Mary Rose by djford - Caldercraft - 1:80

[djford]

On 12/6/2024 at 5:56 PM, Baker said:

The strakes normally follow the lines of the planks and seal the seams between two planks

 

Well today I learned - and that's annoying, because the Caldercraft instructions have them as I've placed them on the hull. I should have looked this up first!

 

On 12/6/2024 at 5:56 PM, Baker said:

Here indeed there was no clinker planking, but removable shields.

I woke up this morning and decided it would always annoy me if I didn't change this. I've already ripped some of these off and I've started on the planking of a similar area on the forecastle - I'll update soon with my new version.

 

Thanks for the reply!

[Baker]

I can send you more info and drawings via pm about these shields.
But then you have to wait a bit, Baker is on vacation

[djford]

On 12/8/2024 at 9:27 PM, Baker said:

I can send you more info and drawings via pm about these shields.

I'd be interested in your research - though I've already added in my interpretation of the drawings I have for my model 😉 I hope your vacation is going well!

 

Here's today's update. After taking off the clinker over the gunport holes, I turned my attention fully to the forecastle this week.

Well, sort of fully - here's my 3D-printed bronze cannon, now painted bronze.

I'm very happy with how these have turned out. For the paint I used Army Painter Weapon Bronze, followed by a wash of Citadel Nuln Oil and a drybrush of both Weapon Bronze and Citadel Leadbelcher. I was tempted to add a little verdigris with some weathering powders I have, but I think that might be taking  it a little too far!

 

Here's two of them in place:

 

So. Forecastle.

In a previous post I mentioned that I was unsure about how to deal with the delta-shaped top of the lowest deck of the castle where it meets the second deck. In the end, I simply planked over it. This looks similar to some of the reference images I'm using, and I'm pleased with how these planks have fit together.

You can see here the offset hole I've cut for the bowsprit and the slight divot I've taken from the front supporting post to accomodate it as well.

 

And here's my solution for the pavisade gunports - I'll be replicating this on the sterncastle as well, though slightly differently as the ports are spaced slightly closer together there.

In McElvogue's book he has a lovely illustration of how these would have fit together, and I loosely copied that. The ports need a bit of cleanup in this photo, but they're far better representations of the various media than what I'd done before. Also in this photo note the white band across the middle where I'll be painting the yellow and red stripes depicted in the Anthony Roll. I used white painter's gesso for this as it's designed for use on wood and provides a very solid base coat - another layer still required.

 

For the top layer of ports I've created a similar pattern, but as these are smaller in the various sources I have I resorted to a bit of improvisation. Later on I filed out a little groove in the top of each port to create the same 'dimpled' shape as the lower ones.

 

Here's a couple photos of it in situ:

 

You can also see a sneak peek at my sterncastle progress - I stuck in the four cannon and have begun the pavisade gunports there too, but I'll update that properly in the next post. I'm happy with how the forecastle looks here, and though I am a little concerned about the height I think it does match the historical sources quite well.

 

Now onto the main issue that's caused me consternation over the last few days. First, let's look at the Anthony Roll's depiction of the forecastle:

 

And then here is McElvogue's drawing of it:

 

And Marsden's:

 

So my questions were mostly around the top 'cabin' and the two 'prows' that extend over the top deck and the cabin's roof. In McElvogue's work they're extremely pronounced, whilst in Marsden's they're nonexistent. I can't believe that Anthony Anthony would have added the slight curve forward in his illustration if it wasn't there, but it certainly doesn't feel like a sharp point is what we're working with here.

 

Additionally, both of the archaeologists have omitted any kind of railing on their top deck here, implying that there was no access to this point on the ship, and yet to manage the masts there must have been a need to climb up here. Certainly health and safety wasn't what it is today, but I'd be surprised if there was nothing at all, especially when looking at the Embarkation painting, which definitely has a pavisade-style railing, much like in the waist of the Mary Rose:

 

Here's my creation with the bowsprit in place against one of Marsden's drawings:

As you can see, the bowsprit on mine is at a much steeper angle - I could change this still, but it does appear to have been steeper based on the various historical sources, and McElvogue's book has it at around a 40 degree pitch.

 

For the prow, I initially experimented with creating something similar to McElvogue's work, bending a plank to meet a very pointed 'stempost' at the tip of the castle:

I think that if I'd got this to work, it would have looked quite nice, but after a lot of struggling I just couldn't make the planks sit right, and it didn't feel like the Anthony Roll's depiction at all.

 

I moved on to a slightly less prominent 'prow' (forgive me, I have no idea what this point should be called).

And this is what I've decided to go with - it still expands the top 10mm or so of the castle without creating a major headache of plank bending, and looks a lot more like the Embarkation painting.

 

Here's a view of the inside:

The two planks here raise the height around 10mm above the deck - that's just over 1 metre to scale. My plan is to have this as the railing of the top deck, and build up the cabin at the back of this structure.

 

So that's what I did:

Here's the cabin, with three supports to estimate a good height. This is 20mm above the railing planks, which I intend to lower slightly. You can see that I've planked over these with a very thin sapelli veneer; this will be the base for another strip of white gesso before I paint on the stripes.

