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Hubac's Historian

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  1. Hubac's Historian
    Hi Cedric, Yes, at best, I think these images are vaguely impressionistic; somewhere, in there, is some truth about SR's appearance. If anyone does know, it is likely to be Michel. As always, I welcome anyone to come forward with their insight and opinions. I believe Michel had mentioned, once, that the Puget drawings for SR's ornamentation exist somewhere in the Louvre. My understanding is that Berain re-interpreted these drawings (and presumably, elements of the ships first ornamentation) to create a new decor, at the time of her refit. Has anyone out there ever seen these first Puget drawings?
  2. Hubac's Historian
    Not because it particularly informs this build, but simply because I happened upon these images in my recent internet searches - I would like to point out a few things regarding the early appearance of SR. It would be difficult to argue that the following two images are of any significant value as historical references, other than as folk-art, but nevertheless they seem to be the only two images that represent the very first incarnation of Soleil Royal, before her re-fit: While these two images seem to differ more than they agree (the presence of a middle-deck entry port on one, the relative profussion of upper bulwark ornamentation on the first image, the location of the main and fore channels), it is interesting to note where there is agreement. In particular, the arrangement of the headrails and the figurehead are very similar. And while the depiction of these details is crude, I will say that they seem to mimic what we can see of La Reyne's headrail arrangement. This is the main reason why I believe these images to be representative of SR, after her launching. What's really interesting to me is what little we can see of the stern ornamentation. It is known that Peter Puget designed the original ornamentation and he is well known, and often maligned, for his large figurative works. What I find interesting about the first drawing is the large nereid figure between the middle and quarter deck levels of the stern. A similar figure appears in the more realistic second drawing. Likewise, at the lower deck level, where the stern evolves into the counter timber, the first drawing shows a horse figure, which may also exist in the second drawing. It seems to me that, in actuality, these figures probably looked very much like the proposed and actual ornament for The Monarch of 1668 - another of the vessels that Puget designed ornamentation for. I don't think it is too far a leap of faith to say that, in her original appearance, Soleil Royal was probably architecturally and ornamentally a very similar ship to the Monarch. The particular motifs would have been different, but the probable arrangement of her quarter galleries - all open walks - would probably have been very similar. Also, the Monarch being a heavily decorated ship, was probably almost on a par with SR's level of ornamentation. I don't think there are any hard conclusions to be drawn here; just interesting possibilities of what might have been. Interestingly, both drawings of SR only show 15 gun pory opennings on the first deck.
  3. Hubac's Historian
    Yes, Michel's ship is indeed a masterpiece - a timber for timber re-construction of the real thing. I can relate to the end-of-year shool shuffle, as we are all quite busy with the same. Progress continues, albeit at an even slower pace. I am so looking forward to your contributions, Cedric, as I continue to watch Michel's ship rise from the stocks.
  4. Hubac's Historian
    And by all means, please continue! Cedric will soon be posting on MSW with his La Reine conversion project, and this is becoming a very fertile conversation about SR and her contemporaries.
  5. Hubac's Historian
    Your translations are perfectly clear and well understood. Although, I can empathize with the feeling that one loses the subtlety of their intended meaning when they rely on things like Google Translate to express their thoughts. I have to say, though, that GT does a pretty good job. Mostly, it is the differences in ship nomenclature that cause most of the problems; precients/wales - comme-ci, comme-ca! When it comes to new subjects, particularly French first and second marine, there are almost too many beautiful and interesting vessels to choose from. There is a modeler on the Arsenal site who has done a model of La Belle that is so extraordinary, he has opened my eyes to the possibilities of this pretty little ship.
  6. Hubac's Historian
    Your cannons look incredible! As for completing your SR, I think you will certainly get there, and that there's another ship in you, yet.
  7. Hubac's Historian
    The interior structure is quite spectacular, Michel. The framing is done in pear? Is your plan to eventually do a full masting and rigging, or will she be an admiralty style model?
  8. Hubac's Historian
    Stunning ship Michel! You should post some pics of the framing and interior bulkheads, so that everyone can get a sense for the amount of research and effort that have gone into her, so far.
