CharlieZardoz

Oooooooooo yes I have this!  Again it's a tiny image I'd really like to know if there is a place to view the full size images. That said it does offer some nice perspective even at this size for me to make a template drawing off from (or start anyways).  Those are roses, not stars? Also here are two modernish paintings of Chesapeake and Decatur. The Decatur reminds me of Jamestown and Congress a bit while Chesapeake looks like she does from the captured plans however I do wonder if she was ornamented as such since the bone model in Germany shows much more carvings?

Also starting to realize that the best way to understand a ships build and decorations will mean collecting info on builders and woodworkers, so I can get an understanding on each's style (Rush seems to be the primary carver for many ships). Any thoughts on books I should invest in, I have Figureheads and their carvers of course a great work.

Very interesting. Ive considered whenever I decide to build a Constitution model what it would be like to build her in her 1840 to civil war configuration (as I would United States). The billet scrollwork (under old hickery) was similar yet different to the current billet. I wonder if the stern ornaments were the same Hartfords changed quite a bit.

Also seahawk you mentioned the brandywine looked like cross swords. While I agree I wonder if those paintings can be viewed somewhere in larger detail...

Ive been wondering if Connies 1874 onward stern was the same as it was during the civil war era or if changes were made? At any rate this makes me want to take Guerriere and Potomac and line then up now. 

Poor Java and Guerriere. They have practically no depictions to my knowledge and generally had uneventful careers. Java being the worst spending much of her time needing a rebuild. I imagine both ships might have had a few carvings but no idea if any info exists.

That's pretty neat and also regarding the later "improved 74" I sorta imagine the stern drawing on that one to be similar to what United States looked at launching. Based on what drawings exist of the frigate it seemed to have a similar style balcony plus the design itself feels like a scaled up version of the super frigates or thus the frigates were "razed" versions of the 74 lol

And yeah that's the stern of Essex I am familiar with so I am assuming that was a merely a reconstruction? If so could she also have had additional carvings the drawing doesn't depict? This is 1812+ version of Essex that is...

Hi frolick! Hope all is well  I am curious regarding Essex, there is that stern from Anatomy of the ship book then the one from Chapelle's book aka the british admiralty plan, so I assume Essex had five windows as such? Below for a bit of fun I lined up Potomac and Congress you can see how much longer the stern was for Congress

Yay glad to be back! And yay on that website link, should keep me occupied tracking stuff down. That Constellation in the storm looks a lot like the Dale class 1838 sloops from Chapelle's book, any idea when it was painted? Yeah I agree Jamestown and Congress are likely similar. Seeing the model of Congress should probably answer most of my questions provided the builder tried their best to be historical, Ill take a trip to Norfolk in the spring, however I'm also hoping someone else has those pics and can save me a trip.  

Also anyone want to hazard a guess on what that x shape probably was on Brandywine? My plan is to start drawing an overlay on the stern lines similar to what Chapelle did for Raritan then start to fill it in with detailing.

Eventually I will visit the model of Congress in Norfolk. The only stern decoration I've even seen is from the 1991 film (looks like some eagle carving). I'd like to track down and visit a lot of model exhibits over the next few years as I'm hopeful the model makers did some of the research to help me make some inferences as to what the ship probably looked like.  

Here is Chesapeake. I'd like to draw these carvings over the admiralty plans however I believe the history was that the stern was hastily reconstructed with many of the carvings removed before her capture? If I wanted to put a template together for a model should I assume the ship still had "mullions" (assuming that's the right term) at the time of her capture? I'll keep working on these and add as I find more info out. Cheers!

Next up is Brandywine, I see a x shape in the center and two figures by the quarter galleries, some other eagle-ish looking carving above the x.

This was the portrait of USS Constellation mentioned to me a ways back 1825 when she hit a storm and you can see she has a stern similar to the Java/Constitution/Potomac stern style with 3 windows. Anyone know more about this portrait if I may be able to find a better quality pic of it? Would love to see a closeup to the detailing it looks similar to the 16 gun sloops of 1838 in Chapelle's book page 403. 

Hi guys! So yeah I'm back after a bit of a long hiatus which consisted mainly of getting my business on track plus I have a busy nightlife in performance art.  I've been tinkering a lot with laser templates (which an update will be posted shortly for the cutter) but also been doing a lot of research and immersion. Sometimes a break from ones hobbies helps offer perspective. So with that out of the way, nice to be back (and wow the site is real different now lol). For this page my plan is to start making some templates on how various ship sterns and bows might have looked. First off is Potomac which I got started but not sure about quite a few details. I took the initial steps on the windows and overlaying the detailing from the builder plans. So lets have fun and happy to hear your informative opinions. I'm not sure about the windows if they should have one or two horizontal bars. I'm also assuming that the stern had mullion pillars like Constitution? Also I'm seeing a shadowy vertical detail that looks similar to the stern plan of Columbus, open to thoughts as to what sort of plant or scrolling that might be? What I'm seeing is a lot of navy ships from 1820 onward had a repeat of basic imagery, stars, eagles, wreaths, etc. A lot of the problems i'm having is the contemporary source materials I currently have are images from books that are 2" or so large. If larger versions of the source material exists for viewing would like to check it out. I'd like to do similar to Congress, Brandywine, Constellation, Chesapeake and other similar ships trying to get as close as possible to what they may have looked like.

