Carmen 1850 by GuntherMT - FINISHED - Constructo - Scale 1: 80 - pailebote (Schooner) - first wooden ship build

[GuntherMT]

Thank you Sal & Richard, and all the others for the likes.

 

By the way, have you read all those books?

 

All of them and many more besides, and some of them more than once!

[GuntherMT]

I have to say, that I am beginning to think the "industry" is it's own worst enemy when it comes to these kits.  While in theory, an 'average' model maker could buy a kit off the shelf at the local store, and assemble it into some sort of a finished model, it is quite easy to understand why the vast majority of kits are probably never finished, and either get tossed, or placed into the back of a closet or garage, and collect dust.

 

If the manufacturers included decent instructions (and they needn't be extensive, but should have basic things like what knots to use in different places on the rigging), and slightly different parts (correct line sizes for the rigging - not sure how including 3 or 4 sizes of line instead of 2 would change the cost by more than a buck or two), the kits would come together much better, and with much less frustration.

 

If it wasn't for the amazing resources found online at this site, and others that I've found linked from various builds and resource links on this site, my ship would be looking vastly different I'm sure.

 

This morning I'm working on my first shrouds, and after finishing the first assembly, I thought it ended up looking like crap, so started browsing builds again, and ran across a link to Chuck's instructions for the Syren.  In the chapter for the standing rigging, it clearly shows (and explains!) that the lanyards connecting the deadeyes are a much smaller line than the rigging line, but the kit only has the single size of line included, so even though I was using Chuck's line, it was simply too large.  Luckily, I had purchased one package of a smaller line (.012) when I got the line to match the kits, and when I used it, even though it's larger than the lanyard line used in the Syren instructions, it instantly looked 5x better.  Also, his instructions give the correct type of tie-off for the lanyard (Lark's Head) which was also huge.

 

Other small details, like using small pieces of wire to hold the deadeyes in place for spacing and making them consistent.

 

First try - using .025 lanyard (Chuck's line, but same size as provided by kit to use for this).

 

Re-do - using .012 lanyard from Syren, and the first shroud pair complete.

 

If the kits were to include stuff like this, it would probably keep many more people in the hobby, rather than throwing their kits out in frustration.  The goofy thing is, they would only need to 'produce' this sort of instructions once, because they are applicable to every kit that has shrouds and deadeyes, so the cost wouldn't really be an issue at all.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2014 by GuntherMT

[russ]

The thinner lanyards look much better. One thing though. You have too much line wrapped around the shrouds. Other than that, it looks very good.

 

Russ

[GuntherMT]

The thinner lanyards look much better. One thing though. You have too much line wrapped around the shrouds. Other than that, it looks very good.

 

Russ

 

Looking at the Syren instructions, it actually shows three very small seizings instead of the one large one that I did, and also it appears that those seizings are done with thread instead of the small line.

 

Would you say that this is correct, the seizings on the shrouds should be multiple small seizings done with thread?

[russ]

Yes, for the shrouds three small seizings with much smaller thread. However, the lanyards wrapped around the shrouds caught my eye.

 

Russ

[GuntherMT]

Yes, for the shrouds three small seizings with much smaller thread. However, the lanyards wrapped around the shrouds caught my eye.

 

Russ

 

I only did two Lark's Heads on each shroud, while the Syren instructions say to do 5 or 6 hitches.  I think most of what you see is the seizings, as I used the same .012 line to seize the shrouds to the deadeyes as I used for the lanyards.  I'll switch to thread for the seizings on the mainmast, even though it will make them different than the foremast shrouds, I'd like to see the result 'in action' as it were.

 

Do you have a good example of what I should be shooting for?  I'm sure there are dozens on here, it's just finding them amidst all the other awesome stuff can be time consuming and somewhat hit and miss.

Edited September 9, 2014 by GuntherMT

[russ]

If you follow the Syren instructions, I think you will be fine.

 

You can check out my cross section model and look at the way I did the seizings. They are not the neatest, but they are correct for scale and number.

 

Russ

Edited September 9, 2014 by russ

[GuntherMT]

I wasn't feeling well this morning so I took the day off work, and played miniature ship builder on and off all day.  I have to say that it's a lot more exciting than I ever thought it could be to see her turning into an actual ship now that I'm at a point where her lines come together into the whole.

