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Red Paint or Red Ochre


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35 replies to this topic

#21
Jaxboat

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I believe iron oxide reds were the right choice. If nothing else, they are extremely color stable. Organic reds on the other hand are much less stable. There is no such thing as an acrylic red. There are acrylic paints containing red pigments. Interesting discussion.


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#22
Brian the extraordinaire

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I love the red colour Chuck painted the inner bulwarks of his cutter.  Perhaps he can chime in with what paint he used .


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#23
Chuck Seiler

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He uses Crimson Red.  The second from the left on my plate #2.


Edited by Chuck Seiler, 20 October 2016 - 05:24 AM.

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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


On Hold:
Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
Completed:
Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)


#24
Chuck Seiler

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There is no such thing as an acrylic red. There are acrylic paints containing red pigments. Interesting discussion.

True.  I used the term acrylic red to differentiate between oil, acrylic or water color.  There are a significant number of hues within the 'red' range based on what they were made with.  These are further expanded with mixing and shading.


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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


On Hold:
Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
Completed:
Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)


#25
wefalck

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It is important to keep in mind, which kind of pigments were available at a given time and which ones were cheap enough to be used on a ship. The palette of an artist has always been richer than what was used for such mundane tasks as painting ships.

 

Cadmium-based pigments are a 20th century invention. According to Wikipedia, the potential for the red and yellow Cd-oxides as pigments was recognised in the 1840s, but commercial quantities did not become available until around 100 years later. Today, Cd-based pigments are being phased out again due to the environmental concern over such dispersive uses (for the same reason Cd-based batteries are being phased out as well). However, Cadmium-Red and Cadmium-Yellow paints for artists do not necessarily contain Cd, but are close matches with other pigments.

 

In fact, I think the discussion on the exact hue/colour and trials are rather futile. While iron-oxide reds are rather stable pigments as such, the exact colour of the paint made with them depends on a number of factors, such as how many waters are in the crystal structure of the oxides, where they were sourced, what other components were used in the paint, etc. The best solutions would be to find an ancient recipe for making the respective paints. But even then, there could be significant variations. Also, until the middle of the 19th century, navies gave their commanders considerable leeway in the details of these matters and there was no centralised supply. Colours did not become standardised until after WW1, when for instance the German army began together with industry to develop a colour table that still is in use today, even outside Germany (the 'RAL' numbers).

 

So I would not get too worked up about this as long as you have a somewaht mute and slightly yellow-brownish red.


Edited by wefalck, 20 October 2016 - 01:35 PM.

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wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

M-et-M-72.jpg  Banner-AKHS-72.jpg  Banner-AAMM-72.jpg  ImagoOrbis-72.jpg

#26
druxey

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I suspect that, back in the 17th and 18th centuries, that colors varied a lot. Paint was mixed on site from pigment and oils. The quality of pigment would vary from batch to batch and where one was located geographically. No 'QC' back then! I agree with Wefalk - don't get too stressed about it.  


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#27
Jaxboat

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OK: Elements of a paint used in modeling:

"Oil Based: Enamels Pigment, binder (drying (oxidizing) oils such as linseed oil, alkyds made from soybean oil, tall oil from paper manufacture etc "cooked" (reacted), diluents to reduce viscosity  (terps, etc.), drying agents (organo (manganese, zinc etc) metallic complexes to speed oxidation i.e. drying). Enamels

Solvent borne: lacquers (low molecular wt, acrylic resins, styrene copolymers, nitrocellulose etc) resins solved in carrier solvent such as ketones aromatics (xylene etc). Paint dries as solvent evaporates, pigments. Can be re-dissolved in original or alternate solvent blends

Water borne: Binders including acrylic emulsion, acrylic dispersion, styrene acrylic emulsion, urethane pre-polymers and resin dispersions, etc , pigments dispersants  to disperse, suspend and disaggregate pigments. Can be binder resins or separate. Coalescent agents (Co-solvents) to aid film formation, defoamers, viscosity and rheology modifiers and many others.Pigments, (metallic pigments are unique to WB)

Water borne paints are much more complex than solvent or drying oil based because of the poor surface tension (wetting) properties of water The terms lacquer and enamel are really not germane. I guess you could term a floor polish a lacquer. Inability to re-dissolve an acrylic house paint emulsion is a function of high molecular weight of the acrylic emulsion not composition.


