wheels-metal-rolling-machine/eels metal rolling machine

[jerome]

Has anyone used one of these?

I’ll be coppering a model soon and have thought one of these maybe just the ticket.

using thicker copper as this model will be cast adrift into the Gulf Stream for a long time.

 

[Scottish Guy]

I don´t know what kind of machine you are talking about, during my apprenticeship as a car mechanic I worked with something like that... we used those to reproduce fenders or other body parts for the cars when they needed repair after crashes.

 

 

I´m pretty sure you get benchtop models of those for around USD 250.00 / GBP 200.00. Don´t know how good those are, the machine we used was an industrial machine, therefore it worked very well but requieres some experience and training. It looks easy but to archive what you want it requires some practise and experience. I had three years time during my apprenticeship to learn it under supervision of some trainers.

 

Micha

[BrochBoating]

Thats what I'd think of as an English Wheel. As you say often as an automotive tool for panel shaping. A friend did his apprenticeship at Aston Martin and was a wizard with one of these. I tried. I was not.

 

If you are thinking of one to shape sheets for a model I'd imagine a former of the hull in question and an assortment of hammers would work better with less practice.

Edited April 15 by BrochBoating

[Scottish Guy]

1 hour ago, BrochBoating said:

Thats what I'd think of as an English Wheel. As you say often as an automotive tool for panel shaping. A friend did his apprenticeship at Aston Martin and was a wizard with one of these. I tried. I was not.

 

I never became a master on it, my apprenticeship was with Mercedes Benz. To be honest, for model building and scale works I think some vice with balls and some good hammers will do the job. But that´s just my opinion.

I doubt that the few things we would make in model building will justify the price for a benchtop english wheel (roughly GBP 400.00). But like I stated, that is just my opinion.

 

Micha

Edited April 15 by Scottish Guy

[jerome]

This is indeed the tool I was talking about.

Could anyone enlighten me on whether the top wheel being able to pivot be of any difference?

And it would probably be a one time job to use this machine.

my though was it might speed up curving the copper material as opposed to hammers and the marks left by them.

I have seen a couple for less then $200 US dollars.

simple machines.

quality would be questionable.

we will see if the hammer works better first go round.

Edited April 16 by jerome

[Scottish Guy]

1 hour ago, jerome said:

Could anyone enlighten me on whether the top wheel being able to pivot be of any difference?

 

The wheel on top is running in a bearing and cna even be exchanged to change the force onto the flat top or ball on the bottom part. The size of the wheel somehow specifies the curve diameter you try to archive (that is why I stated you need training and experience - to know which wheel used for what archivement).

 

 

1 hour ago, jerome said:

And it would probably be a one time job to use this machine.

my though was it might speed up curving the copper material as opposed to hammers and the marks left by them.

 

It might be a one time job and even for USD 200.00 I´m pretty sure the size of even the benchtop English Wheels is not worth it. The storage of the device is quiet space intense. Also even USD 200.00 for a one time job is quiet expensive. If you doubt you can do it with a ball / flat top anvil then try to find a metal worker near you that might do the job for some small money (we have here a garage that has done a bigger job for me for GBP 20.00 to the coffee jar).

 

I personally would advise to try first the anvil / hammer method, this is for small parts the way to go though, except you do such jobs every week and maybe even in bigger scales. If you would work on parts bigger than 2ft (60 cm) then the benchtop device would be advised because that can become quiet hard to handle manually by using en anvil and hammer and holding the part to work on all at the same time, but as long as the benchtop devise is not pneumatic powered it also needs some talent to work it with only two hands.

The English Wheel we had during apprenticeship was a pneumatic machine, so you have a foot switch to start the hammering, which gives you both hands to handle the part.

 

Micha

[Roger Pellett]

I don"t know what an English Wheel roller is.   Possibly a Three Roll Bender in American Idiom?  MicroMark used to sell a light duty of one of these for about $100. I have one and it works well.

 

Roger

[jerome]

Micha,

Thank you so much for your help.

You have given me the food for thought.

I will pursue the hammer work before thinking of a English wheel.

the pieces to be made will all be less then 30” long.

and fairly thin lengthwise.

I’ll use a wooden former to hammer the copper against.

 

[Scottish Guy]

1 hour ago, jerome said:

I’ll use a wooden former to hammer the copper against.