 

I stole something I saw in one of the books, build logs, or links that I've read over the last weeks, and tried a couple of little jig things to hold the shrouds in place on the mainmast.  Wish I'd remembered/though of this on the foremast, as those shrouds are sort of uneven.  I may go back and redo the foremast, but in all likelyhood I'll just keep on trucking and apply the lessons learned to the AVS.

 

 

First shrouds on the mainmast, applying the jigs and the stuff discussed here earlier with Russ.  Thanks Russ, I think these look better.  I still need to reduce the size of the seizing even more, and add a third 'middle' one, but this is progress!

 

 

And with all of them completed.

 

 

Added a backdrop since the rigging is pretty hard to see in pictures with the dark wood and books as a backdrop.

 

Currently looks like so...

 

 

Next I start putting in the ratlines, and then will work on the rest of the standing rigging.  Getting close to needing to decide on whether or not to deal with the sails.  Also, I haven't even started building the yards, so that's back to woodworking for a while to do those.

 

Thanks everyone that is visiting, liking or commenting.  Feel free to criticize, everything I learn on this one is something I can do better next time!

[russ]

The seizings on the main shrouds are a great improvement. Good work.

 

Russ

[GuntherMT]

So I have decided that I am not a big fan of ratlines. 

 

The kit has only one size of black line, so I only got one size of black from Syren.  I began the ratlines using this line, but after 4 I decided that they were ugly as all get-out, just way out of scale.  So I raided the AVS kit for the smallest non-thread line in that kit, as I've decided I'm going to rig the AVS in dark brown standing rigging instead of black. 

 

This line looks better, but the knots were simply impossible.  The line from the AVS kit is some sort of non-cotton that refuses to keep a knot tight.  Neither overhand knots or clove hitches would stay tight, even long enough to get my little tiny single strand rat line done, and as the knots kept opening up, it was impossible to keep the lines even and not be pulling the shrouds in or pushing them out.  Soaking the line in water, or even 50/50 white glue and water didn't make any difference.  The only way I found that would work was to tie a knot, hit it with super glue, and then hold the knot while it dried enough to hold it tight, but that made doing any adjustments impossible. 

 

After just four of these, I just gave up completely, started cutting off short bits of the line, and just supergluing them directly to the shrouds.  It's not "right", but it looks better than the mess I was making trying to tie this terribly uncooperative line onto the shrouds.  If I hadn't already decided to replace the AVS kit line with Syren line, this experience would have made that decision for me I do believe.  Once the glue has completely dried, I use nail-clippers to trim the ends off.

I wasted the entire day fighting with the rat lines, and at the end of it, I've only got two of the four completed, and nothing else accomplished.

 

I did get some syringes in the mail today, so glue application should get better now.

[russ]

Brian:

That line of which you speak is just not very good stuff. I have seen it and it is worth it to replace it if you can.

 

I have used both cotton and linen and found that they are both good to work with. Clove hitches are no problem with cotton or linen. I prefer Egyptian cotton.

 

Ratlines should be about 1/2" diameter. At your scale, that would be .006". That is very small so you would probably have to get something relatively close.

 

Russ

[GuntherMT]

Thanks Russ,

 

I probably should have ordered some line in .005 or .008 to do this, but as you may have noticed, I'm kind of impatient. 

 

I played with using thread, which is fairly close to the right size, but it just didn't look right to me, although the knots worked just fine.

 

After I finish the other side I'll get some pictures and everyone will get to see how the 'cheating' ratlines look.

[GuntherMT]

Several times while fighting with the ratlines and the other rigging yesterday, I nearly knocked the ship off of the wobbly stand that came with the kit.  So, not feeling like tackling the other side of the ratlines at the moment, and needing a more stable platform, I decided I would try my hand at cobbling together a better stand to work off of.

The local hobby shop had a basswood plank that was originally 1/4" x 4" x 24", but someone had broken it off at the 17.5" mark somehow, so the shop had it marked down and I grabbed it for a buck, having no idea what I'd do with it.  I grabbed that plank, and a 5/8" oak dowel that I found at Lowes, and went to work with a scroll saw and my Dremel tool.  Much sanding, fitting, and drilling later..

