log topic to find his many photos showing jackstays on the yards. 1 hour ago, paul ron said: underwood page 86 fig 92... the verticle jack stay on the main and fore masts has rat lines. Which book is this by Underhill (he wrote quite a few)? Can you please post a picture from figure 92. Allan mtaylor and Keith Black 2 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Lad Posted March 13 Share #4 Posted March 13 Allen, Paul is referring to Underhill's "Masting & Rigging - the clipper ship and ocean carrier". Paul - if you read Underhill's notes at the top of page 87, you'll see that he's referring to alate innovation on some of the large four masted barques from the end of the 19th century. John allanyed, Keith Black, mtaylor and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul ron Posted March 13 Author Share #5 Posted March 13 28 minutes ago, Jim Lad said: Allen, Paul is referring to Underhill's "Masting & Rigging - the clipper ship and ocean carrier". Paul - if you read Underhill's notes at the top of page 87, you'll see that he's referring to alate innovation on some of the large four masted barques from the end of the 19th century. John yes thats the bible everyone refers to in here... anyway, the heavy lines coming down from the top to the deck... how is that installed? im guessing its via eyes at the top and deck. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Lad Posted March 14 Share #6 Posted March 14 Paul, what ship are you building? Are you sure these jackstays were rigged? If they were rigged, they would be shackled to eyes at the upper end and with bottle screws (rigging screws) shacked to eyes at the deck. John mtaylor and Keith Black 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wefalck Posted March 14 Share #7 Posted March 14 In the first post FLYING FISH was mentioned. She was a three-masted ship, while Underhill mentions these vertical jack-stays some distance away from the 'jigger-mast' only for some four-masted barques(?). As the diameters of the iron masts increased it the traditional rigging of the spanker/driver with hoops became impractical and vertical jack-stays were rigged along the mast. The above jack-stays with ratlines provided access to this arrangement. As these jack-stays were only there to support men, they were probably shackled to mast-top and set taught in an eye-bolt/lug on deck either with a bottle-screw or lashings. Keith Black, mtaylor and allanyed 3 Quote wefalck panta rhei - Everything is in flux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANYAN Posted March 14 Share #8 Posted March 14 Folks, there may be a bit of a mix of terminology being used here? If not, apologies in advance. As most of you know I am researching the rigging for HMCSS Victoria (1855) which may help shed some light on the question. Victoria's Specification, and her Rigging Warrant, both mention wire rope vertical jackstays (separate to the shrouds). As far as I can establish, the vertical jackstays (also sometimes referred to as horses I think) were (in Victoria at least) used to lace the leech of the storm sails. In Victoria, the fore, main and mizen (driver) fore-and-aft sails used traversing hoops. I have read that the jackstays were also used in some ships to lace the leech of all fore-and-aft sails rather than using hoops. From what I have found so far (and I would still welcome further info about the subject) is that these were either rope (early versions), wire rope or even iron rod (later ships). I have not established how they were secured on their upper and lower ends. In Victoria, I think these were only rigged when the storm sails were bent on. As such the vertical jackstays did not have footropes. While Paul is referring to the shrouds, vertical jackstays may also have been used in Flying Fish which may be the cause for the mix of terminology - @paul ron do your rigging/belaying plans also refer to vertical jackstays? cheers Pat Keith Black, allanyed and mtaylor 3 Quote If at first you do not suceed, try, and then try again!Current build: HMCSS Victoria (Scratch) Next build: HMAS Vampire (3D printed resin, scratch 1:350) Built: Battle Station (Scratch) and HM Bark Endeavour 1768 (kit 1:64) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wefalck Posted March 15 Share #9 Posted March 15 As these were 'innovatoins' that appeared late in the history of sailing ships, there may not have been a settled terminology. I wouldn't get worked up about terminology, the important thing is to understand how they worked. Keith Black 1 Quote wefalck panta rhei - Everything is in flux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul ron Posted March 15 Author Share #10 Posted March 15 (edited) On 3/13/2024 at 1:35 PM, paul ron said: underwood page 86 fig 92... the verticle jack stay on the main and fore masts has rat lines. how is the line they are connected to secured to the top and deck? these rat lines arent on my plans either... 1851 flying fish clipper... were these being used at that time? thanks paul flying fish 1851 clipper. the underhill book has a picture of what im talking about... i may not have the correct terminology but the pic on pg 86 fig 92 is obvious showing the jack stay running down the lower main and fore masts. ive seen these on many ships but was it used on clippers in 1851?... should i make more work for myself or close an eye? Edited March 15 by paul ron mtaylor and Keith Black 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solution Keith Black Posted March 15 Solution Share #11 Posted March 15 1 hour ago, paul ron said: should i make more work for myself or close an eye? Press forward with one eye closed and the other slightly squinted. Life's too short for extra work. paul ron and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul ron Posted March 15 Author Share #12 Posted March 15 i like that. my problem is as i research im finding more and more to add to my build. it gets crazy after awhile. moving on. thanks everyone paul mtaylor and Keith Black 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wefalck Posted March 15 Share #13 Posted March 15 Underhill states that these were (to his knowledge) used only on some four-masted barques(?) - that some 40 years after your FLYING FISH. I gather the FLYING FISH used hoops to attach the driver to the mast, so there would be no need for these kind of 'ladders' anyway. So, close both eyes and ignore. mtaylor and Keith Black 2 Quote wefalck panta rhei - Everything is in flux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Pellett Posted March 15 Share #14 Posted March 15 Paul, Have you looked at the build log for Ed Tosti’s Young America. If not, I recommend it. If you’re not familiar with it is a meticulous build of a Clipper of the same era. See how he handled this. Roger mtaylor, paul ron and Keith Black 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.