Mark P

Good Morning Allan; The essential difference between 'white stuff' & 'black' was the cost. The ingredients of the black variant were cheaper, and its use was apparently widespread. However, the white was considered more efficacious, and was used for ships designated to serve in warmer, tropical seas, where the risk of worm attack was higher, and presumably fouling was worse due to longer time out of the dockyard before the ship could be graved again. However, as a black-coloured hull is not as attractive to look at as a white one, artists and modelmakers invariably use white to colour this part of the ships they depict. Artistic licence is the deciding factor in what we see, not a strict adherence to reality; understandably so, I would say. All the best, Mark P

And everybody here will appreciate your doing so, I assure you. Theft of another's work undermines the whole ethos behind developing a kit in the first place. All the best, Mark P

Good Morning Allan; This is an excellent book. It is based on the author's reconstruction of a galleon using the 'Salisbury Treatise', which is an early 17th century work on designing ships. This is a detailed treatise, and is in some places hard to understand (it does not help that some of the sentences here and there were lost in copying) I believe that there are one or two errors in Mr Kirsch's reconstruction (I cannot remember who told me this, it was some time back) but overall it is certainly a good buy. He uses a surviving votive model from Denmark, I believe it was, as a general guide to what he is trying to achieve. However, the treatise is written in English, presumably by an Englishman (the original has not survived, which was certainly larger than what we now have, with tables, now lost, included) and to the best of my memory, it can only be assumed to refer to English practice. All the best, Mark P

Good Evening Allan; This kind of detail is quite common on draughts of the later 18th century, certainly. I have always been of the opinion that such things represent the joining of beams by scarphs, seen from the end, and cannot conceive of it representing anything else. The location and spacing make it certain. The use of scarphs was not so much dependent upon the whim of the shipwright in charge, but rather was driven by the timber available. As good timber became harder and harder to obtain, it became necessary to use ever shorter pieces. I have read of deck beams being formed of two, three, or even four separate sections, all scarphed together. The scantlings of timbers used in early 17th century ships, which were much smaller than those of the later 18th century, are much larger in size than the corresponding timbers ever were in the later period. This presumably reflects the need to make the most of the timber available. Deck planks were both spiked (nailed) and treenayled at various times. Generally the butt end of a plank would be fixed with a bolt for extra security, or if a wider plank, with a bolt and a treenail, if my memory serves me correctly. All the best, Mark P

Congratulations Jerry, on a real working model which is a reflection of both the real vessel, and also your many hours of dedication and effort to bring her to life in miniature. Great model, well done indeed! All the best, Mark P

Good Morning Everyone; Some interesting thoughts are being added to this debate. However, although some are correct, and some somewhat less so, nobody has yet stated the truth regarding the reasons for adding wales to a ship. They were structural members, yes, and important ones; and they evolved over time from a number of single, relatively parallel strakes of timber into broader bands made up of several strakes together. However, the main intention and function of wales was to counteract 'hogging', also called 'reaching'. This was the perennial problem of timber construction, wherein as a wave passes under a ship from end to end, the stern and bow in succession are left unsupported, and tend to droop. Over time, this led to the butt joints of the planking opening up, and to the keel becoming curved downward at each end. Warships were especially prone to this, due to the weight of the ordnance carried at bow and stern. The wales were separate strakes of heavier timbers, inserted in the planking, running parallel to the external planks. Although not always specified, they were often bolted to the timbers, not treenailed, for additional strength (remember that iron bolts were expensive, and were not used lightly) In order to achieve the maximum benefit of this method of strengthening, the curvature of the wales was exaggerated relative to the sheer of the deck, so that the ends of the wales were higher relative to the line of the deck, than was the case amidships. The main wales were always sited so that they gave strength to the main deck, being in line with it at the midships, and above it at the bow and stern. As Druxey states above the decks were, in earlier times, stepped downwards at the end, in order to avoid the need to cut gunports through the wales, thereby weakening them. However, it was realised that this significantly weakened the resistance of the deck planking to hogging, and it was already recommended in England that steps should be avoided, by 1612. The internal planking, though, did follow the sheer of the decks. The essential principle of internal planking was that at every location where there was a line of overlap in the ship's timbers, between floor timbers and futtocks, for example, and different ranks of futtocks, this overlap was strengthened with a much thicker band of planking, in many locations, and with quite a variety of names: for example, what in later times was known as 'spirketting', that is the run of thick timbers between the waterways and the gunport cills, was originally known as the 'spirkett wale'. This is because the spaces between the ends of the timbers were known as 'spirketts'. Others were 'sleepers'; 'middle bands'; and 'footwaling'. In later times these became known under the more generic term of 'thick stuff over the futtock heads'. In order for the wales of the model which started all this to look realistic, it is necessary that they must follow the sheer of the planking. All the best, Mark P

