The Old Man

I'm using boxwood and built in different section. Sometimes pear. But I've noticed that building a keel in one section has a tendency of hogging and then the whole ship is ruined. I think (especially in a humid atmosphere - island Alaska) that the humidity is something to think about. Especially over time.

I stored some Basswood for about 6 months. Our summer humidity 70-90% ruined it. 

There are different grades of birch plywood available. I use always aircraft grade plywood which is normally 5 to 10 plys, depending of thickness. Very good flat material, easy to saw, sand, etc, and keeps it's dimensions perfectly. Normally lumber yards sell worse quality board which warps, is not homogenous, etc.

I am looking at aircraft quality Birch Plywood for my next project.

My current build I used standard 3 ply lumber yard.  I noticed that when I sanded, I reached the discoloration of the plywood glue. A pink color. Which then required paint.

I never thought about MDF.

I use hand tools only. Is MDF easy to cut with a Frett Saw or similar hand saw?

For Keels and Bulkheads, which wood is recommended?

My problem is that I live on a isolated Alaska Island.  I am currently using a piece of standard 3/16th  3 ply plywood scrap from the lumber yard. What any person would call a junk piece of plywood.  It's all I have. I was wondering what I might order for the next time. I saw Birch on a online hobby store. I am just not sure what to use. Plus, any piece of any wood measuring 12 x 24 inches will cost me $19 to have shipped UPS !!!  USPS ships cheaper, but so far all the stores will ship UPS only. The price I pay for living in paradise. 

If you're judging all possible model kits by the one kit you saw from one manufacturer, that's your loss.

Where and how do you get a chance to look into any other model Kit and compare?

What's the consensus on Birch Plywood?

I am looking at picking up some Birch Plywood.  3/16  4 ply. The same Birch Plywood used by cabinet makers.

I would be using it for any future builds. For Keel and Bulkheads, and misc pieces.

Any thoughts?

Old Man, burnt parts are standard for anything that is laser cut. And yes, you need to spend time sanding them off. It's part of the deal.

I didn't know that. First time I have seen it that way.  I can still see why people would want to replace the wood in many of the kits though. I'm not going to get into any hurry to buy one. Not for that price. I'll stay with my wood twiddling.

The value is partly intellectual property. What do you value a professional's time at? OK, consider all the hours you would put into figuring out how to scratchbuild a given model, add on more hours to figure out how to represent that process to customers, add on more hours to figure out how to design kit pieces to be easily/cost-effectively manufactured and useful to the customer, add on more hours for drafting accurate plans, and so on. That all has to be in the price of a kit. Most hobby builders (most hobbyists in general) ignore the intellectual cost of what they do, but any good businessperson can't afford to do that.

 

An example from my own experience. I'm a vegetable farmer, among other things. It drives me berserk when someone comes up to a farmers market stand and challenges me as to why X produce is so expensive at Y $/lb, when they easily grow it in their garden or neighbor Bob gives it to them from his garden. Well, those people are hobbyists. They aren't charging themselves a living wage for every hour they spend in the garden, they aren't counting the intellectual time it takes to plan out a full-scale farm, they aren't trying to support a family and health insurance and retirement savings from their fun little garden. It's not a fair comparison. 

 

As for contents, those dowels may well be standard hardware store dowels. But the point of a kit, at least most kits, is that it's self-contained. People who buy kits don't necessarily want to open it, and see the instructions start with "now go buy these other things or you can't build the kit". Would you buy a lawnmower that didn't come with sparkplugs, even though they're easy to get at a different store?

 

Of course there's a markup. There's a markup on everything you buy. Pretty much any retail product has a markup of 30-50% from wholesale, because the retailer is an independent business that has to pay for everything involved in modern life from the profits of the business. Then there's a markup over cost to reach the wholesale price, because the manufacturer has to pay for everything involved in modern life, plus the cost of developing the product in the first place. So, yeah, of course the "value" of the kit's contents don't add up to $350 in terms of what's physically there. But only someone who doesn't value others' professional time would think it would.

 

None of which is to say there aren't better and worse kits out there. I know nothing about the kit mentioned above. But, boy, a great way to get under a businessperson's skin is to complain that you could do it cheaper and better yourself. Fine, go do so, and be proud of yourself. I'm in awe of good scratchbuilders. But most of them realize they're paying themselves pennies per hour, whereas everyone involved in designing, producing, and selling a kit is trying to make a living doing it.

I don't believe it would hurt their bottom line any to include a slightly better quality of wood, and an extra ball of string.  Actually, they may end up selling more model kits. Maybe there quality control needs to be improved.  Those wood strips for planking and other items were in very poor shape. Could be they had been in that box for a long time. I don't know. Having burnt marks all over the laser cuts didn't look very nice. The burned dust would come of on your fingers. The above were just a novices observations.

