Caldercraft or Euromodel

[Nenseth]

After more than 20 years I´ve startet building some ships again.

So far all models I´ve done have been Billing Boats (Norden, Norske Løve, Bluenose and Sperwer)

Currently working on the viking ship Oseberg.

 

But for next winter I´m already making plans.

 

I´m down to two choieses

 

HMS Victory or HMS Royal William

 

It´s a step up in complexity from my previous builds but I want more of a challange next time.

Maybe trying my hand at some scratch modifications to.

 

But I would like some input as to the difference between the two models

I might be leaning towards the Euromodel but I´m not desided yet

 

-Hans Christian

 

Edited February 15, 2014 by Nenseth

[NMBROOK]

A very good question Hans and welcome to the forum by the way.I think that really the only thing these two kits have in common is roughly the same number of guns.The Caldercraft Victory presents you with excellent instructions and good materials but perhaps limited scope for personalisation.Royal william on the other hand has minimal instructions,probably the best plans in the kit industry,excellent materials and an almost endless scope for modifications,additions and scratchbuild work.Euromodels plans include many details(including interior)relating to the original going far beyond the kit contents allowing modelers to take things as far as they wish.The Royal William does not have the sheer mass of laser cut parts you get with the Victory,instead expecting builders to fashion parts from solid timber themselves.For me,Royal William any day of the week but then again I am biased because I bought the Royal William plans for a future scratchbuild.

 

Kind Regards Nigel

[piratepete007]

Hans ... also a big welcome to MSW forum. I read your comments and also those of Nigel. I would have to concur with everything that Nigel has said about Euromodel ships (except one aspect and see below). The thing that makes them stand out is the amazing detail contained in the drawings, all 14 sheets of which were done by a naval architect. Even detailed drawings for the sails with cloth included. The fascinating thing about Euromodel builds is that they are 'quasi-scratch' and whilst a basic build is possible, the plans are forever inviting you to improvise your own additions. There lies the challenge you seek. Euromodel moves away from the standard 'everything is laser cut and put it all together'. Mind you, the frames, keel, decks and so on are laser cut. ... and the metal decorations are PHENOMENAL.

 

Having said that, 'VinceP' has started a build log of the Royal William on the MSW forum and in addition if you now look at the Euromodel website, you will find that no longer are the 'instructions' minimal. I have spent a considerable amount of time building the RW and adding my interpretive notes on this ship which can be found under 'Customer Assistance'. The notes are extensive but not prescriptive which is why they are on this website and not the MSW forum. There is no way that a precise set of instructions could be written to suit every individual builder but what I have written is there for reference. I also run the Euromodel Helpdesk (from Australia) and questions are usually answered within 24 hours ! I do all of this for fun and it allows me to satisfy my editorial background.

 

Hopefully this will help you make up your mind !

 

Pete

[NMBROOK]

Hans ... also a big welcome to MSW forum. I read your comments and also those of Nigel. I would have to concur with everything that Nigel has said about Euromodel ships (except one aspect and see below). The thing that makes them stand out is the amazing detail contained in the drawings, all 14 sheets of which were done by a naval architect. Even detailed drawings for the sails with cloth included. The fascinating thing about Euromodel builds is that they are 'quasi-scratch' and whilst a basic build is possible, the plans are forever inviting you to improvise your own additions. There lies the challenge you seek. Euromodel moves away from the standard 'everything is laser cut and put it all together'. Mind you, the frames, keel, decks and so on are laser cut. ... and the metal decorations are PHENOMENAL.

 

Having said that, 'VinceP' has started a build log of the Royal William on the MSW forum and in addition if you now look at the Euromodel website, you will find that no longer are the 'instructions' minimal. I have spent a considerable amount of time building the RW and adding my interpretive notes on this ship which can be found under 'Customer Assistance'. The notes are extensive but not prescriptive which is why they are on this website and not the MSW forum. There is no way that a precise set of instructions could be written to suit every individual builder but what I have written is there for reference. I also run the Euromodel Helpdesk (from Australia) and questions are usually answered within 24 hours ! I do all of this for fun and it allows me to satisfy my editorial background.

 

Hopefully this will help you make up your mind !

 

Pete

I am sorry Pete,I have the greatest respect for what your are accomplishing regarding the instruction issue I do not mean to cause offence,your notes ( I have read them myself) would be of great help to anyone building this kit.I did want to stress that the supplied instructions are minimal and to compare them in any way to Caldercrafts three books included with the Victory would give Hans the wrong impression.

 

Kind Regards Nigel

[piratepete007]

That's fine Nigel. No offence taken . I just wanted to emphasise the interpretive nature of Euromodel builds

Pete

[Jean-Pierre]

Let me add a last word.  It should be said that the Caldercraft kit is by far more recent than the Euromodel Royal William.  Keith Julier made a review of the RW in the first issue of his "Period Ship Handbook, which I found in the 70's in Londen.

