HMS Lyme (1748-1760) by Landlubber Mike - bash of Corel Unicorn - Scale 1:75 (CLOSED TO START SCRATCH BUILD)

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks Ian.  So far everything is working out nicely, but before I get too excited, I have to see how well I pull this all off 

 

I posted this on my Pegasus log, but I thought I would post it here as well to get your thoughts and thoughts from others that have been following my Unicorn log.  Recently, I've been strongly considering building this kit as the Lyme, rather than the Unicorn.  There are a few reasons for this:  (1) the stern and galleries would be much easier to execute from scratch I think, and in my opinion, look nicer than that of the Unicorn; (2) the figureheads would take about the same amount of carving and skill, and (3) the quarterdeck bulwarks would be easier to execute with the full portholes, and again, would probably look nicer than the Unicorn.  There are some minor differences like the railings, but I think the main consideration is whether I want to build a ship with a beakhead bulkhead (the Unicorn), or go with a rounded bow like the Lyme.  I think the beakhead is a cool feature, but I'm not wedded to it as the stern transom and galleries, and the figurehead, are all more interesting to look at.

 

Just curious what you and others think on this change of plans.  I still have a little time to think about it, but probably need to come to a decision before the first planking so that I can frame out the rounded bow if I went the Lyme route.

[ianmajor]

Mike,

 

I like the idea. When I saw the contemporary plans available for Lyme I did think "If I was starting again I might be tempted to build the Lyme".

 

I believe the Unicorn was just about unique. The later developments of the frigates seem to have been based primarily on the Lyme. This makes Unicorn an interesting ship to model - the significance of this would be lost on most observers I fear.

 

However on the other side of the coin there are plenty of models Unicorn but I have not seen many (any?) of the Lyme. So this makes for a unique model. It would certainly overcome the problem of the first bulkhead being too far back!  The Lyme diagrams are better than the Chapman ones, particularly around the layout of the upper deck. If you decide to go that way I think it could be an exciting project.

 

Apart from the beakhead versus round bow the main external differences noted are:

 

1)  the galleries on Unicorn have two windows each side, Lyme has three

2) Lyme has an extra pair of round ports on the quarter deck than Unicorn.

 

Getting to see the higher detail from full size copies of the actual plans may reveal more items of change. If you decide to get a set of Lyme plans let me know the reference numbers and I will send for a set as well. I will be able to compare notes with you (including how to frame them and hang them on the wall  )

[ianmajor]

Mike,

 

I think another item on Unicorn/Lyme that would give variety from your Pegasus is the mizzen mast. During the period of the Lyme class the mizzen was lateen rigged. However if I understand correctly from Lees the sail on the mizzen yard was laced to the mizzen mast. Thus ships in the Lyme period were a half way house between the true lateen rigging and the later gaff based versions. I don't know where I found this photo - I think it was on MSW 1 - but it illustrates what I mean.

 

 

 

[JohnB40]

Hi Mike,

 

I think the carefully thought out alterations you have set out in your latest posts will greatly enhance your build,if I was not so far along with my build I gladly copy your ideas exactly.

Ian is spot on regarding your eyes being drawn to the companion way and false deck below. After seeing your deck plan,I am thinking I might construct a prefab companion way similar to Ian's and drop it in place,the stairs/ladder leading down into darkness.

Whether you chose to build as the Unicorn or Lyme is a personal choice....One I would procrastinate about indefinitely. I also wish I had the foresight to drill the hole in the beak for the bowsprit at the bulkhead construction phase,the correct alignment is so much easier at that stage. I look forward to your plans for waist area....... My old eyes have a hard job reading the Lyme plans.

 

John

 

[Stockholm tar]

Mike,

 

You've gone into this kit, and its failings, in great detail. I don't know either kit, but if everything points to the Lyme as being the vessel to go for then I say – do what your heart, and head, tell you.

 

Your log, and the way you have overcome the many problems (and found new ones), is an inspiration. It's great reading already – so I think it can only get more interesting with the change to the new ship! You have great support in Ian too – even to him buying a set of Lyme plans as well!

 

Btw, I believe the lateen yard was retained for some while after the sail forward of the mast disappeared, as it could be used as a square sail yard, should one get shot away or severly damaged in battle. I believe the Victory retained hers until around the mid 1790's.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Stockholm tar

[Landlubber Mike]

Hi Ian, thanks for the thoughts.  A collateral benefit of going the Lyme route and having a unique build is that my build won't be compared to the gorgeous Unicorn builds out there 

 

I did see that about the external differences.  The rails might be slightly different, with the ends of the railings on the Unicorn slightly more decorative.  Interestingly, it looks like big middle stern gallery window might pop up onto the quarterdeck, or end just at it.  Also, in the two profile plans, the second has what looks like two portholes in the transom, whereas the first plan, from the transom decoration, doesn't look like it would accommodate two portfolios.

