Staghound 1850 by rwiederrich - 1/96 - Extreme Clipper

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

That is a great looking window.    Good idea. 
 

Hey……about the skylight.  I know Glory had  6x6 with a 4ft light in the middle and 1ft seats on both sides.    
 

But I though Staghound had. Much larger single skylight.   That was 10ft long?   I’ll have to recheck too.   
 

Here are the two houses waiting to be installed. 
 

Rob

 

[BANYAN]

@rwiederrich That's some very nice work Rob, looking good indeed.

@ClipperFan and Rich you are providing some very nice drawings/sketches.

 

I am not commenting much as you guys have this well in hand, but I had to acknowledge the enjoyment I am getting following along.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[ClipperFan]

Just now, ClipperFan said:

 

Rob,

To clear up apparently repetitive confusion on skylight dimensions, here are precise descriptions by Duncan McLean of several skylights installed on Donald McKay's third clipper Staffordshire. Remarkably, while she was under construction, a third deck was added and she was converted to a flush deck packet. For my skylight reconstruction I relied on two sources: Michael Mjelde's Glory of the Seas rear coach house roof plans and the sole useful image of a skylight on the ship herself. Michael's two skylight outlines measure 6' long × 4' wide. Since the photo shows apparent seating surfaces on both sides with a slight overhang, my sketch was 6' long x 4' wide. Center house structure was 5' long (inset 6" on both ends) about 2' wide by 1' high. My estimate of a large 10' long central skylight is just that. I'm still nailing down those dimensions based upon available poop deck space. I hope this helps clear up skylight dimensions.

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich

Drawing inspiration from your triple window treatment for the side, I revised that side window. It appears to balance out the door better this way. Here's the finished starboard side for the Stag Hound portico. To complete the series, both fore and aft are included as a pair and each individually. There's one more enlargement of the starboard side to try and keep the sizes equal. What astounds me about Rob's rapid craftsmanship is this. His lovely, delicate portico was entirely complete, long before I could finish my conceptual sketches! Now the race is on to complete my sketch of the 44' poop deck furniture. .. 😉

 

 

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

One other thing to confuse you.  Duncan McLean says she had a Patent windless.   Not a hand lever windless.   
 

Here is. Patent Windless found in Campbell’s book.  Every drawing we have seen shows her with  a hand lever windless.  
Riddle me this……

@rwiederrich

great catch! I was able to confirm that this is Emerson & Walker's 1850 patented windlass. I hope you don't mind; I lightened up your Campbell print and found a three-dimensional print as well. Hard to believe McLean's brief description had anything else in mind, from his terse description.

[ClipperFan]

@rwiederrich

Not to throw a "monkey wrench" into the Emerson & Walker 1850 patent but... here goes. There's another windlass by mechanic C Perley, patented July 30th 1850 which also looks quite versatile. What I'm looking to find is any reference to "ends which ungear" the sole attribute described by McLean  Here's the patent image with details 

[ClipperFan]

@rwiederrich

Here's an 1855 Scientific Magazine article on Emerson's improvement of his own windlass. This article's material does refer to the windlass's ability to "ungear." I also noticed that the alternative windlass I just shared doesn't even illustrate use of a capstan. It's looking more likely that Emerson & Walker's patent windlass is the correct choice.

[ClipperFan]

10 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

To clear up apparently repetitive confusion on skylight dimensions, here are precise descriptions by Duncan McLean of several skylights installed on Donald McKay's third clipper Staffordshire. Remarkably, while she was under construction, a third deck was added and she was converted to a flush deck packet. For my skylight reconstruction I relied on two sources: Michael Mjelde's Glory of the Seas rear coach house roof plans and the sole useful image of a skylight on the ship herself. Michael's two skylight outlines measure 6' long × 4' wide. Since the photo shows apparent seating surfaces on both sides with a slight overhang, my sketch was 6' long x 4' wide. Center house structure was 5' long (inset 6" on both ends) about 2' wide by 1' high. My estimate of a large 10' long central skylight is just that. I'm still nailing down those dimensions based upon available poop deck space. I hope this helps clear up skylight dimensions.

@rwiederrich

Rob,

I took another look at the Boston Daily Atlas description of a 13' skylight installed on Staffordshire. It wasn't a single one as I first thought, but actually a doubled up 6 & 1/2' skylight pair. That gives me the impression that for some reason, the maximum length for such structures might have been 6 & 1/2'. Next, I will see if it's possible that two back to back 12-13' skylights will fit on the poop deck instead. The wheel house on my layout looks like it can be moved back a bit which just might make everything else fit. Just give me a day or two and I should have an answer for you.

[rwiederrich]

11 hours ago, BANYAN said:

@rwiederrich That's some very nice work Rob, looking good indeed.

@ClipperFan and Rich you are providing some very nice drawings/sketches.

 

I am not commenting much as you guys have this well in hand, but I had to acknowledge the enjoyment I am getting following along.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Thanks Pat.....I want to get as much deck furniture accomplished before hand...during the lull...prior to getting the bulkheads.

