tmj
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Iron Braces on Hanging Knee Deck Supports... HMS Victory
tmj replied to tmj's topic in Nautical/Naval History
Hello Allan, My main go to has been "The Anatomy of Nelsons Ships" by Longridge. There is another 'old' book in my collection, that I recall, but can't seem to locate at the moment. I'll have to go digging for that one before naming names. I also just received John Mckay's book "The 100-Gun Ship Victory". It arrived today, so I have not had time to look at it. It's quite possible that the information that I seek truly lies within the books I have been looking at and I've just not delved deep enough into those books to find what I seek. Perhaps the info is in McKay's book. Time for thorough research is something that I simply do not have right now. It's all I can do to get a few hours of work done on my model every week. Research will have to wait about four years, until I retire, then I will have all the time in the world for both research and building. -
I have two reference books showing these iron braces attached to hanging knees. Those iron braces are shown with dotted lines, which to me means that they are 'hidden' lines, lines showing something that is not on the front side of the view being shown, but rather on the back, 'hidden' side of that view... like a mechanical engineering drawing. I've also looked at photos, online, but those photos never show both sides of the knee brace. I'm confused. Common sense tells me that those iron braces need to be on 'BOTH' sides of the hanging knees, but my drawings show that to not be the case, via those hidden/dotted lines. The image below shows the current progress on my Victory section. I need to know if displaying iron braces on the visible sides of the hanging knees, supporting my Orlop deck, would be proper, or improper.
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Bob Cleek and Mark P... thank you for the information. You folks have been 'extremely' helpful on this subject. I 'will' be displaying limbers, hanging out of the ends of my sectional model's limber channels, however. I'll not be using chain. My limbers will be constructed from scale sized rope and designed to function in the manner, and for the purpose described by you folks in your posts. As for bilge cleanup and sanitization... I'll leave that to the 1st Lieutenant division, and those who are on punishment detail as a result of disciplinary action and/or Captain's Mast! 😗
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While gazing at my model, I realized something. I just missed a 'GREAT' opportunity to display the true ballast of this ship, known as "Pigs of Iron". There needs to be bare 'ends' of "Pigs of Iron" protruding from the shingle stones on each end of this sectional model. I'll note this change order and take care of it ASAP. I can easily grind the ballast out with my Dremel, insert the pigs, then re-ballast around the little piggies! That should make for a wonderful historic effect! I can even rust the little piggies a bit before installation. I now just need to find out exactly how these pigs of iron were truly laid out within the bilge, for proper scale appearance. I thank members 'Morgan' and 'allenyed' for 'this' fantastic bit of inspiration in my build! "Thanks Gary, thanks Allen!"
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This is all fine and dandy, but we seem to be getting off topic. How did the British use their limber chains if and when they were used? Would there have been one chain per channel, or maybe 'two' chains per channel? If anyone can come up with anything definite about this, that would be great. If not, I'll take advantage of my right to artistic licensing and just do something that looks nice whether it is accurate, or not.
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A bit of ballast installed on the 'shot-locker' side of the section. Glue is drying.
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Perhaps that was what I read about. I honestly cannot remember. It's been a long time!
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I've read how bad bilges could be on many ships, especially pirate ships, however. Wouldn't first rate military vessels, typically being run as a much tighter ships than most, vehemently frown on such behavior as using the bilge as a toilet... and likely harshly punish anyone caught doing so? I'm just supposing here. It seems as though military discipline, aboard ship, was much, much harsher back in those old days than it was while 'I' was in the Navy in a more modern era.
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I read that too, somewhere, a long time ago. I might display such hanging out of the ends of my Victory cross section limber-channels, but not sure. My biggest curiosity was pertaining to how they would have actually been used. Would it have been just one, single, length of chain to be crudely dragged back and forth to dislodge stuff, or would it have possibly been a circular length of chain, wrapped around something like a 'pulley', on each end of the chain, where the chain could be constantly rotated in one direction, or another to not only dislodge debris, but also drag that debris to a desired location where it could be easily cleaned out, somewhat like a rotating 'bicycle chain'. I'm wondering if I need to display only one chain hanging out of each limber channel, or should there be 'two' chains hanging out of the end of each channel...??? "Hmm."