 

On the plans below, do you know what the rail looking thing is that extends above the transom in the stern view?  It looks like railings, but I think the bulwark sides of the quarterdeck are solid given that the portholes are shown.

 

[ianmajor]

Mike,

 

Both Lyme class frigates had open bulwarks around the quarter deck, these extended down both sides and around the rear. The port holes are shown as complete circles but if you look at the stump of the mizzen mast it should show below the rail (it certainly does on the Chapman plans) which indicates an open bulwark.

Edited July 15, 2014 by ianmajor

[Landlubber Mike]

Ian, thanks for the pic on the lateen rigging of the mizzen.  I remember you mentioning this a while back, but this picture is very helpful.

 

John, feel free to borrow away if there is anything that works.  That's what's been great about these forums.  Frankly, I think I would still be working on my Badger and less far along the learning curve if MSW and all my friends here weren't around  I think you've diagnosed maybe what is a subconscious desire to procrastinate on the build.  I feel like I've done so much planning and thinking the past few months will little to show for it.  Last night felt really good in actually moving the build along.

 

Kester, thanks very much for the kind words.  I'm glad you enjoy reading my log.  Sometimes I feel like I am a bit wordy and with a tendency to point out issues and questions, rather than posting progress with pictures to make the log interesting  Hopefully now that a lot of the planning and structural issues are mostly resolved, I can starting making some progress.

[ianmajor]

Mike,

 

Just had a look around a few models. The NMM held model of Lowestoft has the open bulwark all around the quarter deck.

You can just make it out if the blow the attached picture up a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

[Landlubber Mike]

Mike,

 

Both Lyme class frigates had open bulwarks around the quarter deck, these extended down both sides and around the rear. The port holes are shown as complete circles but if you look at the stump of the mizzen mast it should show below the rail (it certainly does on the Chapman plans) which indicates an open bulwark.

Do the Chapman plans show the mizzen below the rail?  Looking at the link below, I can see where that is the case on the upper ship plans, but not on the Unicorn plans below.  Not that Corel has it right or anything, but Corel has solid bulwarks around the portholes I thought?

 

Looking at the Lyme plans, however, I see what you mean by the mizzen extending below the top rail.  That's a very cool look, as you can see more of the details from the profile like the capstan.  Interestingly, it also looks like the second of the profile plans shows what might be posts for the swivel guns.   

 

Looking at the second of the profile plans, it looks like the portholes have vertical frames to either side to support them - for a minute there, I thought they must have discovered levitation back then   Supporting the portholes with vertical frames should make it much easier to add the portholes - I was a bit nervous as to drilling holes of the proper orientation into the bulwarks to cleanly fit the portholes.

 

Thanks for the picture of the Lowestoft.  It's one of my favorite models on the NMM site.  I love the way the railing looks!

 

Hmm, maybe this is all telling me to go with the Lyme?  How do I go about changing the title of my build log?  

Edited July 15, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[ianmajor]

Mike,

 

Hum well spotted - just had another look at Chapman and it does,'t show an open bulwark (Lyme does). Doh. I think there should be an open rail there - he has left it off IMHO. My reason for thinking this is that if you follow the quarter deck line to the foremost circular port then measure from the deck to the top of the bulwark shown, I make it 2ft tall. At that height we would have the risk of the officers falling over board. The foremost circular ports opening to free space is a bit unlikely as well.

[Landlubber Mike]

Mike,

 

Hum well spotted - just had another look at Chapman and it does,'t show an open bulwark (Lyme does). Doh. I think there should be an open rail there - he has left it off IMHO. My reason for thinking this is that if you follow the quarter deck line to the foremost circular port then measure from the deck to the top of the bulwark shown, I make it 2ft tall. At that height we would have the risk of the officers falling over board. The foremost circular ports opening to free space is a bit unlikely as well.

 

Hi Ian,

 

I agree with you on what seems to be a big safety issue.  That's one thing that has always made things unsettled for me regarding Chapman's plans and the raised quarterdeck.  I couldn't find any other ships that had open portholes like Chapman's Unicorn.  And ships that did have a raised quarterdeck either had solid bulwarks or a rail.  As a result, I thought there might be a bit of detail missing from his plans - kinda like how the two Lyme plans differ in what details are shown.