Good Evening tmj; Assuming that you are speaking of Royal Navy ships, or similar, even for experienced folk it is not really basic, unfortunately. With some exception, the inner line of the timbers at each station is a gradual taper from the thickest dimension over the keel, to the thinnest at the capping rail of the ship's side. To draw the timbers successfully, it is necessary to know the thicknesses and the points at which they were measured. This knowledge can be gained only from study, of either contemporary or modern books, or the sources on which they are based. Allan Yedlinsky's book 'Scantlings of the Royal Navy', gives a good start in this field, but it will not be a quick learning process. You will need either a level of dedication bordering on the masochistic, or a very determined interest in mastering the particulars. However, once grasped, the principles will remain with you, and the only additions are the particular dimensions for each size or type of ship. It is a rewarding study. Did I say anything about the additionally necessary knowledge of the 'horizontal' timbers which tie all these stations together; which also have their own idiosyncrasies and behaviour: keel, keelson, clamps, wales, spirketting, to name the principal ones. 🙂 All the best, Mark P

Good Evening Michael; There has been considerable discussion on this forum previously regarding whether the Sovereign had a round or square tuck, so I won't go over it all again; suffice to say that it is there to be found if you are really interested. I can say that the late and much-missed Frank Fox, widely regarded as the foremost expert of his time in 17th century ships, was firmly of the opinion that she had a round tuck stern. I wish you a successful completion of your model, with only you being aware of the small regrets! (why did I not change that when I could!) All the best, Mark P

Good Evening Georgik; An interesting query. I will do my best to give you a relevant answer, but can I ask you to clarify the connection between what seems to be an 'Italian' (or at least Mediterranean) ship (Medici; Livorno) and an English ship's cabin? If you are referring to an old model somewhere, it would be good to know about it. To answer your query I can tell you that there are, as far as is known, no woodcuts, engravings or paintings of the interior of a cabin from this date (the earliest I know of are more than 70 years later) nor have I seen any such features in the background of contemporary portraits. They are still very rare even in much later portraits (I would be very happy to be proven wrong!) However, there is a simple rule which enables a reasonable start to making a reconstruction of an English cabin at least, which probably applies to other nations at this era. That is, that the interior of the cabins used by senior officers was constructed and furnished to resemble as closely as possible the rooms of the homes in which they lived on land; so look at architecture surviving from that period. Fundamentally, the side walls would be covered with wood panelling up to the dado level, with pilasters at intervals, surmounted by a moulded cornice. The panels above the dado were normally? frequently? sometimes? made not of timber but of fabric. Bulkheads would be all timber construction, probably. The level of finishing of the decoration would depend upon the likely status of the person using it. For someone royal this would involve carving, gilding, elaborate moulded ceilings, and painted ceiling and wall panels too (or maybe tapestries, although this is not mentioned anywhere) Those of lesser status would have cabins without the wall and ceiling paintings, but still with plenty of mouldings, carving and gilding. There are some mentions of the ceiling being painted to match the sky with 'clowdes'. The completed cabin was furnished with benches, settles and tables; and beds or bedsteads (probably of rope strung over a wooden frame) This should be enough to enable you to make a good start; and the real guidance is that within the outline of what I have written above, nobody could be more specific for any individual ship of the time, so create what you feel best will fit. All the best, Mark P

Good Evening All; To add a further note to the thread, I came across this while reading through Sir Henry Manwayring's seaman's dictionary, dated around 1624. He specifically states that lockers were placed by the ship's sides, at every gun, for shot to be stored in. However, in a fight, the shot would be taken out, and placed in, quote: 'in a rope made like a ring which sits flat upon the deck'. The reason for this was that if an enemy shot were to hit the full locker of balls, the contents would be spread around like shrapnel and do great injury. All the best, Mark P

Good Evening All; Re the reference to grummets in the above quote, the word 'grummets' is a version of grommet, which is a circle of rope formed by splicing the ends of a short length together. These could be made quickly, and easily moved to any place on deck where they might be needed. They would hold shot without trouble, and prevent them rolling around the deck. This could well be what was done on smaller vessels such as cutters. I have no knowledge of this being so, and I have not seen a reference to grommets in this context before, so I am grateful to Morgan for posting this comment in the first place. It would also have been easy to make these in a ladder or grid type arrangement, with spaces for several shot together. All the best, Mark P

Thank you Bruce; And many thanks indeed to all those who have spent time searching for answers to my queries. This has been a great help, and is much appreciated. All the best to all of you, Mark P