Exceptional!

So guys how much original wood exists in the current niagara? There even a splinter in there?

I'll throw my two cents in here since I wondered the same and while both ships were likely identical, there is no reason why one couldn't use a bit of an artistic license to modify color schemes and certain deck fittings to offer a bit of distinction. Here is a model of Lawrence someone did which looks like Niagara and while the white stripe doesn't look accurate to me there are some minor differences here. I think one could approach model ship building as a "theory" project you want to complete sometimes research offers two or more plausible conclusions regarding how a ships detailing could have been laid out and you can build two totally similar yet different ships and call them sister ships. Noone may know how they really looked but both may be working theories of how they "could" have looked and in the process you enhance your own knowledge on how such ships may have functioned  

I'm realizing I need to make a list of carvers and builders of these ships and then follow the line to see who worked on which ship and what their specific style were. Looking at New York next to Constellation/Congress I can see how the lines are very similar. Seems same is true with Boston and Essex I believe.

Frolick was McIntire the one who did New York's carvings? And thank you Sir Seahawk id like these posts to be sort of online resources for these ships if possible. I feel what info does survive is scattered about and forgotten in some instances. Regarding the New York seal im leaning to the idea that it was used as a theme for the stern, meaning parts of it scattered about and implied throughout rather than just plastered on the center of the stern whole. But I could be wrong about that?

Hi all! Been a bit I've been neck deep in my new business, I see this post has been evolving a bit. Interesting to think New York was salvageable by 1830. Regarding this "French style" was the Boston's stern also done this way? I say looking at Dan's version of the model on this site which also seems to have that central stack of flags type thing frolick described. What is the source of this info regarding New York's stern? Is it accessible somewhere?

Eric I think you did a really great job with that kit, made it the best it can be. The problems are with the kit itself it's lacking in detailing and yeah all that is fixable but if you look at the Corel, Mamoli and then Krick cutters they all increase in detailing but essentially are the same idea. So I'm trying to pick and choose from all these kits what detailing's I like and/or feel was appropriate. For example when I finally get to the 79 ton ship I wouldn't give it a mere carronade like AL did with Dallas but a full size cannon possibly with several 3-4 pounders. What I suspect with these ships is that the upper works would be modified as needed based on duty and wishes of the commanders. If you look at this custom model from shipmodel.com (Richard Glanville's model) you can imagine this was probably how they varied with larger bulwarks and gun ports.

I think that's the idea more of less yes. This bulwark was probably no more than a foot high it definitely served no defensive purpose and likely only a few inches thick. But similar to what pilot schooners had back in the day I dont like the way Als Dallas does it (too short in my opinion) but its fun working this stuff out

Interesting thoughts Joel. I mean if you look at that Chapelle image above there is a small bulwark there the only real difference is the lack of a cap rail and stanchion ribs (which I imagine was there to hold it up). From a pure model building perspective the later sounds more fun though I want to plan ahead if I go the other way id need to remove those "teeth" for the stanchion railings in my laser template. Maybe ill make a version for both... I am curious if a resource exists where I can explore this further. Will check my shop notes

Then you have option II which is the ship having a design more akin to a Baltimore Clipper (ship image is the Pride of Baltimore II). This is featured in the Lively model by Lumbreyard, the Krick and Mamoli kits as well with the stanchion posts not on the waterway but bulwark railing itself. Generally speaking I like this look a lot better and is how I am making my model look however I wouldn't mind some thoughts and how such a ship could have been set up why some models may have chosen one approach over the other there is still time before I am fully committed.

So here is my thoughts on the bulwark. Chapelle's "reconstruction" essentially sees the ship's upper works the same as a yacht or other small vessel. I've been looking at images of various boats out there and you can see a similarity just a small lip for a railing and the rails themselves lined up on the waterway. AL's Dallas and the Bluejacket kit follow this line but there is another way I've seen.

And remember always with laser templates A. overlap when you have joints and also add a pixel of extra length so that way the laser can burn off that extra amount and you will get the size you need!

So here is what I've been up to in the last week. Basically getting the templates for the waterways and margin planks ready for the laser. The margin planks will be made from holly veneer and the waterways will be Cherry (like 1 mm or something a bit thicker) and painted white with the stanchion bits added to made a tiny bulwark. Here you can see a paper printed example of what it will look like on the model. You can also see I did a pattern for the treenails where each plank ends/begins. I think it looks ok the planks represent about 15' in length and I tried to follow the 1,3,5,2,4 pattern but there weren't many needed on this small ship.