 

Again, thanks for looking in my friend.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

9 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich

Here's an 1855 Scientific Magazine article on Emerson's improvement of his own windlass. This article's material does refer to the windlass's ability to "ungear." I also noticed that the alternative windlass I just shared doesn't even illustrate use of a capstan. It's looking more likely that Emerson & Walker's patent windlass is the correct choice.

Good thing, this monster is located under the forecastle.  Since the owners of Staghound gave McKay an open checkbook...no wonder he installed this.  this kind of windless wasn't used in Flying Cloud, or Flying fish, or Glory of the Seas for that matter.  It must have been expensive for the time.  So that means Staghound had no hand lever windless....typical, just under the edge of the forecastle deck....

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

29 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

That gives me the impression that for some reason, the maximum length for such structures might have been 6 & 1/2'.

Maybe, but Duncan's description is, *A large skylight*.  An average 6 1/2' skylight wouldn't yield the same description. IMV.  However, doubling up two *singles*, might be an answer.  But if McKay had the freedom to buy or build whatever he needed for this ship, why skimp?  Why not just build the skylight you envisioned?  Fill the space over the dining room with light.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Here is a patent windless  shipboard.

 

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

5 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Maybe, but Duncan's description is, *A large skylight*.  An average 6 1/2' skylight wouldn't yield the same description. IMV.  However, doubling up two *singles*, might be an answer.  But if McKay had the freedom to buy or build whatever he needed for this ship, why skimp?  Why not just build the skylight you envisioned?  Fill the space over the dining room with light.

 

Rob

Rob,

You're right about McKay's freedom. The other issue is that per contract stipulation, once signed the ship had to be entirely finished within 90 days, literally from when the ink was dry! Would it be quicker to build your own or pair two ready made units?

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Here is a patent windless  shipboard.

 

 

Rob

Rob,

This certainly looks more compact and advanced then the more traditional barrel shaped ones we're used to seeing.

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

You're right about McKay's freedom. The other issue is that per contract stipulation, once signed the ship had to be entirely finished within 90 days, literally from when the ink was dry! Would it be quicker to build your own or pair two ready made units?

So lets follow that for a minute.  What does *paring* 2 look like, if Duncan McLean said, *A* large skylight.....?

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

You're right about McKay's freedom. The other issue is that per contract stipulation, once signed the ship had to be entirely finished within 90 days, literally from when the ink was dry!

One very good reason McKay probably purchased the Patent windless...instead of making his own.  McLean did say that  every expense was utilized to use the most advanced technology available in the forecastle mechanics.

 

Ro

[rwiederrich]

This morning I began the 10ft main skylight. 
Just finished up the base of the light.   Onto the skycap.  
 

It may come to your attention that the light is a bit different than the drawing you made Rich.  That was for a 6ft light.  I have artistic license to produce a light that fits the bill.  It will still retain the same design.  
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Milling the corner pieces was very tricky.  I tooled up the stock and ran a section through the routing bit.  Those sections are less than 3/32”.  On both sides of the molding.  
 

I haven’t decided if I’ll add the brass glass guards yet.   Might be too crowded and clumsy in this scale.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Milling the corner pieces was very tricky.  I tooled up the stock and ran a section through the routing bit.  Those sections are less than 3/32”.  On both sides of the molding.  
 

I haven’t decided if I’ll add the brass glass guards yet.   Might be too crowded and clumsy in this scale.  
 

Rob

Rob,

Drawing something up and actually building it are worlds apart. I respect the work you're doing. It will be a fine replica by the time you're done and will also be the first accurate Stag Hound miniature ever crafted too.

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Drawing something up and actually building it are worlds apart. I respect the work you're doing. It will be a fine replica by the time you're done and will also be the first accurate Stag Hound miniature ever crafted too.

I thought strongly about just doubling up the 6ft design……but the skylight had too be bigger, that is why I chose the 10ft design.   
In choosing that, I permitted myself some artistic license, to use the same design, but gave the sitting ledge all the way around….on all four sides.   And more openness to the lower house body.  
 

The main difference between this vessel and Glory of the Seas, is that, Glory was recorded on film.  So we had a standard we HAD to meet.  We couldn’t do any less.  
As long as we keep to the eyewitness account of Duncan McLean…… we’re golden. Just look at the fun we had playing with the portico.  Is it right, is it wrong……?   It’s an 8x8 portico with doors on either side, with a 4ft recess.  Done deal.  What we do and did next was a result of logic and typical practice. As we understand it. 

 

Rob

Edited August 17 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

6 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

This morning I began the 10ft main skylight. 
Just finished up the base of the light.   Onto the skycap.  
 

It may come to your attention that the light is a bit different than the drawing you made Rich.  That was for a 6ft light.  I have artistic license to produce a light that fits the bill.  It will still retain the same design.  
 

Rob

Rob,

Just a reminder that the top of the base had the same extended molding as seen on the base. If I'm jumping the gun on reminding you, my apologies in advance. I suspect all these furniture moldings had to do with eliminating sharp edges which could cause serious injuries. 

