replacing plastic mast and spars

[Frank Burroughs]

Making a mast (or spars) from square stock
By Elia Gianopulos and ed. by NRG Staff

 

Is this a good start for replacing plastic mast and spars?

[Jaager]

When the dimensions are large enough that wood will work, it is probably imperative to replace plastic spars (masts, yards, booms) with wooden ones -  unless you like the top hamper looking like a Willow tree.

 

For plastic spars in kits in 1:96 or small scale, I see some of the yards as being too small for wood to work well - even though plastic is significantly less appropriate.

The real recommendation from the professional end of this  is to use brass when wood is too weak.  Maybe, the half hard brass welding rods? 

I have never seen any brass for sale that is harder than half hard.  

 

Working it down from square stock is probably superior to using a lathe for any spar, but for the really small diameter stock, a lathe's lateral force will probably break a higher portion than it has success with.  The rings across the grain that a lathe cutter makes  are probably near impossible to totally erase.

 

I thought this is the explicit source:  SHIP MODEL CLASSIFICATION GUIDELINES  1980  - DEPT. OF SALES AND SERVICE - MYSTIC SEAPORT MUSEUM   

it is mentioned - but maybe it is from the USN museums standards.     The idea of using brass does not exactly fill me with joy, but there is probably no practical alternative.                 
 

[Frank Burroughs]

Thanks for the 1980 document.

 

Brass has strength over wood.  Looking into it this was found:

 

"no lathe is needed: just make a shallow V-groove in a piece of wood, chuck up the wire into your mini-drill and work away on the way with a sanding stick with, say, 600 grit 'wet-n-dry' paper. Not even a mini-drill is needed, you can just hold the wire between your fingers, turn it by, say, 30° and count the number of strokes with the sanding stick to achieve roundness."   wefalck  Posted November 25, 2021

 

Sounds about right for a beginner .

 

The model I am working on is Revell 1961 CSS Alabama 1/96 scale.

[Jaager]

There are additional factors to doing this in a way that helps with the result being as optimal as possible.

Use an appropriate species of wood - tight straight grain - no pores.  Dense is probably good.

Split the square starting stock from its plank.  A split will be along the grain so the wood will be at equilibrium with its natural orientation from the start.

Using a saw will probably be a cut across the grain - usually at a sharp angle - when free from other fibers the angled fibers may seek  to be straight.

Look up froe for the traditional tool for splitting along the grain and Bamboo froe for a smaller version without the right angle handle. 

 

[GrandpaPhil]

I like to use bamboo kitchen skewers and bamboo toothpicks for small masts and spars.

[Keith Black]

 I had no strength issues using wood to make mast and yards at 1:120 scale.  The yards get additional strength when brass wire is used for jackstays. 

[Frank Burroughs]

brass wire is used for jackstays => clever

Do you paint the brass wire to blend in?

 

bamboo kitchen skewers and bamboo toothpicks for small masts and spars => very useful

I am wondering what kinds wood to buy for the main and foremast.  Same with the larger spares.

 

Trying not to buy power tools till the next model.  Right now a dremel variable speed and a drill press are it.  Read that it can be vertical or horizonal.  Using the idea of a grooved board and sandpaper

[Jaager]

21 minutes ago, Frank Burroughs said:

Using the idea of a grooved board and sandpaper

A 90 degree channel   45 degrees L  45 degrees R   - probably will need several with a range of depths  

Way back when,  it seemed to me that every "how to build ship models" book covered this method.

 

A miniature block plane,

scrapers - small steel luthiers , a freshly broken piece of glass, a single edge razor blade or carpet knife blade in a homemade wooden holder.

StewMac has a small flat razor file that eats wood yet leaves a smooth surface (if you get serious about this - they also have one named  Ultimate mini scraper - a bit dear in cost, sold out right now, and something you don't want to drop if your working surface is a tempered glass plate with beveled edges - it has some heft/mass.

warding files

 

Save the sandpaper until the end. 

 

Try Hard Maple for your masts -  

Birch dowels are made using something like a cork borer - straight grain along the whole length is just luck.

[Keith Black]

6 hours ago, Frank Burroughs said:

Do you paint the brass wire to blend in?

 Yes

[Scottish Guy]

Just as a general question, would you always replace palstic masts and booms with wooden ones (at least in historic models since some modern yachts and ships have metal masts or even carbon masts)? I´m wondering because in my opinion wooden masts always will look nicer, as long as they are not too grainy and the pores not to big to be out of scale. Just gives a ship "the" authentic finish look though.

 

I know it´s hard to archive, especially for folks like me that are not that much experienced in wood work since I till now always just did plastic models.

 

Micha

[Frank Burroughs]

10 Pc Dipped Handle Diamond  Riffler File Set, 220 grit left over from my carving days.  Could be 150 grit.  Will this do as warding files?