I just had a chance to look at my very first Scale Model Ship Kit. It was a Nelson's Navy, The Snake. Caldercraft I believe.  Having no experience in such ships or kits, makes me no expert. Just a interested observer. The Instruction Booklet looks a little vague.  Not too detailed. They didn't spend money there.The Plans looked great. I learned a lot by looking at them. They were the best part of the Kit. The planks were Basswood or Lime Wood? They were dry, and cracked. I thought they were of poor quality. I would replace them.

The parts laser cut from the hardwood, Mahogany I would guess, showed Laser burnt marks. Is that normal?   The Dowels looked like standard hardware store dowels you can buy for $1.95 each. I did not open or look much at the "Bag of Goodies".  I didn't see any plastic. I'm not sure enough string was included to complete the model. Looked pretty skimpy. Come on, they can't include a little more string!`

For the price the guy payed for it, around $350, I don't see where the value was?   I liked the extensive and large size of the plans, but most of the wood I would replace if I could. I don't understand why, for that price, the wood strips were not of better quality. The Basswood planks, and strips I cut from variety store sheets look much better than those. There must be a huge mark up on those Kits.

I have been thinking about buying one, but I was discouraged after seeing one for the first time.

Which manufactures will sell you only the Plans?

Then that's the way you should build them.     Everyone builds differently and for different reasons.  Go for it.  Open a build log and we will follow.

 

Edit:  I forgot about this one... http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10558-sponge-diving-boat-trechandiri-tirhandil-by-mhmtyrl-mehmet/ Lots of character.

I thought about opening a build log on my current project. Decided not to because: This is my first build. No prior experience. I wanted to make sure that I could complete the model. Not start a log and have it end unfinished. Nor did I want to start a log and have the model end up in the wood stove.  I have taken many pictures during the process. Years ago I was once a wildlife cinematography. I still see some of my footage on TV sometimes. So I have kept good photo's and records of construction. I am 60% finished with the model. A Historical Society is already interested in it. Not that it is good. It's not, compared with what I see on this site. The ship I am building is very historical. As far as our research, no scale model of the ship exists anywhere in the world. We'll see how it all pans out. Then maybe a log later. I put information about the ship in your historical section. If it wasn't for for the Neva's presents in the North Pacific, Hudson Bay Company and the British would have controlled the area, and Alaska would be part of Canada today.

I might point out that not all plastic modellers like to weather their models. This kind of practice is most common in those who make armor models. Many people who make cars like to present them in showroom condition. As do some plane modellers, especially those who make passenger aircraft. And - dare I say, many plastic ship modellers also like to present their models with no weathering.

 

If you have ever seen a real life ship berthed in a harbour, you will see that they are impeccably maintained - especially military ships. As for our sailships, all those sailors had to do in their idle time was to scrub the decks and keep the place clean.

 

So - I will apply weathering where it needs it (sails). But given I am modelling a military sailship, the hull and deck itself should look impeccable. This is not a slovenly merchant ship!

We have four separate boat harbors filled with all kinds ships, of all types and sizes in our community. 200-300 boats at any one time. More in the summer. You can't believe all the derelicts and rust buckets. Coast Guard Buoy Tender showing rust and lot's of grime. NOAA Ship always has some rust. The military ship that come in, the same. The only super clean ships I usually see are the 50-200 foot super Yachts. That's because they are paying some poor kid to run around all day with a rag to shine it up.  Work boats? Ferries? Tugs?, Container ships.  Most are rust buckets. North Pacific is not a friendly place.

I  no longer write very well, and have MS, so sometimes people misconstrue or get confused as to what I am trying to get across. So, if I miss the mark or offend, I don't mean too.  They tell me my IQ has dropped from a Masters level to around 10th grade during the past 10 years.

I like the Character of the old wooden boats or ships. Cracked wood, dripping rust and peeled paint. The smell of diesel oil in the bilge, smells like money.

Weathering?

I call it character.............

All fly tying tools are helpful.

Vise

Threads

Bobbins for Thread

Whip Finishers

and don't forget Sally Hansen Harder than Nails clear nail polish. It soaks into threads and lines, and unlike CA glues, it will not glue your fingers together!

Do you have a little strip cutter? It's a plastic tool that uses a #11 X-Acto blade. The blade adjusts vertically for the depth of cut (thickness of material) and a screw adjusts the width of the cut. It allows you to buy sheet material and quickly cut your own strips for planking or other uses. Comes in very handy; I use mine a LOT. http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXAA63&P=ML

Through National Balsa, you can buy some exotic 1/32 sheets of wood, then use the strip tool to cut your own strips. That can also save you a lot of money when you're on a budget. I will often double plank using a thin veneer (1/32) for the final finish. I just use contact cement to apply them to the planking after the entire model is planked.