 

I would certainly go for the Royal William for A simple reason: there are dozens of kits of Victory, and more to come, and I am sure, many thousands of builds have been or are being made of her.  Nothing wrong with that, but if you want to make a model that stands out of the crowd, then the choice is Royal William.

 

And even if I've never built one of these kits, I know that indeed their metal decoration parts are way better than what you see in other Italian kits.  Only a few details aask for some refining like anchors and pinrails, but then this is indeed a very unimportant detail.

 

Happy modelling

 

JP

 

P.S.  an unexperienced modeller could find it frustrating to see so many details on the plans that are not included in the package, but I'm sure all the exterior detail is included.

[demonborger]

What about the other flagship kits such as the Royal Louis by Mamoli or the Sovereign of the Seas/Soleil Royal by Sergal? 

 

The Royal Louis itself can provide a great scope for scratch building, particularly if you want to model it after the contemporary model in the French Naval Museum.

The cast head rails for instance can be scratch built into wood. You can add in LED lights and with plastic windows could give you an amazingly beautiful stern.

You can even try carving a new figure head if that appeals to you.

Edited February 12, 2014 by demonborger

[Nenseth]

Model expo had such a nice deal for the Falmouth from Euromodel so I got one of those

[NMBROOK]

Congratulations Nenseth,a very nice ship and a lovely model  Are you planning a build log?Things are slowly starting to hot up with Euromodels builds

 

Kind Regards Nigel

[maggsl_01]

Thx all for this discussion. I myself plan to build a Euromodel kit someday - Deefflinger as starter, later perhaps the Friedrich Wilhelm. So I am very interested in all aspects coming around with Euromodel. I hope I can visit the factory soon as I often visit Milan for business matters - and Como is just 30 km away....

 

Cheerio

 

Max

[Kevin]

Welcome - i would recommend the Victory, but like to see another RW in build

[Nenseth]

Congratulations Nenseth,a very nice ship and a lovely model  Are you planning a build log?Things are slowly starting to hot up with Euromodels builds

 

Kind Regards Nigel

I´ll try to do a build log I guess, it will probably be quite messy and erronious so feedback will be needed 

Just have to wait for delivery... two to four weeks 

Oh!! And I need to finish my Oseberg (Billing)

 

[NMBROOK]

I am no computer genius Nenseth,I think the thing to remember is to photograph each important step, worry about how to make sense of it in a log later I am sure you will be very pleased with Falmouth when you receive it,and well worth the wait Good luck with your build and I look forward to seeing your log.

 

Kind Regards Nigel

[piratepete007]

The Euromodel Royal William has an incredible array of metal ornamentation across the transom and along the complete sides - but no problem as the detailed drawings are EXACTLY what you get in the kit.

 

So Nenseth is expecting a delivery of the Euromodel Falmouth ? Lucky person and enjoy ! The Euromodel website has some detailed information regarding its build - not a build log or a description of how you assemble the ship but reference material to act as a guide. The beauty is in your interpretation of what is in the drawings and what is in the kit so your build will be very much an individual one.

 

Pete

[Kevin]

http://www.euromodel-ship.com/eng/index.php#axzz2tCs7v4OX

[wq3296]

Greetings Hans,

 

I built the Ajax by Euromodel and found the drawings and materials to be first rate, at least in my experience. The only problem with the Ajax kit was that Euromodel "created" history for it. There was an Ajax at Trafalgar, but it wasn't a frigate - it was a 74 gunner. I don't know why they would do this since there were all kinds of British frigates from that era. Beyond that, the kit materials and drawings were excellent. The drawings are detailed to the extreme, which allows for a very accurate model. However, while these details are very well drawn, the written instructions are minimal. I would say that if the Ajax is typical of Euromodel kits, and you don not have much experience, you should look elsewhere. I am familiar with Caldercraft, having watched their techs develop the Victory prototype on line. It seems that their kits use a lot of plywood which, in my opinion, is not as good as solid wood.

 

wq3296

[Keith_W]

I am familiar with Caldercraft, having watched their techs develop the Victory prototype on line. It seems that their kits use a lot of plywood which, in my opinion, is not as good as solid wood.

 

You referring to Caldercraft using a lot of plywood? Nothing wrong with it IMO, as long as it is structural and not on display. 

[piratepete007]

Having read the above comments regarding the Euromodel Ajax, I feel that some reply is necessary. The plans for all their ships were drawn up by a naval architect, a Mr. Sellas and all were based on primary resources rather than imagination. Much has been said about about the authenticity of this ship and the problem here is that the drawings were based on a German dockyard construction set of references that were returned to that dockyard and have since been lost. The truth of the matter is that the naval architect in question was of impeccable character and it is unlikely that he would have 'fudged' the accuracy. The drawings came from the architect and not the company itself.