 

 

It works great, and with some finishing, will probably be what I actually display the Carmen on when it is finished, rather than the flimsy kit stand that supports only via the keel.  I glued on some black velvet that I had used years ago to cover some ugly wood & bricks that were used for a large aquarium stand.  I'll trim that tomorrow after the glue has had a chance to dry well.

 

 

And here is what the ratlines look like currently after the super-glue instead of knots system.  I brushed on some acrylic clear flat to cover up the shiny glue.

 

 

Tomorrow after work I'll get back to the ratlines, and depending on time maybe work on the standing rigging some more.

Edited September 11, 2014 by GuntherMT

[russ]

The cradle and the ratlines look very good. Nice work.

 

Russ

[GuntherMT]

So I'm working on the standing rigging, and I'm running into a hard time finding pictures and references for the little details I'd like to have for this rig.  There are a bunch of things for square riggers, but not much I've been able to find for this particular schooner rig.

 

The line that runs from the very tip of the mast down across the tips of the cross-tree (spreader?) and then gets attached to the deck via another line which is belayed to a cleat.  On a square rigger it seems that this would be the topmast shroud, but on a square rigger they don't go all the way to the deck.  On the other schooner rigs I've been able to find detailed pictures of, the line doesn't run across the tips of the cross-tree, instead just taking a straight run to the deck.

The detail I can't seem to find, is how the line is retained at the ends of the cross-tree.  From what I can tell of the pictures of the rigs I've found, it appears to just run through a hole in the end of the cross-tree, but of course there is no reference to this at all in the plans or instructions.  I eventually just went ahead and drilled little holes at the tips of the cross-trees to run the line through, and I have the first one on.  Running it through the crosstree makes rigging the line a huge pain in the posterior, as only one end can have the block rigged off the ship, and the other end has to be rigged at just the right length to match it after attaching the top to the mast (another location where they fail to give any sort of direction on how to attach it - "attach a loop to the top of the mast"..  yea, thanks for that helpful instruction Constructo.

 

I'm wondering if the proper way wouldn't be to attach the two sides as completely separate lines, with served loops at the masthead.  Not going to do it that way on this one, but it doesn't seem like they would have actually made the top-mast shroud a single line running to the top of the mast and back down the other side, but it might be.

[russ]

On similar lines down here in South Mississippi, they seized a loop at the top, then ran it down through a hole in the spreader (or sometimes just a "v" cut in the end of the spreader) and then down to a standard deadeye and lanyard arrangement. However your seems to be a shifting backstay, thus the tackle near the deck and the belay to the cleat. Ours were two separate lines port and starboard so far as I can tell. 

 

Russ

[GuntherMT]

Pictures to go along with the previous post.

 

I did my first rope stropped block.  Fairly happy with it.

 

 

The offending line.  Is it the topmast shroud?

 

 

And here is all I have to go off of in the instructions:

 

 

Here is what I did, for better or worse.

 

 

And the deck attachments.

 

 

Now I get to do another one just like this for the main mast.

 

Russ - see that you replied while I was typing this.  Thanks!

 

So is this a 'shifting backstay', or is that just the name for the deck attachment method?  It does make sense to me that it would be two separate ropes, just for ease of replacement if nothing else.

[russ]

The fact that there is an adjustable tackle at the deck is why it is called a shifting backstay. There are many different variations on this theme over the years, but this is essentially what you have.

 

Russ

[GuntherMT]

Main mast backstay is done, which completes the standing rigging.

 

I can build the booms and gaffs now, but after that I will be at the point where I need to decide what I'm going to do with the sails.  Just the thought of hand-stitching them has me ready to quit (I do not have a sewing machine before you ask).  I know I've read a few things about people using pencils or other ways of 'faking' the stitching, just need to go find some of those now and read up on them again now that I'm nearing that point.

 

Here she is with all the standing rigging.

 

 

And bow on, got the masts pretty close.

 

[russ]

Sails might be a bit problematic right now since the masts are already in and the standing rigging is set up. The sails would be attached to hoops that fit around the masts. Those hoops really need to be on the mast before it is stepped.

 

The better order of masting and rigging would to make hoops and stitch them to the completed sails, then lace the sails to the gaffs and booms, then fit the hoops over the masthead, then attach the crosstrees etc and step the masts and then the standing rigging. The gaffs and booms would be pre rigged with halyard and sheet blocks so that they could rigged once the standing rigging is set up.