I use one of these. Bought for a few dollars.  Will cut 1/32 and 1/16. Excellent guide for measuring width. It's very fast. I can cut 30 pieces in about 5 minutes. However, it will only cut material to 16 inches in length. But it works for me.

For rigging I have been using Sally Hansen Harder Than Nails clear nail polish.  It dries very fast. Soaks deep into the thread and line, and best of all, it will not stick or glue your fingers like CA glue.

Old Man

 

Try these guys out for your wood supplies. Their prices are very reasonable and you'll stretch your dollars a lot further buying from them rather than the variety store.

 

http://www.nationalbalsa.com/

 

Regards

Craig

Thank you.  I am aware of the source and will use it next time.   A Basswood 1/16 x 4 x 24 costs $4.69 at my local store!

Have you tried using a very light sand blasting to whether the plastic?  I know the people who build WWII vehicle models use it sometimes. They also use some "Special Wash" that they purchase for weathering.

Personally, I like the realistic weathering look. It gives a model "character".  

I wish I had your talent for ropes and rigging.  I don't have enough feeling left in my fingers for such detailed work.

I have been looking through the Forum for weeks. Very talented people here. But, I do believe they are missing out by not expanding their horizons.

Copper bottoms on the ships in my harbor are greenish.  Saltwater I believe.  All fittings above the waterline are very green.

Yes,  I am building a Historic Russian 1803 Merchant Ship.  No plans, and very little documentation about the ship. I scratch build. Using 3/16 plywood scraps from lumber yard for keel and bulkheads. Only 3 ply, and not very good wood to work with. Wood chips bad when I saw it.  I can purchase Basswood 1/16 sheets in a local variety store. But they are expensive. I laminated those sheets with Elmers glue to make my own wood for decks and other parts. Cut my own Basswood strips for planks. I soak them in my Aluminum Fly Rod case filled with water.  Wrapping the planks in wet paper towel then microwave 30 seconds works real good. Whatever I can find in Hardware store. Working on rigging which is way over my head. This is my first ever attempt to build a ship. Never even built a kit before.  Almost drives a guy to drinking.  About 60% done I would think time wise. I hope to be done by March.  Which is the time to begin gardening.

I'm an old independent SOB, so I'm sure many people are taking me wrong in my comments. I have always viewed the world differently, and marched by a different drum, than most people.

I'll never wash my truck or cut grass again.

I have spent a long time reading post on this web site. Looking at models. Reading builds.

There will always be a market (desire) for the way Model Ships have been built in the past, and the way they are built today. All I am saying is there is an area in Model Ship Building where it can expand.  More people would enter the hobby if it did not appear so elitist. Step back from the tree and look at the forest. I am looking at it from the point of view of a outsider, a new builder. Past traditions, traditional ways of doing things mean nothing to me. I'm not in a circle. I am outside the circle trying to understand it.

I see all model making progressing toward more realism. Is that good or bad? Neither. It just opens up new horizons and more possibilities.  Yes, you have a few models the are more realistic. I love the rust and dirt. Cracked wood decks, chipped paint, ragged ropes and lines. More people would join the hobby if they saw options available to them, other than the ships in the Galleries. I showed them to a friend, who is newly retired, and looking for a hobby. When he saw those ship models, he said " I can't do that" "Building a ship like that from a kit is way over my head". He had no further desire to pursue the hobby further.

Do you want more people to take up the hobby of Model Ship Building?  Then some of your circles may need breaking. New ideas including building more realistic models need to be embraced. People who ask questions should not be ridiculed or put down. Yes, there are people who visit this web page, some who are seasoned builders, who do just that.

I hope I made sense as to what I have found, and what I am trying to convey in the above posts.

Neat ship. I would leave about 10% of the rust. 

I think peoples attitudes are changing.  Again. Ask your local museum or Historical society which model they would select. I asked mine and have an answer.

The world is changing. People are beginning to look for different things. Providing a weather looked ship, does not equate to poor workmanship.

I have never washed my cars or trucks. But, I did wash my and wax my boat. I'm not a total barbarian.

My 2 cents and not having a go, but this and a handful of other topics come and go like the rising and setting of the Sun.  If you had performed a search this same question would come up at least 3 times I can remember.

 

And generally concludes with "its your ship, build it how you want to'

 

 

You must be confusing MSW with some other site because this in general is far from the truth.