[Frank Burroughs]

small flat razor file like this?

[Scottish Guy]

38 minutes ago, Frank Burroughs said:

10 Pc Dipped Handle Diamond  Riffler File Set, 220 grit left over from my carving days.  Could be 150 grit.  Will this do as warding files?

 

I was eyeing with this kit as well but went against it. I have a Dremel 8220 with the flexshaft tool (a smaller handle with a flexible extension shaft) and lots of attachments for carving, sanding and cutting. I also have a load of files (small and large ones) that I don`t think it would beneficial for me.

 

Micha

[Frank Burroughs]

alrightythen, I have a few questions before investing.

 

What saw will work for cross grain work?

How does a cork borer work?  Which one would be suitable?

What diameter brass wire for jackstays?

So, I am buying hard maple for mast and birch for spars.  How thick should the sheets for each be?

where should the wood be bought?

[Frank Burroughs]

For a $100 dollars tools and wood were bought.  Can't wait to start!  Back to painting the hull.

[Jaager]

8 hours ago, Frank Burroughs said:

10 Pc Dipped Handle Diamond  Riffler File Set, 220 grit left over from my carving days.  Could be 150 grit.  Will this do as warding files?

You have to try them and see if they work.  The tool texts that I have read have it that diamond is for metal - primarily steel is my guess.  I use 220 grit sandpaper more for a smooth finish than removal.

 

HHS jeweler's files - the 4" have the cutting surface designed to cut wood.  needle files - for just this  I would use the flat rectangular equaling shape  - quality is expensive - using economy POS is more expensive in time wasted,  unneeded frustration, and lack of joy in how they perform.  

It is a more difficult grip , but the finger exerting the downward pressure should stay directly above the wood.  HHS that is hard enough to hold an edge is brittle - is does not bend - it snaps.

They come in different "cuts"  00 most aggressive to 6 smoothest    0  2  4  seems to be range readily available.

 

I have never gotten a rasp to work for me at the scales I am about. They rip and tear.     Usually deeper than I wish.  This is why I was so surprised at how well the Stewmac razor file worked.  As far as I know, it is unique.  No other source.  It is expensive.  If you have an open ended budget and you are in this at a serious level and for the long haul - it is worth having. 

 

Quote

What saw will work for cross grain work?

Until you get to a point where you do not have to ask - a normal razor saw - maybe even Exacto or Zona will do what you wish.  I prefer pull to push  but I spent a lot of time with push to get there.

 

Quote

How does a cork borer work?  Which one would be suitable?

It is a tool that is a series of brass tubes.  They have a sharp edge at one end -something that brass does not hold for long - and a T handle at the other.  They are used to twist a hole thru the center of a cork glass stopper to allow a glass tube to be pushed thru it.  When the borer is removed, there is a cork rod in the bore to be pushed out.  It looks like a dowel - but just looks like one.  These 19th century tech borers do not work so well on Neoprene ( rubber ).  That stuff wants to tear rather than cut if the cutting edge is not really sharp.  Unless you are in a chemistry or more often a biology lab,  I do not see what you would use them for.

 

I have never seen an actual dowel making sawmill - I imagine that a long thin wall steel tube with really sharp teeth - probably a bundle of them - rotating - plunged into the end grain of a bole of wood.  If the trunk of the tree is not a precisely engineered series of of concentric rings, a dowel bored from it will have variable grain.  Splitting - and using a species of wood that grows straight up - and is dense - and has really really small pores - tends to work better as a small scale simulation of a tall Pine tree's wood.

 

There are demonstrations  here doing the same job using larger bore syringe needles to mass produce hardwood trunnels.  ( Personal bias - if I use a trunnel, it will be to actually hold two pieces of wood together - and actual wooden nail - or Bamboo in my case.  I do not see the point of having shallow - just for show trunnels.  These are mostly used on decks.  On an actual ship, special effort was made to make the actual trunnels and bolts ( which were covered with a wooden plug ) as invisible as possible.  Making a deck that looks like it has the Measles is a not realistic modeler convention. 

Edited April 14 by Jaager

[Frank Burroughs]

What does "HHS" stand for?   jeweler's files

[Jaager]

HHS - High Speed Steel    oops -  HSS

I think that the major categories are steel  and carbide.  Not for files but for cutters.  For drill bits - with what we do and the small diameters we use - there is wiggle and flex - carbide is not flexible it may stay sharp a lot longer than steel but any lateral stress breaks it. 

For files  it is diamond vs steel   the steel files do have some bend to them, but they object to being bent over the work like a Japanese garden bridge.  Down force at both ends and work resistance in the middle and heat from friction  and a good quality file becomes two pieces.    It cost me  either a Vallorbe Glardon  or Contenti or Grobet or Vigor  file to learn that lesson.