 

That´s what I would try first before spending money and space for something you might never again use. I always try to assess if I need the device only once or twice or if I maybe even can use it for other jobs (outside the scale model world). The Dremel for example I can use ofr many things, not only scale models. So it was worth the money (I use it also for my typewriter and camera repairs / restaurations).

 

Hope it will work out for you Jerome, if you have questions about the hammer method just drop me a line or a pm.

 

Micha

[BrochBoating]

22 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

I don"t know what an English Wheel roller is.   Possibly a Three Roll Bender in American Idiom?  MicroMark used to sell a light duty of one of these for about $100. I have one and it works well.

 

Roger

 

No. As far as I can see a Three Roll Bender is a pipe bender. An English Wheel is a sheet metalwork tool typically used to make panels, often automotive. It is used, by very skilled craftsmen (I can't emphasise how skilled) by eye and hand to stretch flat metal in different directions to make complex curves.

 

English Wheel

Edited April 17 by BrochBoating

[Scottish Guy]

16 minutes ago, BrochBoating said:

No. As far as I can see a Three Roll Bender is a pipe bender. An English Wheel is a sheet metalwork tool typically used to make panels, often automotive. It is used, by very skilled craftsmen (I can't emphasise how skilled) by eye and hand to stretch flat metal in different directions to make complex curves.

 

 

Very well explained Simon, I couldn´t have explained it better but I never mastered the skills lol, I mean, you could recognise what I tried to archive but I never could have mastered parts for oldtimer for example, more likely lorries lol...

[wefalck]

I have seen historic and contemporary films on YouTube that show the use of English Wheels and there may be one or two that show the construction of shop-made ones.

 

To be honest I don't really see a need for such a gadget in ship-model building. In the automotive sector they are used to reproduce complex and tightly curved panels with beads or similar features. If you use single copper-plates or even whole strakes in most cases no particular shaping apart from pushing it snug against the wooden hull would be needed. In the worst case you could gently rub on it with a round wooden dowel or something like this on a soft and thick cardboard.

 

In boat-building the vertical iron panels for so-called Francis-patent boats were hammered to shape over wooden formers. The same later in the early years of the car industry, before mass-production.

[Scottish Guy]

55 minutes ago, wefalck said:

In boat-building the vertical iron panels for so-called Francis-patent boats were hammered to shape over wooden formers. The same later in the early years of the car industry, before mass-production.

 

Thats why I advised him not to buy one but using some rollers or balls (metal) or evdn tge hull itself and hammer it. During my apprenticeship as a car mechanic for Mercedes Benz we used an industrial english wheel for body works (but I never mastered the thingy). Can´t see the point in buying one for model ship building, especially since the ones available for "hobby" use are way to big and bulky and not really of use at all as long as you don´t plan to do a hull every week or day...

[paul ron]

im not sure i understand what you want to make with an english wheel... ive never seen any small enough for hobby use. id be curious to see something small enough unless you made one for this use.

 

maybe slip rollers?

https://www.amazon.com/slip-roll-machine/s?k=slip+roll+machine

 

or one of these with interchangable rollers for creating beads n seams

https://www.northerntool.com/products/klutch-rotary-bead-machine-and-die-set-7-pc-set-101456

 

 

Edited April 18 by paul ron

[wefalck]

These machines are just not worth the (financial) effort for something that can be done with simple hand-tools. Keep in mind that the copper-sheet should be very thin, 0.1 mm max (which is the thinnest one can normally get), and this would be very soft, so no machinery needed to shape them.

 

Another aspect would be, that one would literally iron out any embossing to simulate the nail pattern, if one goes for that. Or vice versa, putting the embossing in after rolling the plates would straighten them again.

 

 

[Scottish Guy]

4 minutes ago, paul ron said:

maybe slip rollers?

 

Slip Rollers are more used to bend metal sheets completely, an english wheel is more used to create something more complex like a fender for a car or an unregular hull. You get smaller (benchtop english wheels) but still, I can´t see any use for a scale model builder, except you use it every day.

 

using an english wheel to create a fender

 

Use of s slip roller to create a "tube" or "half pipe"

 

Amazon: Benchtop English Wheel but still quiet big to just put underneath the bench or into a cabinet.

 

Micha

[paul ron]

exactly! these tools arent small nor are they suited for miniature work on light gage metal. 