 

My usual response to this question is that in my opinion making a ship look weathered and realistic runs the risk of looking more like poor workmanship, might be due to the scales or subject, don't know.  Until the next time.

 

Slog

  "it's your ship, build it how you want to"   GREAT!

I am only suggesting that there should be a place for the Realistic Builder.   There is room for both.  I can't find that anywhere. Not like I can with car, military vehicle, or other models. 

My challenge to discuss this with Museums and Historical Societies stand. What would they prefer to exhibit, if given a choice? Ask them.

Ships and boats are expensive, kind of like your car. Owners go to a lot of trouble to keep them looking good as you probably do for your car. Sitting at the curb you probably have it looking nice, out on the road in dirty conditions for a while, it will look rough until you clean it up. I expect a model, sitting in a stand to look new, if a part of a Dorma, she should reflect the conditions depicted. Weathering a stand alone model has no appeal to me, others feel differently, so, as indicated in the above post, do what you wish, it is you that needs to be pleased, not me or anyone else.

jud

I live in Alaska.  Real Alaska men never wash their trucks...... had mine for 8 years. Never washed. Nor the trucks I owned before.

There will always be a place for detailed quality. Always.

I'm just suggesting that with many modelers today, whether model cars, boats, military vehicles, many people are moving to the more realistic look.  There should be a place for such a look with model ship builders. I appears to me that the inner circle of high quality, detail oriented, model ship builders look down or feel somehow threatened by anyone suggesting anything different. Not vice versa. 

There should be a place for both. There should be a place for both..........

Here's a open challenge.......for every one.  Go visit your local Museum or Historical Society. Ask them which Scale Model Ship Model they would chose to add to their collection. A traditional very clean detailed Fabergé model, or a model of a historic and real ship. A model showing a working ship, with all it's environmental wear and tear, mud and grime.  A model of a ship presented the  way it would have been. if viewed in it's historic environment. I'll bet you will be surprised by their answer.

The world is changing.

I have been looking at the completed ship models in the Galleries. What great work. Not only Museum quality, but also Jewelry quality. I can't even imagine producing work like that.  But what about realism?

Now before you spit out your coffee and look for a rope to put around my neck, let me explain.

I have a friend who builds models of WWII Vehicles. They buy there Kits, then go to great depths to modify them to look real. Special paints, mud, grim, dust, and they even burn holes in their models to make them look damaged. For those modelers, "realism", not a sharp clean model, is what counts.

When I visit our local Harbors I see wooden ships and boats. Large and small. Old and new. Fishing Boats, Tug Boats, Sail Boats of every type, Freighters, Ferries and Work Boats. Those boats are all rough looking. The wood is split, crushed, or even missing. Most need painting. All are somewhat dirty. Waterlines are marked by seawater, the sails are dirty, the ropes are frayed. Copper bottom? A Copper Bottom on a ship is green, not copper colored. The same with the copper deck fittings. Green.  The ships look real. The look alive.

As a person just starting in the hobby, the near perfect ships in the Galleries scare me. I know that I cannot, and never will produce such work. It discourages me from buying a Kit. Why should I even bother…..

Has anyone built any ship models based upon realism? Based upon working ships. Models with flaws, broken timbers, grime, cracked paint, and even barnacles on the hull. Building ship models in a realistic fashion could be a untried market.

I believe building more realistic ships, flaws and all, would attract more people to the hobby. Encourage more people to display their work.

I would like to add that there will always be a place for the Museum and Jewelry quality.

OK, now you can spit out your coffee…….

Old Man,

 

Do you get pleasure and enjoyment from the hours you spend on your models?

Do you get satisfaction from finding and reusing scrap materials?

Does this hobby and methodology fit your interests and budget?

 

If yes, then you are doing it EXACTLY the right way for you.

 

Enjoy it.

 

Regards,

 

Richard

Yes, to all the above, until I started working on the rigging. Poor eyesight and little feeling in my fingers. Just can't seem to do those fancy knots.  So I'll have to cheat a little.

As a new builder, and a retired person with a very low monthly cash flow, I am afraid to order a Kit. Living on a isolated Island, I am forced to buy everything sight unseen.   If I spend $300-$400, plus shipping cost, for a Kit that has poor materials, then I am forced to replace those materials for another added cost.  Many times the shipping costs for items I order, exceed the price of the item I am ordering!

I would love to build a custom Kit, with the finest custom Laser cut materials. But, I am new to the hobby. What if I make a mistake? One that cannot be corrected. Or did a poor job in building. Which is most likely.  Now it's $500-$700 in the wood stove.

I guess that's why I am only building with scrap materials. Or making my own by purchasing 1/16 Basswood sheets and laminating it together with Elmers Glue.