[ianmajor]

Now if you doooo want to change the title, then I believe it is go to entry one and hit edit.............     

[Landlubber Mike]

I made a little more progress the last few days, installing the remainder of the first 15 bulkheads.  Unlike the Badger where I pretty much glued them all to the keel in probably the span of an hour, I took my time on the Unicorn as there was more play with the keel that I cut, and I didn't appreciate the importance of squaring things with the Badger    So, I glued one bulkhead at a time, using squares, levels, etc., and letting the glue dry at least an hour before moving on.  Probably a little on the cautious side, but I figured it's more important to get it right and square.

 

Since I plan to frame the stern, I won't be using bulkhead 17, at least where the kit would have you add it.  The kit has you add it to the very end of the stern, and then attach the cast metal stern to it.  Instead, I'm going to sit bulkhead 17 right up against the after face of bulkhead 16, and cut notches into it to seat the stern frame extensions.  This should work well because bulkhead 17 is the lateral width of the stern (not including the transom), so by seating the outer extensions into the two sides of the bulkhead, I should be able to frame the end of the ship for both the transom and the planking for the sides of the ship.

 

Here are some pictures, including some with the false lower deck and upper deck dry fitted.  Despite the plans being all over the place and not consistent with the kit parts, the kits parts fit very well together.  Next I plan to add some bulkhead supports to maintain the squareness of the bulkheads, especially since the plywood used for the bulkheads is a bit on the flexible side.  

 

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[Landlubber Mike]

I received my set of pedestals in the mail recently, so I'm going to fix nuts inside the keel rather than use the wood screws that come with the kit.  i had a question though - in looking at the kit plans and plans for other similar ships, it looks like the keel is relatively parallel to the waterline.  Is that typical?  The Badger's keel dropped lower as you approached the stern, so I used a taller pedestal for the fore area and a shorter pedestal in the aft area.  Given that the keel seems to be more parallel, It looks like I'll need to use pedestals that are the same height.  It looks like from Spyglass' Pegasus pictures that he used pedestals of a similar height, so it's very likely that the Pegasus keel is parallel to the waterline as well.

 

Second question - I plan on using boxwood for the decks.  Should I use boxwood for the false lower deck?  It seems like I could get away using different wood given that the lower deck will be mostly covered with gratings and the ladder for the companionways (and I might cover the waist with small boats), but I figured I would ask.  

 

I haven't yet made a decision on whether to build the model as the Unicorn or the Lyme.  I ordered the Lyme plans from the NMM, so once I see the transom and other decorations, I can figure out which looks nicer, and probably more importantly, which I am more likely to successfully pull off    From what I can tell looking at the Chapman plans against the NMM Lyme online plans, aside from the beakhead versus rounded bow, and some minor cosmetic things like railings and numbers of portholes, the ships are pretty much identical.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[Landlubber Mike]

Haven't cut the holes for the rods.  You're right that they would have been a lot easier to fit before adding the bulkheads, but I think I should be able to manage.  I needed to order the pedestals, plus, I wanted to get a little further along in figuring out where the stern will end up in order to properly center/position the pedestals.  Wish me luck 

[Landlubber Mike]

You're right Spyglass - I looked at the plans and the stern does drop a bit.  I must have mis-measured a while back. 

[ianmajor]

Wot - no toes in the top down views!        

[Landlubber Mike]

Ha!  I can take some if you want -- my wife might let me come back on this board though 

[jwvolz]

Mike,

 

I made my own pedestals and the stern was definitely lower than the bow one. Can't remotely recall by how much. 

[Landlubber Mike]

I made some more progress this weekend by installing braces between the bulkheads and the mounting nuts for the display pedestals.  It's interesting how much prep work goes into a build in the early stages just to ensure a good base for things, when one just wants to jump to putting the model together when the kit box is open.

 

 

First, I added braces of 5mm plywood in between the bulkheads.  I found that the bulkheads had a bit of flex to them at the ends, but now with the braces, there is no flex whatsoever (except at the very tops that frame the bulwarks for the fore deck and quarterdeck).  Not sure if this is just wishful thinking, but the hull feels like it's built like a tank now.

