Virginia 1819 by cmann - FINISHED - Artesania Latina

[cmann]

Hi, as the title says I am about to start building the Virginia 1819 by Artesania Latina.
This will be my first model ship that I have built, I've gone through instructions and before I start I have a few general question:
 
1. What glue should I use?
The instructions have a General Tips section where they mention three different glues: white glue (carpenters glue), contact glue (shoemakers glue), and quick-drying glue.
Except in one, or maybe two, places they do not specify what glue to use.
 
2. When should I varnish the parts?
The instructions do mention that I should varnish the hull before attaching anything to it, does that include the railings, stem and keel?
What about the other parts? For the smaller assemblies should I varnish each individual piece before glueing them together or should I varnish the entire part after it has been out together and before it is attached to the hull?
 
3. Painting or remaking small metal parts
Some of the parts they provided are metal (silvery in colour, maybe pewter) but in the instructions they look more like wood or maybe copper, it is hard to tell.
Two of the parts are almost just rectangular posts and are not structural in any way so I am thinking about getting some spare apple-wood, which is what the other parts are made of, and remaking it myself.
Should I do this or is it better or easier to just paint them, and if so what is the best thing to paint the with to get the best look?
 
4. Spanker gaff metal parts
(Hopefully I'v used the right terminology here)
The three parts (labelled gaff cheeks in the instructions) that connect the booms/gaffs to the masts are also made from metal and again in the pictures they look like they are made out of wood.
These are more complex in shape and since they also need to support the booms and sails I think it would be safer to not remake them.
The same as the previous question, if I do paint them what is the best way to do it?
 
5. Assembling the deck
Once the frames are aligned with the false keel and pinned to the deck it says to glue them together with a 30% mixture of glue and water, what is the purpose of the diluted glue here? why not just use the glue as is?

6. What other tools and materials are required?
I have read through the instructions and compiled a list of the obvious tools and materials that I will need, is there anything that I may need that isn't obvious but will be helpful or essential to building the model?

[dgbot]

Welcome to M.S.W.2.  It is nice that you read the manual.  However you are thinking too far in advance at the moment.  As for your questions, for most of your build until you get to the planking white glue or carpenters glue will be all you will need.  The first thing you have to worry about is the placement of the bulkheads and making sure they are properly fitted.  Then the false deck is glued in place, you do not need to dilute the glue for this.  These two phases are important for a straight hull so my advice would be to work on this first.  Also try and get some books to help out.  Ship Models from Kits by David Griffith, Ship Modeling Simplified by Frank Mastitni. and Planking Techniques for Model Shipbuilders by Donald Dressel.  These will give you answers for many of your unasked questions.  All three are on Amazon.  Also look through some of the build logs for kits by the same company, this will help you out tremendously as well.

David B

[sygreen]

Hi cmann,

I am also new to model shipbuilding and plan to start  my  first model. I will start my build log shortly

I have chosen the ship baltic ship Scotland.

I would enjoy following you as we may have many of the same questions   

    

 

[Littlebob]

Hi glad too see another Virginia build, check mine out if you wish I am about 80% done, maybe you will get some ideas for your build.

 

As for question 2 and 4 several of the parts Latina has supplied are metal but on the cover shot they are wood, there is no reason not to use the metal parts, I chose to scratch build them both for looks and one of my cheeks was badly bent. if you use the metal parts you will have to use super glue.

 

Question 5 I did not bother to dilute the glue no need.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Robert Vaglio

[cmann]

Thanks for the replies.
 

Welcome to M.S.W.2.  It is nice that you read the manual.  However you are thinking too far in advance at the moment.  As for your questions, for most of your build until you get to the planking white glue or carpenters glue will be all you will need.  The first thing you have to worry about is the placement of the bulkheads and making sure they are properly fitted.  Then the false deck is glued in place, you do not need to dilute the glue for this.  These two phases are important for a straight hull so my advice would be to work on this first.  Also try and get some books to help out.  Ship Models from Kits by David Griffith, Ship Modeling Simplified by Frank Mastitni. and Planking Techniques for Model Shipbuilders by Donald Dressel.  These will give you answers for many of your unasked questions.  All three are on Amazon.  Also look through some of the build logs for kits by the same company, this will help you out tremendously as well.
David B

The reason I have looked so far ahead is so that I can get most of what I need in one go instead of having to take separate trips every few days or having to stop in the middle of something when I realise that I don't have the right tools or materials to continue.
I would also like to get the books but right now it would be a bit too expensive for me.
 

Hi glad too see another Virginia build, check mine out if you wish I am about 80% done, maybe you will get some ideas for your build.

As for question 2 and 4 several of the parts Latina has supplied are metal but on the cover shot they are wood, there is no reason not to use the metal parts, I chose to scratch build them both for looks and one of my cheeks was badly bent. if you use the metal parts you will have to use super glue.