 

That said, you could try and use brass split rings for the hoops and open the rings slightly to get them around the masts and then squeeze them closed so they do not look like they are split rings.

 

Russ

[GuntherMT]

Apparently Constructo decided to ignore that bit of information.  The kit design has the sails attached to the gaff and boom (actually sewn directly to them with loops of rope), but not to the mast directly, just to the bolt-rope.

 

Here is the 'finished kit' picture from the Constructo website (same picture as is on the box):

 

 

As you can see, even though it's a fairly small photo, there are clearly no hoops around the masts.  Oh well, yet another lesson learned!

 

If I don't do sails, then I would need to figure out how to do at least some of the running rigging without them, and there is no plan at all for that, although some of it is fairly easy to figure out.

[russ]

You could lace them to the mast, but my bet is that they actually used hoops. If you can lace it to the masts that would be good. Still a bit fiddly with the masts and shrouds in place. Be careful.

 

Russ

[themadchemist]

some illustrations of lacing if you decide on that, I agree that on a vessel the size of Carmen hoops would be preferred though.
 
Here are a few differing illustrations, first with 2 methods


and expanded view



and a 3rd double wrap

 

Hoop attachment, for future reference.


These should give you some ideas, I hope. One of the reasons I've slowed WAY down on the DSotM build is that I'm learning how it all works before progressing.

Order of installation on rigging can quickly paint yourself in the corner. Your finding that out the hard way, but there is nothing like trial by fire to learn.
A lot depend on if you want a kit made like is pictured on the box or one outfitted as they really were.

 

The kits simulate LOTS of things and leave out even more. This is where it becomes the builders decision how detailed to go. I'm a detail junky, where your approach on this kit was to finish it based on kit materials. 2 completely differing Philosophies. You are probably seeing why so many scratch build rather then try to figure out what the kit skimped on.

[GuntherMT]

Thanks Keith, those pictures are very illuminating.

 

I'm considering just going without sails, just need to figure out what the running rigging should look like for static display without sails.  I've never been looking forward to the sails, just because the stitching is something that I don't think I can do in any way that would look decent at all (the long running stitches every 1/2" or so for the entire sail surface area), and because of the 'looks' thing as well. 

[themadchemist]

your welcome Brian.
 
I would suggest creating a folder system on your HD of your computer. I have a folder for each kit or build I an working on, even those I intend to build. I keep my build log pic's in it and then have a reference folder also in which I put reference pic's and information I find on the internet or on MSW. It makes finding them later handy. For ease of finding them later I have inner folders in the reference folder labeled (ie. bow, masts, spars and booms, rudder....). Just an idea. I also backup my archive regularly.
 
As far as with or without sails, admiralty models typically have only partial masts and bowsprit and little or no rigging. There are many who display without sails as they block the view of the detailed rigging.
There is also the question of, to furl or not to furl if one wants sails. I personally like sails, but furled or not is dependent on the vessel and the particular build.
 
If they are unfurled and just left hanging, I feel they are better left off. They should look full of wind. This is usually achieved with dilute PVA and a curved surface, but IIRC Popjack used a hair dryer for drying the glue and setting the wind blown look into his set. As with nearly everything in this hobby, there is more then one way to approach an issue/problem.
 
Furled sails look good also, but I've read its a tough technique to get them to look real, they are usually done wet to help, or so I've read.
 
Just to give you an idea of furled versus unfurled, here are 2 builts of the pilot boat Katy.

Furled:


and unfurled


I prefer the furled sails between these 2, but that my opinion.

It all really comes down to one thing, your the captain and only you know what you want. Remember hobbies are for FUN and when you do something based on what you feel other want, rather then what pleases you, the fun lessens or stops.
You tend to build very fast for my tastes, but I'm an analytical chemist and have a different build philosophy then you, also a differing temperament. Its crazy for anyone to say exactly how you approach a build as we all have different things we want to achieve, be it in detail or pace of build.

...sailing on the steel breeze....

Edited September 12, 2014 by themadchemist

[GuntherMT]

Thanks again Keith.