 

I also worked on installing the mounting nuts for the pedestals.  Given that the waterline is not parallel to the keel bottom (thanks Spyglass!), I'm using different sized pedestals -- 1 3/8" for the front and 1 1/8" for the back from Model Expo (each with 3/16" slots that work nicely with the 5mm keel).  Rather than using the wood screws that came with the pedestals, I'm using 2-inch long #6 machine screws and nuts.  On my Badger I used the wood screws, but found it very hard to get the keel mounted perfectly, and there is a very slight lean that I could never fully fix.   So, hopefully in mounting the the nuts parallel to the baseboard, I wont run into that problem on this build.

 

After drawing the waterline, I drew the screw lines perpendicular to that line.  Then I drew a line line perpendicular to the screw lines where the nut will sit.  With the different heights of the pedestals yet the same 2" screw, you can see that the rear nut will sit lower on the keel that the front nut.  Then it was a matter of drilling and filing a flat seat for the nut, and then drilling the hole from the bottom of the keel up into the keel for the screw.  I started with a pilot hole using a no-walk bit, then worked my way up about a half dozen or so bits until I reached the diameter of the machine screw.  The Hobbymill pear drilled very cleanly - the wood really machines very well.  The plywood didn't hold up so well, particularly for the rear pedestal where the screw line ran through the thinner section under the bearding line and the plywood flaked off.  But, since all this is covered it anyway, it should be fine.  Next step will be the epoxy the nuts in, but since I hate working with that nasty stuff, I think I'm going to do it the same time I epoxy the nuts into my Pegasus build.

 

I'm waiting on the NMM plans of the Lyme before making a decision on which ship to build.  So, I probably won't have many updates until then, as the next major section to tackle will be to frame the stern and install slots for the masts in the keel to help lock them in.  The sterns should be very similar, but it's probably better that I wait until the Lyme plans arrive.  

 

In the meantime, I'll plan to try out the various stains and dyes that I have, to figure out which to go with.  I have some dyes and stains from General Finishes in both black and reds, as well as Fieblings black shoe leather dye.  Hopefully these give me the look that I'm going for.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[ianmajor]

Mike,

 

The hull is looking very good. As you say time spent at this stage is hugely rewarded at later stages of the build.

 

I await with interest your decision on the Lyme/Unicorn question. Whichever way, we will see a far more accurate model emerging than the basic kit provides.

Edited July 21, 2014 by ianmajor

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks very much Ian.  The Pegasus plans took about two weeks from my order date to arrive, so hopefully I'll have the Lyme plans sometime next week.  I'll let you know how they look.  If they are half as nice as the Pegasus plans, I'll be very happy.

 

Spyglass, thanks for those tips.  I used epoxy once before on some gardening equipment, and while it does the job, it's pretty nasty smelling stuff.  Definitely a job you want to do outdoors.  I don't think I'll need much more than a dot of the stuff on each end given it's holding power, but it's so thick that I worry about getting too much into the slot and it fouling up the threads.  Good tip on keeping the thread moving.  That's also a very good tip on filing down the ends of the screws.  The machine screws I'm using have a very fine thread, so starting them into the nut requires precise alignment.  

 

I should also start working on the cradle/baseboard, that's a great idea.  On my Badger, I used the kit cradle to store the ship when I was on the hull planking and other early stages of the build, and then installed it onto its permanent display board once I was onto the rigging stage.  Then, I just glued the display board onto the display case baseboard when the model was done.  This time I'm planning on doing something a little different for the final display, where the pedestals will sit directly on the display case baseboard since I think that should have a cleaner look.  I'll still need to come up with a temporary build board in the meantime - I might use the kit cradle, or I might just cut out a piece of MDF for additional stability.

 

Two quick questions if you don't mind:

 

1.  I saw that you added blocks on either side of the nuts.  Is that to help lock in lateral stability?  The nuts are slightly wider than the 5mm keel, so I might have to file the corners down a bit so that the sides are flush with the keel.

 

2.  Rather than installing the nuts into the keel, have you ever considered installing the screw/bolt/rod into the keel, essentially reversing the set up with the head of the screw in the keel slot?  I think that approach would avoid two problems:  (1) epoxy getting into the threads of the nut, as you don't really care about the threads at the head of the screw; and (2) it might be a little easier to thread the nut onto the screw, rather than thread the screw into a nut that is hidden within the keel.  You can also epoxy the length of the screw in the keel for added stability.  The downsides of that approach are:  (1) to install the screw, you will likely need to create a slot into the keel along the full length of the screw (not so big a deal as the slot will be hidden by the planking and the pedestal brackets); and (2) you will be stuck working on the model with the screw ends sticking out of the bottom of the keel.  I'm not sure that I've seen this approach used before, which tells me there is a bigger pitfall out there that I'm not seeing.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Landlubber Mike]

Thank you!  That makes a lot of sense.