[Rick310]

Rob, ClipprtFan,

You might find this interesting.  Years ago I purchased this book on the ship models on the Boston Museum of Fine Art.  It contained 2 pictures of the Flying Cloud with the caption that the model was constructed under the supervision of Arthur H Clark.

However, in the museum, the information plaque states that the model was constructed under the supervision of a former officer.

Interesting.

RickYhe bottom picture is from the actual display.

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, Rick310 said:

Rob, ClipprtFan,

You might find this interesting.  Years ago I purchased this book on the ship models on the Boston Museum of Fine Art.  It contained 2 pictures of the Flying Cloud with the caption that the model was constructed under the supervision of Arthur H Clark.

However, in the museum, the information plaque states that the model was constructed under the supervision of a former officer.

Interesting.

RickYhe bottom picture is from the actual display.

@Rick310

Cool book. I wonder if this is still a available? What simply amazes me is that while the hull's sheer and body plans may have been traced directly from McKay's own lines, critical components were entirely omitted. That, despite Duncan McLean's very specific descriptions of the seaworthy nature of these innovative rugged, nautical structures. I greatly admire the beauty of the Boucher models but they're still featuring a bare stem. The first model is from Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. The second is a twin at Addison Gallery, Phillip's Academy, Andover, MA. They look remarkably similar but their sail arrangements are different.  In a way, Boucher Mfg. can't be faulted since, Donald McKay quite likely posthumously, pulled a Houdini on everyone with his unique bow construction. 

Edited August 18 by ClipperFan
additional information

[rwiederrich]

6 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Just a reminder that the top of the base had the same extended molding as seen on the base. If I'm jumping the gun on reminding you, my apologies in advance. I suspect all these furniture moldings had to do with eliminating sharp edges which could cause serious injuries. 

That will be included in the thin mahogany veneer that will be put on top.  (Not yet shown). 
Not finished with it yet.  I’ve decided to use a varnished mahogany top for sitting, instead of painting it white. 
 

I had, honey do, things to take care of today…..so work was put on hold. 
 

Rob

Edited August 18 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

6 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

That will be included in the thin mahogany veneer that will be put on top.  (Not yet shown). 
Not finished with it yet.  I’ve decided to use a varnished mahogany top for sitting, instead of painting it white. 
 

I had, honey do, things to take care of today…..so work was put on hold. 
 

Rob

Rob,

A mahogany top makes perfect sense. Certainly in keeping with the concept of McKay wanting to make a profound statement with his launching the then largest merchant vessel in the world.

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

A mahogany top makes perfect sense. Certainly in keeping with the concept of McKay wanting to make a profound statement with his launching the then largest merchant vessel in the world.

Thanks, If we could find any images of any of the packet ships McKay built earlier…..we might find he used varnished woods on his exteriors of such fixtures.  
 

I think it adds depth and contrast.  
 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

If i was only to keep up. 

Glorious work on portico Rob. Ingenious craft on your scale. bravo. 

V. 

[ClipperFan]

7 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Thanks, If we could find any images of any of the packet ships McKay built earlier…..we might find he used varnished woods on his exteriors of such fixtures.  
 

I think it adds depth and contrast.  
 

Rob

Rob,

Michael Mjelde told me that, as each Captain took over their craft, they could and often did change the appearance of their ships. Mike once recounted a dizzyiing number of times that  had the colors of her structures changed at the whim of each ship's new  commander. I can look to verify McKay's use of rich hardwoods in his packets but I'm sure that he did from everything I've read.

 

 

[rwiederrich]

Rich....time to put on your thinking cap....(again).

If Staghound had a patent windless beneath her forecastle capstan.......  then we need to reconfigure her forecastle front.  She will not have an open front FC like so many of her sisters.  No need for a windless hand crank mechanism on her forecastle either. Her chain would enter through the howes holes...go aft to her new patent windless and then from there directly down into her chain holding spaces.  No need for the chain to run across the deck and enter through chain ports just forward of her main cabin.

 

Her forecastle can be weather tight in a word, and be decorated such as the portico in style and grace..   What input do you have on this idea...based on the facts of her windless issue?

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Rich....time to put on your thinking cap....(again).

If Staghound had a patent windless beneath her forecastle capstan.......  then we need to reconfigure her forecastle front.  She will not have an open front FC like so many of her sisters.  No need for a windless hand crank mechanism on her forecastle either. Her chain would enter through the howes holes...go aft to her new patent windless and then from there directly down into her chain holding spaces.  No need for the chain to run across the deck and enter through chain ports just forward of her main cabin.

 

Her forecastle can be weather tight in a word, and be decorated such as the portico in style and grace..   What input do you have on this idea...based on the facts of her windless issue?

 

Rob

Rob 

That makes total sense. So, essentially her forecastle would be entirely enclosed. I would follow the bulkhead moulding style like we saw on Glory of the Seas. My only caveat would be, in case of a mechanical failure, would they have kept a windless hand crank mechanism as an emergency back up?