Question 5 I did not bother to dilute the glue no need.

Thanks, your ship looks good and I think it will be very helpful.

I did search the forums and found one or two other build logs for this model that I have bookmarked but I must have missed yours.

[Ramzister]

I have just started the same build. Check the large color poster to see if the rigging diagram on the back is scrambled. Mine was. I had Artesania Latina send me a corrected copy. I've posted it in the Rigging subcategory.

[cmann]

I have just started the same build. Check the large color poster to see if the rigging diagram on the back is scrambled. Mine was. I had Artesania Latina send me a corrected copy. I've posted it in the Rigging subcategory.

Thanks, mine is also scrambled so this will help a lot.

[cmann]

I have just gone to the hobby shop to pick up one or two things before I start and the owner absolutely insisted that I used this specific superglue that he had called Cyno Bond to build the entire model instead of white glue, he seemed pretty confident about it so I got the glue and if it doesn't work out I can always switch to white glue.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, is there any reason I shouldn't use this stuff?

[testazyk]

Hi Cmann--I built the Virginia as my first build and it's a great way to get started.

 

I'll take a shot at some of your questions.

 

1.  Glue--most of the time (90%+) you'll only need regular carpenters glue.  You need epoxy or superglue (cyano) for attaching metal to wood.  Superglue is also good for dabbing on rigging knots so they don't come loose. 

2.  Varnishing--my advice is to wait as long a possible to varnish.  Glue doesn't work as well on varnished wood and you want all your bonds to be tight.  At the same time, it's a good idea to varnish the ends of timber that you will be sanding because that seals the grain and minimises the chance of splitting.

3. Painting or remaking--do whatever your skill/taste makes you feel most comfortable with.  I think a lot of people here would agree that a lot of the metal furnishings in kits are not the best quality so making your own is usually a good idea.  And definitely paint anything that doesn't look natural.

4.  I think those are brass strips which you can cut to size and use superglue or epoxy to secure.  Be sure to flatten the boom ends so the jaws lay flat.  You could also drill a hole through both the boom and the jaw and secure it with a nail like a rivet for extra holding.

5.  I don't know why they want you to dilute the glue.  The joints wont be visible and you want them to be very secure. 

6.  There are some good threads here on desirable tools and you will accumulate what you need as you go.  I wouldn't over invest at this point but a good electric hobby drill is very useful and I'd recommend an electric plank bender (from aeropiccola) which makes life a lot easier when planking a hull.  Also lots of sandpaper and some good small files and a small hammer and you should be in business.

 

Good luck and in response to what the hobby guy said about cyano glue--I wouldn't use it unless you have to--the fumes are nasty and it's hard to work with.

 

Tom

[cmann]

Hi Cmann--I built the Virginia as my first build and it's a great way to get started.

 

I'll take a shot at some of your questions.

 

1.  Glue--most of the time (90%+) you'll only need regular carpenters glue.  You need epoxy or superglue (cyano) for attaching metal to wood.  Superglue is also good for dabbing on rigging knots so they don't come loose. 

2.  Varnishing--my advice is to wait as long a possible to varnish.  Glue doesn't work as well on varnished wood and you want all your bonds to be tight.  At the same time, it's a good idea to varnish the ends of timber that you will be sanding because that seals the grain and minimises the chance of splitting.

3. Painting or remaking--do whatever your skill/taste makes you feel most comfortable with.  I think a lot of people here would agree that a lot of the metal furnishings in kits are not the best quality so making your own is usually a good idea.  And definitely paint anything that doesn't look natural.

4.  I think those are brass strips which you can cut to size and use superglue or epoxy to secure.  Be sure to flatten the boom ends so the jaws lay flat.  You could also drill a hole through both the boom and the jaw and secure it with a nail like a rivet for extra holding.

5.  I don't know why they want you to dilute the glue.  The joints wont be visible and you want them to be very secure. 

6.  There are some good threads here on desirable tools and you will accumulate what you need as you go.  I wouldn't over invest at this point but a good electric hobby drill is very useful and I'd recommend an electric plank bender (from aeropiccola) which makes life a lot easier when planking a hull.  Also lots of sandpaper and some good small files and a small hammer and you should be in business.

 

Good luck and in response to what the hobby guy said about cyano glue--I wouldn't use it unless you have to--the fumes are nasty and it's hard to work with.

 

Tom

Thanks for the information.

I think I'll stick with the white glue for now, it may take longer to dry but it will be a lot more forgiving than super glue.

[dgbot]

A good rule of thumb in this hobby is to never be impatient.  While one piece is drying start on another project.

David B

[Littlebob]

There is a very good reason for not just using super glues, working time, you get little or none. I think in most cases you are better off with the wood glue this way if you need to shift or remove a part you have a much longer working time.