Well, thank you indeed, Druxey; How on Earth did both you and Craig find these tidbits? So it is a particular pattern of graining, which it seems can be done with a variety of colours. Interestingly, Leonard Fryer was Sergeant painter to Elizabeth I, and is listed in the accounts for 1599 as being paid £103, a very considerable sum then, for painting the Warspite following her repair in dry dock. Thank you again. All the best, Mark P

Thank you both, Bruce & Craig. Still a lot to learn! All the best, Mark

Good Evening to all who read this; I would be very glad to receive any help from users of this forum who have knowledge of old painting techniques. I have come across the following terms, and if anyone can explain how each was done I would be very grateful. 1: Revailing. Example 'laying with a light colour and revailing with brown'. 2: Rebiske. Example 'for working with a rebiske in diverse colours'. Diverse I take to indicate more than 2 colours. 3: Flother work. Example 'painting the ceiling with flothered work'. Don't have a clue what this might mean. Flother is apparently an old word for a snowflake, but this would seem a bit unlikely in this context. All the best, Mark

Good Morning Allan; I would if I could; my only authority for the changes is a memory that there were some made to rigging setups in the 1770s, based on many previous readings of Lees' book; confirmed just before my last post when I looked through his book again. In his proportional listings at the end of the book, quite a few items change at this date; and at the beginning of the book, he mentions a 1773 establishment, without clarifying it much. This may well have related only to rigging. All the best, Mark

Good Evening Allan; Not to worry too much, easily done! Lees does mention a 1773 establishment. This certainly made changes to masts, yards and rigging, although I am not sure if this relates to rigging only, or whether anything about scantlings of the ships' timbers was included. All the best, Mark

Sorry Allan; but I must disagree (I believe!) I am sure that there were some important changes to rigging in the 1770s; will have to check, though. All the best, Mark

Good Evening Chuck; A very impressively executed model. The sweep of the timbers inside the hull when the top template was removed is so smooth and regular that I can't believe it will need much sanding. I can see that you are a very creative and inventive thinker, devising workable and effective aids to assist each step of the construction; and I congratulate you on another very effective and realistic model to add to your already impressive repertoire. I look forward to seeing her completed, and wish you the success you so rightly deserve. All the best, Mark P

Good Evening Bill; I have some contemporary records listing dimensions for masts, yards and rigging of English warships going back as far as 1600, if this is what you need. If you can be more specific about what is your particular interest, I can PM you some details. There are surveys going back to Armada times, but unfortunately they only list the condition of the items, and don't give any sizes. All the best, Mark P

Good Evening all; Further to Bob's informative reply above, I have just noticed an item in the Navy Treasurer's accounts for the year 1626 as follows: Dressing 49 hundredweight, one quarter & 19lb of ground towes into fine Okam at 12s the hundredweight £29 10s 1d ha'penny. Also Converting of 8 thousand 4 hundred 2 quarters & 1lb of ground Towes into sounding lines, Deep sea lines, white lines, marline, and sail lines at 30s the hundredweight £126 15s 3d It helps greatly that I understood what tow is before I read this. Thanks Bob! All the best, Mark P

Good Morning Tomek; Congratulations on a lovely model; one that will be a joy to look at for many years. All the best, Mark P

Good Afternoon Frolick; Bruce is indeed correct; there were several attempts to set up a dockyard at Kinsale, but they always failed due to lack of support and funds, despite much pleading from various interested parties. It is also possible that English shipwrights worried about losing lucrative work to Irish yards, and used any influence they had to stop such developments. In 1672 a contract was signed between Sir Nicholas Armorer and Sir Edward Spragge, and the Navy Board, to construct four 50 gun ships at Waterford in Ireland. However, the contract was cancelled and no work carried out, when Spragge was killed at the Battle of the Texel some months later. All the best, Mark P

No boats at the jetty? Or are they all filled up with the other 15 and sailed away to give you a bit of peace? Looks like a nice place for a bit of sailing. Interestingly, the sea is exactly the same colour as that which I was looking at here in England off our East coast at the weekend. Have a good break! Mark P

Good Morning Gentlemen; I can add some facts to this debate: in the early 17th century, the limber holes were cut in the bottom of the floor timbers, adjacent to the keel. To prevent fouling of these holes, and the spaces between them, a rope was placed through them, known as the 'limber rope', or 'keel rope'. The holes were 3-4 inches square. This is explained in Sir Henry Mainwayring's 'Nautical Dictionary', written by an experienced mariner for the education of gentleman officers who knew nothing of the sea, and of which he produced quite a few handwritten copies around 1630; so this can be taken as a definite feature of ships of the time. How long it continued I cannot say with any certainty; nor exactly when it might have started. However, as Bob says above, the cost of chain, certainly in the earlier periods of sail, would have made its use very unlikely, and I have seen no mention of such in this context. All the best, Mark P