 

I'm still undecided on how to proceed, but I took the evening off and went out with some friends, so still have the gaffs & booms to make, so I've still got a little bit of time to think about it.  I could always stitch the sails on, and if they look like crap, cut them off!

 

I did indeed approach this build in a fairly fast/reckless manor, but in turn, I did learn a lot of lessons that I hope to apply to the AVS build, which I will try to take a lot more time and care with at each step, in order to improve the quality of the build, now that I have gotten my initial 'excitement' at that new hobby out of the way on the Carmen (which is still turning out fairly decent looking, in spite of myself).

 

The tips and advice of you and Russ in this thread have been invaluable, and I appreciate all the feedback from both of you, and everyone else who has dropped in to offer tips and/or encouragement.

[themadchemist]

Once again, your more then welcome.

I started building 2 years ago this November, so I'm still rather green at all this myself. I'm also amazed at just how much REAL knowledge I have acquired in such a short time.
 
What I know is that NOTHING I know is original to me, as pretty much everything I have developed is due to some member of the MSW community and their willingness to post excellent build information, including detailed photographs of procedures. I have still yet to PM a member of this community about a question I have and not just get an answer, but get a wealth of knowledge far beyond what I ever expected.
 
an enquiry to Janos about his carving equipment, ended in him helping me pick equipment and the best place to buy burrs. Not to mention a great friend.
 
If you haven't already seen his work, YOU MUST
http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/501-carved-figure-heads-and-decorations/
 
I could list a many others that I've had similar interactions with in the past 2 years.

 

I share because I understand that what I have, I own to those that gave to me. You happen to have Teacher and student when you speak of Russ and I, because he taught me.
Its the reason MSW exists, to help preserve the ART of something that is quickly being lost by our throw away society. Preservation of the understanding is important. We owe a lot to shipping, and yet most take it so for granted.
 
I, like you, started this hobby with a throw it together attitude. It was to blow off the stream of becoming disabled and help me retain my tactile ability. Something changes when a stranger lends a hand and then a light bulb goes off when the enormity of it really strikes home. Russ did that for me.

 

Kits are poor examples, that are marketed and require a profit margin. They expect you to find source material and have a working knowledge. Some have made that better with practicums. If one stays in this hobby long enough I think they either become scratch builders or HEAVY bashers, but the kits have there place.

My first thrown together is a Petersboro canoe with a misshapen hull. For the DSotM I slowed down and I'm bashing and learning. Kits are important and have there place, but they are lacking and $$$ will always have an effect on that.
 
Learning takes time, experience and proper guidance. MSW has the community to provide the help you need and as the Carmen becomes the AVS we will be here and more new people will join in. I Love when people link their build logs in their sig, as that is how I came across your build. Providence? Maybe.
 
Just do what feels right for you on the sails and you'll succeed.... and as for Pretty decent? I'd say for the length of time you've spent, this is a Beauty of an example of a Carmen build using the restraints you've imposed. Using just kit parts make it a lot tougher.  I would be PROUD of what you've achieve in knowledge as well as the GREAT LOOKING pilot schooner your building.

Edited September 13, 2014 by themadchemist

[GuntherMT]

Thanks for the kind words, as well as some great words of wisdom Keith.

 

Thanks for all the likes Joe!

 

Spent most of the day working on cleaning out the future hobby room, and went to dinner with family, but in between and after those things, I finished the main boom.  Very happy with how it came out, although I came very close to taking down too much material on one of the side pieces and wrecking the entire thing.  I also managed to put that simple little single block on wrong 3 times, but it's finally on right.

 

Those holes where it wraps the mast are just tiny, as the material there just isn't thick enough to drill reasonable size holes, so there is no way I'll be able to use the .028 rope like the kit says to hang the mast (it's just knotted on both sides with square knots and tied around the mast in the instructions).  I'll have to use thread, or possibly the .012 rope (the holes are .018).  Having seen some other builds with this sort of boom assembly, I think I may try to find some beads and make a 'proper looking' attachment with the smaller rope and some beads.

 

I did also manage to get the hole at the tip of the boom at an odd angle, but I don't think that will show.

 

[gluedandscrewed]

the hull is looking nice Brian,,,and thats the cleanest looking boat yard i have ever seen,, i flood my dry dock about once a month and wash out the trash

[gluedandscrewed]

stupid me only saw your first page,,boat is looking great