  9. Hubac's Historian
    Welcome Cedric! I am sure that you will find that the knowledge and eagerness to share, here at MSW, goes quite beyond expectations. In the short time that I have been a member, here, I have learned so much from so many. It never ceases to amaze me the particular talents of others.
  10. Hubac's Historian
    Hey Dan, Sometimes I take for granted that I can just see the Michelangelo at our meetings, but I've really enjoyed reading through this log, so far. There have been a number of ingenious solutions to vexing problems. I'll be following along. She's really shaping up beautifully, Dan!
  11. Hubac's Historian
    You seem to work at a steady pace with tremendous progress in a short timeframe. How long did it take you to research and develop plans for Katherine?
  12. Hubac's Historian
    On the subject of girdling, I remember reading some time ago that there were problems with the Katherine after her launch, in terms of her handling characteristics. The inclusion of this detail, is a very nice touch, and a subject that one rarely ever considers when thinking about ship models.
  13. Hubac's Historian
    Doris, I really am so floored by what you do. As is the case with your other models that I have seen, the Royal Katherine is so cleanly worked and her lines are so fair - if I didn't know it was a model, I would swear it were the real thing springing up before our eyes. You have such a strong sense for how the architecture of these floating batteries should look. And your resourcefullness, in finding such creative ways to simulate realistic details, makes you a ship-modeling genius in my eyes. You answer one question for me and I have ten new ones. Rather than ask those questions now, though, I will do as you suggested and read through your Royal Caroline build log. The basic question your models provoke is this: with results so clean and fair, using such simple materials and tools - why build a ship-model any other way? Well, I will be watching with great fascination from here on out!
  14. Hubac's Historian
    Hi Doris, What sort of card stock do you use? Is it specialty cardboard that you might buy at an artist's supply? I was thinking I might adapt some of your technique to my model of Soleil Royal. I'll need to create new interior structural support and cambered deck beams because I am scratch-building all new decks in this, otherwise, plastic kit. My thought was that card would be easier to layout, cut and shape than styrene sheet, as an underlayment for what will ultimately be wooden strip planking. Or, would it not be advisable to glue wood strip to cardboard false decks, because of humidity fluctuations between different materials? Is that why you use plastic foils to simulate decking?
  15. Hubac's Historian
    Ken,all of your deck work looks really good. I love that there is subtle variation in color among the deck planking. I agree that painting those interior bulkheads was a sensible compromise. She's really coming along beautifully and the work is so clean and nice!
  16. Hubac's Historian
    What I need that I don't have right now is SPACE. Plastic models lend themselves pretty well to construction on the kitchen table, and then being tucked away in their custom made build-box until the next session; there's no putting away of machinery, just some simple hand tools and maybe a Dremel to deal with. Plus, I'd really like my scratch-build to be in a larger scale than 1/100. It takes a special talent to build 17th C. Men-O-War in small scales, and not everyone can be Donald McNary or Lloyd McCaffery. So, again, display space is at a premium in our small apartment. At some point in the actual build, I'll have to give away my first SR . The other issue is that, while I'm quite a competent woodworker, I'll still have to learn the art of framing a few smaller wooden models before I take on something immense like SR. Some day... Some day!