 

I know that many will not agree with my explanation but with the background information regarding Euromodel that I now have,I felt moved to 'stand up'.

 

The other confusing issue for us all is that having researched through both large and some very small museums in England, I know that there were a number of ships around those times bearing that name. To compound things further, it was not unusual for a captured ship in good repair to be modified, restored and re-badged with another name. So to look back through the records of just names will often not produce the desired result.

 

I agree with the comment regarding the standard of materials and drawings in the Euromodel kits. They are first class.

 

For those who have read some of my material, I have been producing interpretive files for each of Euromodel ships on their web site. They are not build logs but are reference material relating to how I am building their ships. It is a massive task but I am continually adding to these rather extensive files. I do this only because I love editing and not for any other financial or commercial gain (there is none). Why Euromodel ? Well, they offered space on their website so I went for it. Yes, in past years, there were only minimal 'instructions' in the kits but that is being remedied.

 

Today (within 24 hours due to time differences between Australia and Italy), I am posting on the MSW what I have done for the Ajax - check 'EUROMODEL INTERPRETIVE FILES' in MSW. I also run their Helpdesk for fun and any queries regarding any Euromodel build will always be answered within 24 hours - usually far less. Like so many others on this forum, my desire is to disseminate what I have learnt.

 

Trusting that this proves interesting in some way to some or many !

 

Pete

[Jean-Pierre]

I just paid a visit to the Euromodel site.  Really excellent: site, excellent models, and a very open minded company to show what can be done with their kits, and last but not least, the extra explanations readily available on their site.

 

Drawbacks for Euromodel kits are:

-there is no Victory in their range

-there is neither a Bounty or an Endeavour or a Cutty Sark

-some parts of their kits seem -strangely enough- rather rude (Ex; their thick anchors and pinrails)

-some of their smaller kits, like the Derflinger or the Hanseatic Kogge, do not quite reach the high level of their larger models, but then they can be improved, of course.

 

I am definitely putting this brand on my wish list!

Edited February 16, 2014 by Jean-Pierre

[maggsl_01]

Hi Jean-Pierre...

 

yes... it is really a pity that Euro Model doen NOT have a Victory or Endeavour... So it is almost a shame that we MUST decide between a Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde (what a shipname... and what a glorious ship of the almost - even in Germany - unkown navy of Brandenburg) or a Ajax (Amsterdam? Soccer in model??) or the Derfflinger (what really is a small model and perhaps not so high-Level - but a Beauty and also a Branden-Burger ) No, no... stop kidding now - Euro Model is definetly on my wish-list. I will probaly start with the Derfflinger, but my dream is the Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde...

 

All the best

 

Cheerio

 

Max

[NMBROOK]

I do find it amusing they have Victory as a background on their homepage.I can understand why they haven't made a kit for her,simple reason is it is a saturated market.You have to come up with something different like Chris Watton did i.e. full interior.The kits they do produce sell simply because,apart from the high quality,they offer subjects a little different from the mainstream.Whilst the Euromodels ethos would be interesting applied to Victory,would it make good marketing sense?Just my thoughts.

 

Kind Regards Nigel

[piratepete007]

Nigel - you answer is succinct and pristine and shows an understanding of marketing skills ! The market out there must be very competitive and so to survive, something different must be offered. That is why Euromodel does so well by presenting ships such as a mixture of German, French and English origins with a mix of frigates and merchantman-type uses. I have made my comments (above) regarding the Ajax so nothing further there. The magnificent Friederich Wilhelm (add on 'zu Pferde' for 'horseman') is the ship of my dreams. Not on my wish list but currently building her and the challenges she poses are just so fascinating. Opportunities for a little wood carving are thrown in as well. I have just completed (almost) - bar the painting - the construction of one of her boats and must admit this was something I was prepared to ignore. Just a marvelous diversion from the actual ship. Refer to 'Euromodel Interpretive Files' and Ship's Boat'  postings which I am about to do.

 

Jean-Pierre made a comment about the standard of anchor size in Euromodel's kits. In looking at ships like the Royal William (and others), the data contained in historical records shows just how variable anchor size is between ships. How many builders just accept the anchors provided and assume that they are naturally correct ? For this reason, Euromodel supplies a limited range of anchor sizes all of which allow for individuals to modify their size as they wish. Their drawings in each case do give a good indication of correct size. From what I have seen (and I may be wrong) drawings from elsewhere do not necessarily state anchor dimensions. In the case of the Royal William, I took on the challenge of re-shaping the anchors to what they should be and that in itself was an interesting exercise. Two photos attached illustrate some of what I did.