Edited by Jaxboat, 20 October 2016 - 04:11 PM.

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#28
wefalck

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Not sure, what point you are trying to make ? Aren't we talking about prototype paints from bygone areas ?


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wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

M-et-M-72.jpg  Banner-AKHS-72.jpg  Banner-AAMM-72.jpg  ImagoOrbis-72.jpg

#29
Roger Pellett

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On a visit to the Royal Navy Museum, Portsmouth a month ago I went past HMS Victory on my way to the new Mary Rose museum. The inside of the gun port lids are now painted a rather startling orange color. Looks like the keepers of the ship would come down on the red ochre side of the debate.

Roger Pellett
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#30
Mark P

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Hi everyone;

 

Carrying on from Druxey's comments in his last post here,  I have studied Deptford Dockyards letter books for the middle of the 18th century,  and there is correspondence about paint,  and records of deliveries of oil and pigments.  The ingredients were certainly mixed on site,  prior to use. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P


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#31
Chuck Seiler

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Understood.  What I am trying to determine is, which (if any) of the colors/hues I posted would be reasonably good for use on a model of a late 18th century Continental warship?   ....or should I continue to experiment?


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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


On Hold:
Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
Completed:
Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)


#32
davyboy

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I decided to "bite the bullet" so to speak,I purchased a tube of Windsor & Newton red ochre from their Galeria acrylic range. It is slightly redder (in my sight) than the bottom row 4th from left in post 13. I have duly painted the bulwarks of my Cheerful build covering the red I had started to use,I'm the Captain and I like it  :)

As has been said already paint was mixed on site so there would have been many variations in shade. Just one slight problem,I now have to repaint the outside of the recessed gunport liners (about .040" wide) to match the interior without making a mess on the outer planking :D :D

 

This has been an interesting thread to say the least.

 

Dave :dancetl6:


Edited by davyboy, 21 October 2016 - 07:35 PM.

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#33
Chuck Seiler

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How does it compare to the hues in post 18?


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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


On Hold:
Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
Completed:
Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)


#34
Chuck Seiler

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. Just one slight problem,I now have to repaint the outside of the recessed gunport liners (about .040" wide) to match the interior without making a mess on the outer planking :D :D


Dave :dancetl6:

Carefully.  :D

 

One possible way would be to install some pre-painted 1/64" thick fillers.


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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


On Hold:
Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
Completed:
Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)


#35
davyboy

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Hi Chuck,

 

1st pic lower right cadmium red light + burnt sienna. The lower colour is very close to the W&N red ochre which I bought,mine looks to me just a tiny shade darker. TBH, I imagine if you bought a specific colour from several different manufacturers there could be a slight difference between them anyway due to the ingredients therein.

 

Probably best if people use the shade of red they like,we don't have time travel so who can say they're wrong :D

 

Dave :dancetl6:

 

P.S. managed to paint the gunport recessed liners ok  with a #1 brush.


Edited by davyboy, 22 October 2016 - 04:38 PM.

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#36
Chuck Seiler

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Dave,

    I agree, in the end, go with the colour you as the builder like.  (within reason....I would question the metal flake hot pink and iridescent green...but who am I?)

 

    Joel has echoed your thoughts on manufacturer vs difference in color. I think Chuck even mentioned that he used to use one brand, but they changed and the color is slightly different.

 

    Anywho, while I will continue to experiment, I have the answers I was looking for.  For me, give that a shipyard of yore could mix a batch of paint one day that looks like one panel and then another batch a week later that looks like another panel leads me to a conclusion:  Pick the hue I like best for the bulkheads.  Pick another for the gun carriages and deck furniture.  See if anybody can tel the diff...or if anybody cares.

 

   Thanks all. :cheers:


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Chuck Seiler
San Diego Ship Modelers Guild
Nautical Research Guild

 
Current Build:
Continental Sloop PROVIDENCE
Continental Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (1/2" Scale Model Shipways Kit)
Colonial Schooner SULTANA (scratch from Model Expo Plans)


On Hold:
Colonial Pinnace VIRGINIA (1607)(scratch)
18th Century Longboat (Model Expo Kit)
 
Completed:
Missouri Riverboat FAR WEST (1876) Scratch
1776 Gunboat PHILADELPHIA (Scratch 1/4 scale-Model Shipways plans)





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