 

And some walls on the cabin:

I again used some of the precut boards from the Caldercraft kit for this - I believe that these would have been part of the original forecastle, so it's nearly accurate 😉 I'll put in some more interesting planking around these once I'm happy with the basic structure.

 

And here it is on the ship:

 

And from the front:

 

I'm sure that this is deviating wildly from known historical evidence at this point, but ultimately it is a model, my first semi-scratch build - and I'm pretty damn pleased with how this has come out.

 

Do let me know your thoughts.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Old Collingwood]

Excllent work,  I still  remember the  day when she was lifted in the Solent -  what  an event  on the tv.

 

OC.

[Louie da fly]

On 12/13/2024 at 5:33 AM, djford said:

the two 'prows' that extend over the top deck and the cabin's roof. In McElvogue's work they're extremely pronounced, whilst in Marsden's they're nonexistent.

Keep in mind that these reconstruction drawings are modern interpretations, and I for one can't see any evidence to justify these 'prows'. I like your way of doing it far better.

 

I think the angle of the bowsprit looks far closer to the Anthony Roll depiction than those of the two modern reconstructions. So go with it.

 

The height of the bulwark above the deck - one metre - is what is specified here in Oz for any structure such as a railing on a raised floor/balcony etc. So I think you're on the money there.

 

The triangular 'cabin' surprised me a bit. I would have thought the Anthony Roll shows the walls parallel to the sides of the forecastle. But this is very open to interpretation, and I'm by no means going to say you're wrong in doing it this way.

 

Overall, I'm gobsmacked. You're doing a beautiful job!

 

Steven

[djford]

10 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

The triangular 'cabin' surprised me a bit. I would have thought the Anthony Roll shows the walls parallel to the sides of the forecastle. But this is very open to interpretation, and I'm by no means going to say you're wrong in doing it this way.

Yes, I'm not entirely sure about it, but I think I'm happy with how it looks. If it doesn't work out it's only the top deck to rip off later 😉

 

That said, if you look at the Anthony Roll there are three obvious flags on the very top of the forecastle, and so I was going with the assumption they were on each point of the triangle. There's one more flag on the forward tip of the forecastle itself. We'll see!

 

10 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Overall, I'm gobsmacked. You're doing a beautiful job!

Thank you very much, that means a lot!

[Louie da fly]

5 hours ago, djford said:

there are three obvious flags on the very top of the forecastle, and so I was going with the assumption they were on each point of the triangle.

Interesting thought. To me it looks as if the two at far left and far right are level with each other, both at the front corner of the 'cabin', and the rear one is at the back corner (starboard), but that leaves the question 'where's the one for the port back corner?' Or it could just be that he bunged flags wherever he could fit them. I dunno. Up to you, mate, whatever you feel is right. It's your model, after all.

 

Best wishes,

 

Steven

[Baker]

Indeed, a very intriguing view of the upper part of the fore castle 🤔

[djford]

On 12/14/2024 at 10:11 PM, Louie da fly said:

Interesting thought. To me it looks as if the two at far left and far right are level with each other, both at the front corner of the 'cabin', and the rear one is at the back corner (starboard), but that leaves the question 'where's the one for the port back corner?'

 

On 12/15/2024 at 7:32 AM, Baker said:

Indeed, a very intriguing view of the upper part of the fore castle 🤔

 

I ended up agreeing with both of you on this. Back to the drawing board; see below!

 

First of all, I carried on with my initial construction of the forecastle. Where we left off was pretty close to done, but I finished off with the roof of the cabin and the beams that run vertically up the aft side:

In the Anthony Roll these are extremely curved - I toned that down somewhat, but I did add a little curvature in. It's possible these would have been completely straight.

 

On with the masking tape! This was a time-consuming process, but worth it in the end. Here you see the first layer of gesso on:

 

And here's the stripes!

Pretty happy with this - a few messy bits that I'll clean up later, once the sterncastle is painted.

 

Another view from the front:

 

And now time to rip off that top cabin. I wasn't happy with it, and especially after the feedback from my last post I knew it would never be right to me.

 

Luckily I'd not actually attached it very strongly, and some careful prodding with a hobby saw later...

 

My original front post for the triangular cabin was around 5mm thick, and after some even more careful application of the saw, I had these:

Which had mostly survived unscathed!

 

The original Caldercraft kit had a little archway for the front of the forecastle. I figured I might as well use it here, and created this:

 

And a side view:

I'm much happier with this shape, and I think it works well with the rest of the structure. This means the forecastle is mostly completed, other than the entire aft wall. I still need to decide whether to include the Tudor rose 'figurehead' that was apparently affixed to the tip of the upper deck.

 

Now I've not just been working on the forecastle - if you recall from a previous post I wasn't happy with the clinker planking I'd done over the portholes, so I took those off. Here's what I replaced that with:

I believe that this is much more in line with the 'original', as far as we know. It's also in a similar style to what I've done on the forecastle, so I'm much more satisfied with it.

 

You can also see I've started building up the walls above - these are just thin sheets of plywood as a basis for the coming construction.