[cmann]

When the deck is attached to the frame it will have to bend a little bit, the instructions don't mention anything but I would just like to double check: is it necessary to dampen the deck before fitting it?

[dgbot]

Not really, no. If you are having some difficulty you can make multiple score lines on the bottom using a straight edge and a knife.  One down the center and then 3 to 4 crosswise.  This will make it easier to flex the deck.

David B

[cmann]

Thanks.

[cmann]

The first part that needed to be built:
The wood was surprisingly hard, I might try and smooth it out a bit more before I start lining the hull.
 

 
Here the deck has been nailed on and the frames have been glued.
I found that when I started nailing the deck onto the spine the tension on the deck kept pulling out the screws so I used one or two drops of superglue once I had a few nails in and was sure that the deck was aligned properly.
 
One problem I had was that as I hammered in the nails they would start to go in different directions when they entered the second piece of wood and pull it out of alignment, has anyone else had this problem?








 
The back of the deck here is curved, should I file down the frame below it to match the shape of the deck, or when I line the deck should I rather line it up straight with the back edge?
 
The next step is to line the deck, and then after that line the first layer of the hull.
I am thinking that it would be better to do the hull's first layer before lining the deck to prevent any accidental damage, is there any reason why I shouldn't do it in this order?

Edited November 13, 2014 by cmann

[shoule]

 I think that you've gotten many good answers, here; it's a very nice place with very nice people.

 Perhaps I can add to them, a little.

 The books: they can be found for very little expense in the "used" section of most online book sellers. I've found some for as little as fifty cents, plus shipping. I've found most used books to be practically new, anyway.

 Just buy things as you need them because your understanding, skill, creativity, and intuition will change rapidly. This is especially true with tools; you'd be surprised at how much you can come up with on your own. For instance, I use a thrift shop travel sized steam iron as a plank bender. I prefer it to the more expensive, purchased, one that I thought I had to have.

 Diluting carpenters glue is something that I'm surprised took me so many years to appreciate. It never occurred to me, until modeling. It allows the glue to penetrate most wood fibers much better, reduces gap and shrinkage, and cleans up much better; all without noticeable loss of strength. As a means to my own livelihood, I never use straight glue any more. You will have to experiment with the proportions, a little, as each glue, and each application, is a little different. It's just my opinion, but I've found it to be a valuable trick of the trade.

 Until something better comes along, or someone here opens my eyes, I use contact cement for the second planking (it's used on veneers, anyway). I don't let it dry, full term, before I attach the part, and it allows a little room for error and adjustment before it bites. It also allows you you to keep working without waiting for drying time.

 Your model also is very open to improvisation; so don't be afraid to make some your own parts if you feel like straying from the path. I think I used very little but the final hull planking and the mast dowels, on mine.

 And lastly, as everyone says: Take your time. Like a tattoo, you don't want to rush something that you invest so much of yourself in.

 Good luck and I look forward to following your progress.

 

 Cheers,

 Steve

[cmann]

 I think that you've gotten many good answers, here; it's a very nice place with very nice people.

 Perhaps I can add to them, a little.

 The books: they can be found for very little expense in the "used" section of most online book sellers. I've found some for as little as fifty cents, plus shipping. I've found most used books to be practically new, anyway.

 Just buy things as you need them because your understanding, skill, creativity, and intuition will change rapidly. This is especially true with tools; you'd be surprised at how much you can come up with on your own. For instance, I use a thrift shop travel sized steam iron as a plank bender. I prefer it to the more expensive, purchased, one that I thought I had to have.

 Diluting carpenters glue is something that I'm surprised took me so many years to appreciate. It never occurred to me, until modeling. It allows the glue to penetrate most wood fibers much better, reduces gap and shrinkage, and cleans up much better; all without noticeable loss of strength. As a means to my own livelihood, I never use straight glue any more. You will have to experiment with the proportions, a little, as each glue, and each application, is a little different. It's just my opinion, but I've found it to be a valuable trick of the trade.

 Until something better comes along, or someone here opens my eyes, I use contact cement for the second planking (it's used on veneers, anyway). I don't let it dry, full term, before I attach the part, and it allows a little room for error and adjustment before it bites. It also allows you you to keep working without waiting for drying time.

 Your model also is very open to improvisation; so don't be afraid to make some your own parts if you feel like straying from the path. I think I used very little but the final hull planking and the mast dowels, on mine.

 And lastly, as everyone says: Take your time. Like a tattoo, you don't want to rush something that you invest so much of yourself in.

 Good luck and I look forward to following your progress.

 

 Cheers,

 Steve

 

Thanks for the input, I'll keep it in mind.

 Also, when you say contact cement, is it the same as contact glue or is this something different?