  17. Hubac's Historian
    Hey Vossie! Yeah, that was always my idea; that once I had finished with a plan, I'd publish it on the site for anyone to use, improve upon, etc. Michel, I'm glad you are joining the discussion. There are many, here, who have expressed their gratitude for your contributions to my research, so far, and I am certainly not least among them. I am in agreement with you, Michel, on all of the points that you are making, regarding the frieze space between the knees of the head, the size of the middle deck gun ports, and the alignment of the arched main deck ports. These are all inaccuracies of the Heller kit. And I will ask you to take the long view of what I am doing now, as it relates to what I plan to do further into the future; this project is providing me with a sound research base to eventually build an architecturally sound, fully scratch-built model of SR. Some day, I will have the space and resources to make a really good wooden, framed model of the ship, and when that day comes, all of the resources and information you (and Mr. Lemineur, Mr. Peters and Cedric, among others) have shared with me, will come more fully to fruition. In the meantime, though, my objective is to make a much better model of the Heller kit than the kit, alone, provides for. I am aware of the problems that you mention, however, there does come a point where one goes beyond kit-bashing to making a fully scratch-built model. If, for example, I am going to completely rebuild the bowsprit and headrails and carve a new figurehead, and scratch-build everything above the second battery, well then, I might as well draw up a correct hull plan snd make the entire thing from scratch. At this time, though and for a variety of reasons, I am just not ready to go that route. I'm capable of it, but not ready. And so, with this model project, there are certain lengths I am willing to go to add a detail, and/or modify some aspect of the kit to try and correct some of its inherent flaws, and there are other things about the kit that I can look past, right now; like the too small second battery ports, or the run of the main deck ports, or that the space for the bow frieze tapers. That being said, I am always glad for the lesson in what should be because that is knowledge that will be applied to future models. Dan, the f'ocsle deck is armed with three guns, each side, and they are just out of view in the Berain and Compardel drawings. I am 99% certain, now, that my reduced scale for the horsehead provides enough clearance for the cathead without having to alter anything about the position of the cathead. the greatest value to me, right now, of this much clearer Berain drawing of the bow is that I can now draw a much improved bow angel. I'll trace this, instead, and scale it to fit. As always, thank you to everyone who stops by, weighs in, and for those likes. Even, and perhaps especially, if you don't agree with what I am doing - I am interested to hear what you have you say. All the best - Marc
  18. Hubac's Historian
    Hi Doris, I've wanted to witness your process for some time! I am so excited to see you build the Katherine, and I will definitely be following along. Your work is really exceptional! Regards, Marc
  19. Hubac's Historian
    This will be my Derby themed entry: The winner of my re-scaling derby is the red horse, on the outside track! A copy of him has also been placed above the headrail escutcheon, where it is more apparent how the decreases in scaling affect the overall appearance and position of the horse carving. The middle horse was an intermediate re-scaling effort, and the top horse is just a copy of my original path tracing. It doesn't seem like much, but the heavy 1/32" I gained between the bridge of the horse's nose and where the cathead timber projects will probably be enough clearance to make the whole thing fit seamlessly, while providing (IMO) a better, more streamlined interpretation of the original Berain/Compardel rendering. The reason this works is that there is actually a solid 1/8" of clear passage between the headrail escutcheon and the cathead timber. That space is increased, slightly, by the longer-bias distance that the horse head carving can project from the escutcheon before it hits the cathead. If need be, I can cheat the headrails back a good 1/32", without it being apparent. Fortunately, I still have the first SR I built all those years ago - against which I can see these relationships and take measurements. Here's a shot of the original drawing: Here's a shot of the rendering without the background. This doesn't show up so well, without the white background, but it is a little less cluttered without the black line drawing that is the original tracing layer. In any case, I think the lower profile horse is more in keeping with Berain's intent. The headrail escutcheons are different, so necessarily, my horse is a little more elongated, but I can live with it. Alright, one last picture that sucks a little less than the others: I'll still need to edit the Roman tunic so that it re-connects with the angel figure, but I am tired and have had enough for the night.
  20. Hubac's Historian
    Great observation, Dan, regarding the arched main deck ports. This is how Heller has moulded them, so that the port sills run parallell with the wale strake just beneath them. With regard to the cathead timbers, you have brought my attention to a bit of a design problem; a problem, whereby the standard kit architecture isn't going to allow me to simply add this horsehead detail, as it's currently drawn. Because I was planning to use the kit headrails (a nice detail of the Heller kit that would be difficult to improve upon, from scratch), I had not bothered to draw them in. I have simply suggested the top edge of the headrail escutcheon, as it relates to the horsehead. The Berain drawing/Compardel Painting of the bow, show the cathead timbers extending out, just forward of the bridge of the horse's snout. The following link takes you to a nice waterline model of the Heller kit, which shows pretty clearly the standard relationship of the cathead timbers to the headrail: http://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=G2K1cdzB&id=F0B0CE36616C3A6F325006FC8C3F0F2B17225E49&thid=OIP.G2K1cdzBhSy9N9CHzi3MpAEsDJ&q=heller+soleil+royal&simid=608024584384217243&selectedIndex=2 As I've drawn it, the cathead timber would want to run through the horse's snout, in order to be properly supported by the cathead knee. I'll have to take some measurements to see what sort of clearance I have. Perhaps, i can just re-scale the drawing of the horsehead a little bit, but more than likely I will have to redraw it altogether, if I want to keep this detail.