 

Here's the poop deck dry fit to check the height:

 

And a full side view:

 

And since then, I've actually made huge progress, adding in the middle deck:

Note I'm not planking the two internal decks; they'll be practically invisible through the tiny portholes, and I'm running a little low on the tanganyika planks I've used for the rest of the decking, so it seems sensible to not waste the wood here. Each of these decks will have two cannon fore and aft, but as you can see in this photo there's little visibility around the barrels anyway. I'll probably not spend too much effort making the carriages perfect either for this reason.

 

There are thirteen portholes on the next level up, separated by distinct uprights. I managed to get exactly thirteen with a pattern using the various scrap pieces the build has generated thus far, which I'm quite pleased with. I'll be rounding out the top of each porthole later down the line. The strips of sapelli veneer will be painted over with gesso and then stripes.

 

And here's the top deck in place, with masts all test fit just because I could:

 

A view from the other side:

 

My plan is to put a small railing around the top of the sterncastle as well, which will give me space for the top line of stripes. In between this and the previous line is a strange pattern of cross hatching - I'm not entirely sure what to do here, so any input would be very appreciated.

 

A couple final details before I sign off - the top of the forecastle planked:

 

And a full view of the sterncastle's port side:

You can also see I've started planking the poop deck here. Once the railing is in place my next task will be working out how on earth to get 1:80 scale boarding netting to look good. Any suggestions?!

 

That's all for now - I've packed up for Christmas as we've got lots of family round and the dining table was required. Thanks for reading, and happy holidays to all!

[Baker]

Nice work. 

The new shape of the fore castle is indeed much better.

 

[Louie da fly]

That's all looking very good, Doug.

 

On 12/25/2024 at 3:10 AM, djford said:

And here's the stripes!

I like the paintwork, very neat. And you have the narrow white stripe between the red and the yellow. Very nice.

 

On 12/25/2024 at 3:10 AM, djford said:

The original Caldercraft kit had a little archway for the front of the forecastle. I figured I might as well use it here, and created this:

That works nicely. Arches seem to have been a bit of thing at this time, so I think you've got a pretty good justification for it.

 

On 12/25/2024 at 3:10 AM, djford said:

I still need to decide whether to include the Tudor rose 'figurehead' that was apparently affixed to the tip of the upper deck.

Oh, do it if you possibly can. You do know they've actually found the original, don't you? https://maryrose.org/artefacts/emblem-figurehead/ If you're worried about carving it, don't be. That's just a matter of practice. And using the correct wood (fruit woods are nice and fine grained - pear, apple , cherry. Or better still English box - buxus sempervirens - that's amazingly good). Have  ago! Carving can be very rewarding and fulfilling (and addictive if you're not careful!)

 

On 12/25/2024 at 3:10 AM, djford said:

Note I'm not planking the two internal decks;

No, there's no need. I made the mistake of not even including the decks at all in my Great Harry (hey, I was seventeen - I didn't think ahead far enough) and had terrible trouble supporting the cannons inside. I had to do all kinds of dodgy work to make it happen. Never again. But there's certainly no need to have planking on a deck that nobody will every see.

 

On 12/25/2024 at 3:10 AM, djford said:

And here's the top deck in place, with masts all test fit just because I could:

Very nice.

 

On 12/25/2024 at 3:10 AM, djford said:

In between this and the previous line is a strange pattern of cross hatching - I'm not entirely sure what to do here, so any input would be very appreciated.

Yes, that's a bit of a mystery. I don't think it's an open railing, which was the first thing that came to mind, as it doesn't continue around the stern. But the transom is not the same as the sides - it has to be solid to support the spar that takes the lateen sheet, so maybe that is an open railing after all. But yes, there is a narrow line of stripes above it. Perhaps a broad, painted top rail?

 

On 12/25/2024 at 3:10 AM, djford said:

my next task will be working out how on earth to get 1:80 scale boarding netting to look good. Any suggestions?!

I know McElvogue has shown a wooden support structure in his book, but I'm pretty sure that's speculative - I don't think anything was actually recovered. But I'm pretty sure the remnants of netting he shows are the real thing. I'd say, however, that his idea is practical and is quite probably what was done. Have a look at the "boarding frames" - that is, sort of pergola things that served the same purpose on earlier carracks. McElvogue's design is similar, but with the 'rafters' further apart, which would be sensible as the netting takes the place of the intervening rafters to act as a barrier to boarding. The main issue I had was - how do you deal with the problem of belaying all your rigging lines if a boarding netting is in the way? They normally belay either to the side of the ship or close to the relevant mast, and it's probably possible to work it all out. But you'd have to think it through well in advance so as not to paint yourself into a corner.  To be honest, I had been planning on a boarding netting on my Great Harry, but I chickened out - it all seemed too difficult. Though that was at 1:200 - yours at 1:80 shouldn't be as hard.

 

Steven

 

[Stevinne]

Very nice work.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Don't forget the painting of Henry setting out for Calais - it shows shields all around the top decks - presumably supported by open railings - so archers could shoot through the gaps between shields and still have a lot of protection via the shields.  Also, boarding netting would only be put up when the ship was readied for action with an enemy.  Henry was on a diplomatic mission, so there are no nets in place.