 

[NMBROOK]

Thank you very much indeed Pete    I agree with the anchor situation.Most ships carried anchors of varying size and they were selected accordingly to the task in hand.Most kits supply one size anchor(a generic fitting from there range) and say simply there is your anchor.The difference is the information is there in the Euromodels drawings to adapt the supplied anchors should the builder wish to increase the level of accuracy,whereas the normal scenario is the kit anchor is the one shown on the drawing.Researching anchor sizes can take as long as the rest of the ship,so it is great that Euromodels has done this part already.Personally I would rather spend my time researching other more interesting parts of the ship,so thank you euromodels .I shall check your boat out Pete as I know we spoke earlier on the subject

 

Kind Regards

Nigel

Edited February 16, 2014 by NMBROOK

[piratepete007]

Thanks Nigel. Just trying to give a balanced view of things and hoping that people like you can confirm what I am saying. I just try to think 'out of the square' a little and maintain the 'logicity' of my brain. Hope there is such a word ?

 

There is no doubt that the Euromodel drawings are so comprehensive in their detail

 

Pete

[NMBROOK]

I know what you mean Pete   I think the important thing is that all kit manufacturers have to maintain their profitabilty and some compromises have to be made to maintain that.Euromodels(no I am not on their payroll   ) do supply the information to address these compromises.Many of us have followed the outstanding work Chris Watton has done with the work he has done for Amati in the development of their Victory kit,however it may sound pessimistic but I reserve judgement until I see a production kit.Things may be changed to reduce production costs when Amati get their hands on the mass production side of things.I hope not,as it is certainly the finest Victory kit developed(another reason for Euro models to leave alone).Something else as we are on the subject.There are some inaccuracies on Mordaunt's design that does not tie in with historical information,however for Euromodels to produce an accurate rendition of the stern and prow area(which is actually ridiculously complicated for what it is)would have meant the price would be in Royal William league,nobody would buy it!Anyway off my soapbox,I'm going to check your boat out Pete  

 

Kind Regards Nigel

[Keith_W]

Pete, I would like to thank you for going through the trouble of providing the interpretative files which are found on Euromodel's website. I am researching my next build and I would like to tackle either the Friedrich Wilhelm or the Royal William. I am a little disappointed by some of their fittings, e.g. the lanterns and the windows - but there is no reason why I can't scratch build them myself. Well, apart from severe lack of skill, I suppose. It would be nice if these parts were photoetched instead of cast metal, IMO. A photoetched window frame looks much more realistic, and there is no easy way for modellers to make their own photoetched parts. 

[piratepete007]

Thanks for that Amfibius. Maybe I get carried away with things at times but I just feel that if I can pass on some ideas to other builders, then I am a 'Happy Little Vegemite' - apologies to non-Australians, but Vegemite is a distinctly Australian spread over toast that we just love. Now back to ship stuff. I have never posted an actual build log as such but am content to build up reference files on the Euromodel website (and like Nigel, I am not on their payroll). I will definitely pass on your comments re photoetching to Euromodel.

 

Friederich Wilhelm or Royal William I hear you say ? Both are equally impressive to build. The Royal William would be the cream of English builds and the Friederich Wilhelm has so many different twists and turns that are not your standard comfort things to do. That is not to say that it is any more difficult but it is different. Neither are cheap BUT the investment in time spent and overall quality is rock solid.... and their are other different styled ships as well.

 

Pete

[Keith_W]

Pete, I can tell you that I downloaded all your PDF's onto my tablet and I read them in bed every night before I go to sleep. When my alarm went off this morning I found myself dreaming about how i'm going to paint that little horseman on the Friedrich Wilhelm  

 

Re: the lanterns and windows - paint is no substitute for being able to see through it. I am not sure if I can fabricate wooden parts that small. If I were to tackle the kit, I would probably solder brass strips together and then sand them down to the required thickness. 

[piratepete007]

Amfibius - downloading my pdf's onto a tablet, reading in bed and dreaming about ships - you do have a problem (just joking !). I see Euromodel have a free app called FeedReady which will notify you of any updates that I have posted, so that should keep you going !

 

That horseman on the transom is one little challenge as you will have seen. Do you draw the figure and paint it in or do you carve it in 3D like I did ? That is the beauty of Euromodel ships which keep presenting alternative approaches. So it will be with the windows and lanterns and as you say, brass strips etc would be useful for the lanterns. Not something I have tried to do as yet.

 

Happy dreaming

 

Pete

PS apologies for any flippancy !

[Jean-Pierre]

Thank you for the answer on the anchors.  I can see that you also felt that something had to be done about them.  The point is that considering the high level of quality of these kits, it is a shame that so poorly deviced items are actually included.  A shame because even excellent modellers are tempted to use kit parts as they come.  I download quite a few build log pictures and here is a pic of the kit items for the Renommée, and the resulting item on the model.  Then here is also a picture of a Japanese built Mordaunt.  Both superb models,  ... except for the anchors.  (Please note that my pics of the Derflinger show much better anchors)