Diamond must be easier and less expensive to produce than working grooves into hard steel.  The needle file On Sale deals are mostly diamond coated.  I bet that the metal that supports the diamonds ain't the best.

Edited April 15 by Jaager

[Scottish Guy]

3 hours ago, Jaager said:

Diamond must be easier and less expensive to produce than working grooves into hard steel.  The needle file On Sale deals are mostly diamond coated.  I bet that the metal that supports the diamonds ain't the best.

 

I agree with you. Diaomond dust / coarse dust is the drop of diaomond cutting, it`s just waste but sold to manufacturers for "Diamond Files". You get diamond files that are expensive because they are using really good quality high carbon steel or other quality metals as base. Then apply the diamond dust / coarse dust and voila, the diamond file is ready. Some are using less quality steels as a base and apply diamond dust / coarse dust onto it and often, which are the ones really cheap on eBay or Amazon to buy.

It takes much more effort to bring the pattern of a file into high carbon steel, some manufacturers are even blunt enough to take less qaulity steel and apply only high carbon steel flakes on the base or bring a small layer of carbon-steel onto the base.

It also comes into account if the diamond dust is from synthetic diamonds (industrial produced - LGD⁽¹⁾ like HPHT⁽²⁾ or CVD⁽³⁾) or from natural diamonds (which is more expensive).

 

In this case you can say, you get what you pay for...

 

⁽¹⁾ LGD - Lab(boratory) Grown Diamond standing for artificial produced diamonds

⁽²⁾ HPHT - high pressure high temperature diamonds, produced by using high pressure and high temperature on coal

⁽³⁾ CVD - Chemical Vapour Deposition, a chemical process to produce artificial diamonds

[Frank Burroughs]

Money being dear enough to almost make me go back to work, I chose this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N53K853/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

Not knowing what shape would work best for what job.  I took the shotgun effect on shapes.

[Scottish Guy]

36 minutes ago, Frank Burroughs said:

Not knowing what shape would work best for what job.  I took the shotgun effect on shapes.

 

What job are you trying to archive? What exactly do you need the files for? About the money? Tell me lol, I wish sometimes to win the lottery because going to work hardly pays the bills nowadays ^^

 

The kit is "Currently not available" here in the UK.

Edited April 15 by Scottish Guy

[Jaager]

Just starting out, you cannot know which shapes will be useful and which are of little or no use.   And that determination is individual - different for each of us.

It looks to me that you have done what is economical and practical.  Time, and use will show you which shapes are your favorite.  If or when these wear out or dull,

you can visit jewelers supply houses and buy quality individual files.

 

When you get to wood for the whole project, masting will be a minor portion of the whole.  Different needs and challenges at every stage.  When comes the time,

try to avoid seducing yourself into something too ambitious.  

 

For a PhD, the old stats were 50% of those who start get to the dissertation only level and only 15% complete to the degree.  It is not that the course work is all that difficult,  it is not.  The faculty is on your side.  They help and encourage.  It is that the process is an endurance test.   I am not unsure that wooden ship model building - especially scratch is not an even more challenging endurance test.

[Frank Burroughs]

Good to hear about the files.

 

I have a habit to pursue  a hobby when started.  I started out bookbinding in the late eighties.  Ended selling when COVID closed the farmers market closed.  During that time woodcarving ten years were spent.  Only quit that when the cerebral palsy made my hand cramp too much.  In for the long run with model ship building.

 

Too ambitious, no.  The models are selected in degrees of learning curve.  Driven, yes.  Reading history for a hobby leads to one book another!  Seeing a jumble of parts become a work of art thrills me!  Craftsmanship will keep me young.

 

My downfall is buying books and tools.  You can not create well with a poor tool and little knowledge.

[Nirvana]

Frank, I am so sorry to hear about your cerebral palsy, just read your input now in this posting.
Looking forward to seeing what you are into regarding build , see my other posting regarding Soleil Royal  - Aurora/Heller.

 

[Frank Burroughs]

No problem with the CP.  I consider myself normal, and you all walk a little funny.

[Canute]

Frank, you may want to look into getting a brass bristle brush to clear the debris from the files. Clean files work better.

[Frank Burroughs]

Already have one, thanks.

 

[Twokidsnosleep]

It can be done. I wish I used longer solid rods telescoping deeper.

[Frank Burroughs]

Found this. 

On 4/13/2024 at 9:14 PM, Jaager said:

A 90 degree channel   45 degrees L  45 degrees R   - probably will need several with a range of depths  

this would be a 90 degree channel

what would i use 45 degree channels for?

[popeye2sea]

Description of how to make a 90 deg. channel; 45 deg. L and 45 deg. R cuts.

 

Henry