  21. Hubac's Historian
    Great work on the interior, EJ! One thought that occurs to me has to do with the "dreaded sanding phase". Naturally, there will be a ton of dust. What is your plan for making these interior compartments, at least temporarily airtight, so that they don't fill up with dust?
  22. Hubac's Historian
    In the following series of pictures, you can see that the armament is now fully in place. This enabled me to correct a few positional errors in the quarter deck cap rails. There is some overlapping of detail on one of the ornamental end caps, as it overlays the plank scallop detail, but some of that scallop detail will remain visible, and as can be seen in Berain's black and white drawing - where certain details overlap, the dominant detail seems to prevail; in this case, the end cap ornament is the dominant detail and so it will not be reduced. I still have not corrected the problem of overlapping lines, where paths intersect and certain path objects are intended for the foreground and others for the background. I suspect this has something to do with the fact that I have not yet "stroked" the paths, but I am going to make a test copy of the document soon, in order to test out a few different ideas about how to solve this problem. I drew in a lower port accent for the main deck ports, which will be affixed to the wale strake just beneath the ports. I've omitted this new detail, in the areas reserved for where I am going to re-locate the main and fore channels. The location of the waist ladder is one port aft of where it appears on the model. This gives me better visual balance, relative to the vertical skid timbers that are evenly spaced, just forward of the ladder. Also in place, now, are the scupper ports on the lower and middle deck levels. Here, one can see the protective anchor sweep, and just forward of that on the lower battery, I've drawn in a 15th "hunting port." The first Soleil Royal was pierced (along with La Reyne, before her) with 16 ports on the first battery. While my inclusion of this forward-most port still leaves me one shy of her actual first battery piercing, it is still one port closer to accuracy than the Tanneron model, which is pierced for 14. I am told that, in practice, this forward most port would not - for the most part - have been armed, except when in chase, the next gun aft would be shifted to this forward pointing port. Again, including this detail is a good example of an attempt on my part to create a better impression of accuracy; although, of course, if one counts the ports they will realize that one port is missing. I haven't decided whether I will simply scribe in the port detail and add hinge strapping, hinge barrels and a ring bolt, or if I will actually cut in the port. The spacing between the anchor sweep and the hawser detail is tight, but workable, and in reality, a little less congested than I've drawn it. I'm just not good enough with the software to properly depict the foreshortening of the bows and how the hawse holes should appear in plan view. Next, I'll fill in all the railing detail and then I'll start filling in the quarter galleries and the frieze details. I realize that this is all incredibly tedious, on my part, but I find it helpful to see exactly how the arrangement of details falls in relation to each other. I can now see, for example, that my window surround, just forward of the quarter gallery, will need to be simplified quite a bit.
  23. Hubac's Historian
    Hi E.J., Is that a mast plate I see at the base of the foremast? If so, was thst stock or an add-on. I ask because I often wonder what I will do when it is time to step masts. On such a big ship, a re-enforcing mast plate makes sense to me. Or would mast-partner (I think they are called?) wedges be adequate. Curious what your thoughts are on this issue.
  24. Hubac's Historian
    Interesting insight into the evolution of rigging, EJ, and the transfer of complexity closer to the working areas of the yardarms. Must have made for less clutter and tangle of lines, especially in the heat of battle when damage is making a mess of the decks.
  25. Hubac's Historian
    Ah, yes - I think you are right about that! That would make sense. Thanks, Vossie.

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