[Littlebob]

To answer your question ,you need to file or sand the transom to conform to the false deck or you will have a hard time getting the bulwarks to form a gentle curve, you can check this by dry fitting your bulwarks.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Robert Vaglio

[cmann]

To answer your question ,you need to file or sand the transom to conform to the false deck or you will have a hard time getting the bulwarks to form a gentle curve, you can check this by dry fitting your bulwarks.

So I need to file both the sides and the back to match?

I see now in your build log in the second post that you have filed down the transom to match the curve of the deck; but if it is curved here how do I fit the upper stern, which is straight, onto it?

I have tried dry fitting it and I have looked through your build log but I can't make out how they fit together.

[Littlebob]

The correct way I think would be to first dry fit your bulwarks, than you can get an idea of how much you need to bend the transom to conform to both them and the false deck.

 

The pics of my build really don't show to much of a curve to my transom, the fit between my transom and bulwarks was pretty good, I never got a perfect fit between the transom and the false deck, if you check my build again I added a small filler piece to cover the very small gap between the transom and the false deck ( I cheated a little ).

[DocBlake]

One place I think CA glue works great is planking the hull, especially the second planking.  I uses green label ZAP-A-GAP.  It allows you to work quickly, because it dries quickly.  But not so quickly that you can't adjust the planking a little if you need to.  Some people worry about durability and holding power of CA 's in this application.  If you glue to the first layer of planking, as well as to the adjacent plank's edge, there is no way that plank is coming off.  I know, because I tried it!  I pulled off some of the first layer of planking with the second when I tried to remove it.

 

Dave

[shoule]

 cmann, to answer your question regarding "contact cement", in a hardware store it would be labled just that.

 It is a petrolium based glue similar to the rubber cement that you probably used as a kid in school. Though it has many uses, it is the primary means of applying most laminates, including wood vaneers and formica. It cleans up easily with laquer thinner, 3M adhesive remover or mineral spirits.

 If you choose to experiment with it, I suggest that you buy the smallest bottle, because repeated exposure to air will thicken it and make it apply less even. Though it has a brush installed on the underside of the cap, I use a small, cheap, artest brush  and rest that in a shot glass with a little laquer thinner, inbetween applications, to keep it from gumming up and to help thin the next stroke.

 There may be better ways to accomplish this, and I'm open to new ideas, but I'm happy with this solution.

[dgbot]

I have used contact cement at work for along time.  It can be messy if you are not careful.  On large pieces we would thing it out so we could get even coverage.  Once the surfaces were dry we would thin put the two pieces together and clamp it down to insure the cement was in contact.  That is one of the things people forget.  Either running a roller or burnishing to achieve full adhesion.  Plus the stuff gets thick very fast.

David B

[cmann]

I have now filed down the sides and attached and smoothed the knightheads:

 

Next I am going to do the hull's first layer, does anyone have any tips or advice on the method?

Edited November 13, 2014 by cmann

[dgbot]

You have a lot of space inbetween your bulkheads.  This will make it difficult to keep you planking even.  My advice would be to fill those spaces in.  Any wood will do.  Bass, aspen, pine, balsa, or scrap from the kit.  measure between the bulkheads at the false keel and when you fill in use a square to insure alignment.  Plus your model will not warp.  You will also find it easier to glue the planks because there will be more surface area.

David B

[cmann]

So I should add extra hand made bulkheads in between the existing ones? I would be reluctant to do that, getting the correct shape seems like it would be very tricky.

Edited July 31, 2014 by cmann

[dgbot]

Not at all.  Just fill in between the spaces and shape, it is relatively easy to do.  Any wood will do no need to be fancy.

David B

[cmann]

I'm not sure, I will think about it. If I do though, I have a sheet of 5mm balsa but it seems far too soft for this.

 

I also have some general questions:

1. If I use a crimping tool to bend the planks do I still have to soak them?
2. If I do not use a crimping tool, how long do I have to soak them for?
3. How hot should the water be?
4. Is it better or easier to steam them with a kettle instead of soaking them?
5. The manual seems to suggest starting at the top and bottom and meeting in the middle, what is the reason for this? wouldn't it be simpler and neater to just go from one end to the other?

[dgbot]

Balsa is perfect.  Just cut it out and fill then cut and shape.  It will also help to insure your hull is symetrical.  As for the planking I have rarely used a crimping tool.  The hull shape has mild curves.  You just have to be careful on laying them out.  Once your hull is ready for planking my advice would be to make up a plan on how you want your planks to sit.  Since this is a double planked hull it will give you some practice.  Go through the forum and look up planking and check them out.  There are also a couple of good books out there that can detail it for a lot better than I can. It is good to think ahead but for the time being just try and make sure your hull is ready.  I would normally start on the shear plank first.  This would give me a start on how it will play out. 

David B