 

Do you see any downside of fixing the head of the screw into the keel, rather than the nut?

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks, sorry, I jumped the gun

 

On the nuts getting loose issue, I was thinking that once I epoxied the nuts in, I would fit in some wood on top of the nut on either side of the screw path so that the nut can't get loose in the vertical plane.  Then, with the side pieces of scrap wood, the nut would be more secure on the horizontal plane.

 

I'm going to have to think about this a little more.  I imagine that the screw ends pointing out can be a nuisance over time, but maybe that's all the more reason to attach the model to a temporary baseboard at an earlier stage than I did with my Badger (lap modeling isn't very safe for your build as I can attest).  I need to see how long the screws are relative to the pedestals and with respect to a future display board.  You probably need to drill a deeper/wider countersink hole from the bottom of the final display baseboard, but that shouldn't cause too many problems.

 

I appreciate the permanence issue of inserting the screw into the hull, but I wonder what the chance is of ever needing to take it out?

Edited July 21, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[Landlubber Mike]

Hi Spyglass, thanks for that.  I'm going to think a little more on which way I want the bolts to sit.  Maybe it is just safer to install the nut in the keel...

 

I just took a look at the packaging for my "bolts" - they are called "machine screws" even though they look like your typical bolt

[ianmajor]

Mike,

 

To answer the "machine screws" conundrum have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw . It has descriptions of different types of screws, bolts, heads and (some but not all) thread types plus links to some standards pages. As it states there is no universally accepted definition of the difference between the types of fasteners known as screws and bolts!   So it gives the (US) Machinery's Handbook definition viz:-

 

"A bolt is an externally threaded fastener designed for insertion through holes in assembled parts, and is normally intended to be tightened or released by torquing a nut. A screw is an externally threaded fastener capable of being inserted into holes in assembled parts, of mating with a preformed internal thread or forming its own thread, and of being tightened or released by torquing the head. An externally threaded fastener which is prevented from being turned during assembly and which can be tightened or released only by torquing a nut is a bolt. (Example: round head bolts, track bolts, plow bolts.) An externally threaded fastener that has thread form which prohibits assembly with a nut having a straight thread of multiple pitch length is a screw. (Example: wood screws, tapping screws.)" 

 

It is worth noting the photos that show the first turn of thread on bolts is relieved. This gives a tidy start to the thread and helps to thread the bolt in the tapped hole/nut.  

Edited July 22, 2014 by ianmajor

[ianmajor]

Mike,

 

BTW I am making my way through a rigging schedule for Unicorn (I will let you have a copy for comment, correction,use..whatever ). The approach I am using is to take the belaying plan of a 20 gun ship of 1719 from Lees (page 170) then applying the changes to rigging that occurred between 1719 and 1748 to get an as built view, then noting the changes from 1749 to 1771 to get a view of how the rigging may have looked during its time.

 

In doing this I came across the entry:

 

"1745 - Introduction of Gaffs on the mizen sail of small ships." 

 

So much for the lateen rigged mizen on Unicorn. Shame - I thought that it would look really good.  No boom, though, until 1793.

 

 

[Landlubber Mike]

Nice Ian, I really appreciate you sharing your research  That sounds like a good way to approach the belaying plan.

 

Ah, too bad about the lateen rigged mizen    That would have been a fun detail on the ship.

[Landlubber Mike]

Good news!  I received an email from the NMM today that my Lyme plans are on their way.  I imagine that I should get them sometime late next week, so I can report back on how they look and hopefully, make a decision on whether to build the kit as the Unicorn or as the Lyme.

 

In the meantime, I tried out a couple of reddish "dye stains" from General Finishes as possibilities for the bulwark planking, gun carriages, and maybe some of the deck items.  The colors are Empire Red and Cinnamon.  I took some pics, but it's always a bit tricky to get the colors in pictures to match the real life hues.  I got pretty close though.  I first tried the colors out on some warped plywood that I had, and then thought that it made more sense to try then on scrap pieces of the actual woods I would most likely use them on, like walnut (including the walnut gun carriages in the kit) and pear.  Also in the pictures is a piece of scrap pear that was only treated with tung oil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really like both colors.  The Empire Red has a bit more red to it, while the Cinnamon has more brown to it.  I probably like the Empire Red on the scrap walnut the best, but it didn't come out very well on the walnut gun carriage -- might need to pre-treat them with sanding sealer.  But, I think either could be viable options if I wanted to add a red ochre-ish color to my build.