[jerome]

To answer the question of why I thought one may be of use in the upcoming project.

A gentleman whom is dying has wished to have a model boat built that his ashes will be placed in and the model will be launched into the Gulf Stream.

So that he may cruise the Atlantic for eternity.

My thoughts on the eternity thing made me think of marine growth overwhelming a wood model boat in a pretty short time.

hence: copper bottom plating.

Copper will keep marine growth from attaching itself for a good long time.

The model will be a rounded bottom fishing vessel similar to one’s he fished on years ago.

I thought an English wheel would make forming the copper easier on this type of hull.

I will start with using a hammer, as the copper doesn’t need to be very thick.

Hope this answers some questions.

Thank you for all the insight.

It’s a wonderful thing!

[druxey]

Just remember to anneal the copper frequently as you form it. It will work-harden and, if not re-annealed, will crack rather than bend.

[Scottish Guy]

1 hour ago, jerome said:

So that he may cruise the Atlantic for eternity.

 

I´m sorry to be the one telling you but a scale model set into the gulf stream might survive for maybe a week, if so long and then it will just capsize. I crossed the Atlantic twice and know the conditions in this regions. The waves on a sunny calm day might already to much for a 100 cm long scale boat, especially since no one will be there to take actions to avoid being swallowed by the swell. The copper or metal sheeting won´t secure the ship for that, they just might keep it floating a few days longer but that`s it. As long as the ship is not completely water tight, doesn´t have the proper buoyancy, ot will sink within days. Meaning you would have to build a scale model that doesn´t allow any water inside at all and has enough buoyancy to stay afloat in any condition.

But then you won´t need a metal sheeting but some proper coating or maybe using glassfiber to protect the hull and installations on deck. This would be quiet a job to find the proper buoyancy for this ship. Sounds like an interesting project but still doesn´t justify an english wheel, in this case I wouldn´t even use metal sheets but glassfaser or a really good coating like real sail yachts would use.

I really appreciate you dedication for such a project would be nice to have more people that much dedicated and caring for the wishes of others. Bowing to you for that.

 

Micha

Edited April 20 by Scottish Guy

[jerome]

Thanks Micha,

I have been tossing the longevity of this project around for a couple of weeks.

Having sailed deep sea on oil tankers years ago I have first hand knowledge of the strength of the ocean.

I have also spent years boat building real boats.

So am well aware of products for building real boats.

 

But the Eternity / Longevity is an issue for a 30” long model boat.

I would be highly surprised if this model even drifted as far east as the European continent before being overwhelmed by the ocean of something else floating in the ocean.

 

The fiberglass idea is looking much easier and tried and true in my building eyes.

Waterproofing this model should be pretty easy.

gasket material and screws will hold the hatch in place.

The possibility of building watertight bulkheads into the boat is also viable idea.

I suppose I’ll have to have a build log of this interesting project so everyone can give more and better ideas.

Thanks for all the help and questions.

 

[Scottish Guy]

9 minutes ago, jerome said:

But the Eternity / Longevity is an issue for a 30” long model boat.

I would be highly surprised if this model even drifted as far east as the European continent before being overwhelmed by the ocean of something else floating in the ocean.

 

That is what I tried to tell you in my very complicated way lol 🤣 hope you can forgive me. I have seen myself some really bad weather conditions on a 38 ft sail boat and it wasn´t a pleasure at all. That´s why it took me another 4 yrs before I did the 2nd Atlantic crossing and not yet dared the Pacific or a circumnavigation since the Pacific is much rougher than the Atlantic.

 

But I still adore your dedication to help this guy out with his dreams / wish. My deepest respect for that.

 

Micha

[DocRob]

The small copper sheets for coppering a hull don´t need to be bent into two dimensions, I guess. for one dimensional bending, I use the following tool, which is made for photo etch parts and can simply be self fabricated, at least the here important rubber side.









Cheers Rob

[Scottish Guy]

9 minutes ago, DocRob said:

The small copper sheets for coppering a hull don´t need to be bent into two dimensions, I guess. for one dimensional bending, I use the following tool, which is made for photo etch parts and can simply be self fabricated, at least the here important rubber side.

 

Thank you for that Rob, haven´t seen one of those for ages. I had one once but don´t know where it is gone but tbh, I didn´t use it much, the good old hand work with a hammer and a small anvil did the job all the times.

 

Micha