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Were limber 'chains' ever used within the limber channels to dislodge debris, etc., or were the limber boards simply removed and the limber channels manually cleaned out by hand?
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A bit of 'ballast' added to this side of the model. No more ugly joints to distract my eyes from other fine details while I work. I really like the way this ballast looks. This ballast is going to not only look 'GREAT' when I eventually fill the bilge with ballast and barrels, but it also appears to be extremely close to scale, in both size and color! "Win, Win!" I'll do the same thing to the 'other' side of the model, tomorrow, after the PVA/Water solution has dried thoroughly.
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Much better. I now have proper doors on the pump house!
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Construction of Masts for 18th Century 'Ships of the Line'
tmj replied to tmj's topic in Nautical/Naval History
That is 100% the 'look' that I am after. Very nice job! It makes for a great contrast in colors that also depicts the actual construction methods used to create the mast. I'm thinking about taking your method a step further and segmenting the long pieces into 'shorter length' pieces, much like the deck, or the hull of a ship would be segmented in shorter lengths of planks. Trees do not typically grow tall enough to construct a full height mast of the model I seek, nor would they likely have enough strength to endure the wind load stresses even if they did grow that tall and were used in such long lengths. I'm thinking that 'that' is why there are so many iron 'bands' around HMS Victory's mast. Those bands must be keeping numerous, shorter length timbers banded together where certain timbers both end in one place and new timbers begin in another place. Kinda like building a mast that looks like an elongated 'chessboard', if that is an accurate enough description of what I see in my mind. Thank you for chiming in and sharing that photo. You have been extremely helpful! -
Construction of Masts for 18th Century 'Ships of the Line'
tmj replied to tmj's topic in Nautical/Naval History
I just might give this method of mast fabrication a go. The fancy joinery will obviously not be necessary, however. Different species of wood, with slightly different, contrasting colors, laminated together might look really nice after being turned down to a finished product. "Hmm?" -
I spent the better part of today taking care of needful details within the bilge area. A 'punch-list', if you will. While I was able to tackle everything, I also inadvertently created an entirely 'new' detail that now must be added to that list of truly needful bilge items. "Arghh!" I'm beginning to wonder if I will EVER get out of the bilge and start making upper-level progress! The last thing on my bilge list was to create access doors to the outside of the pump housing. Mission accomplished, however. I've now created a pump house straight out of the infamous "Winchester Mystery Mansion" where stairs lead to nowhere and doors open up to walls. Should my model be displayed on the 'shot-locker' side only, this would not be an issue, but it will be viewed from all sides. I now need to install doors to the 'inside' of my pump house too, just to make things visually jive. I honestly never considered this up front. It just bugged me that there was no way to get inside of the pump house, so I built doors. It wasn't until I had finished my work and put it up to eye level, for examination, that my "Duh" moment hit me *insert Homer Simpson sound effects here*. Oh well, just another day in the ol' hole! I'll get to work on those interior doors tomorrow. As for now, I'm out of time. I now need to get started on a batch of 'Biltong'...
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I'm happy with the PVA/water glue. It dries unnoticeably when used to glue my sand media down. I see no color changes in my sand, nor any unwanted 'sheen' in the final product. It adheres very well too. I can turn the veneer up on its edge and pound it down on my workbench without losing a single grain of sand. I'm impressed! Very durable to say the least. I've always wondered just how strong this gluing system would be and now I know! 🙂
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Construction of Masts for 18th Century 'Ships of the Line'
tmj replied to tmj's topic in Nautical/Naval History
Perfect! Thanks all. This is exactly what I was searching for! -
I hope that I am posting this in the proper place. If not, feel free to move this post to its proper location! I'm currently working on a 'cross-section' of HMS Victory. The main mast of this build is a simple wooden dowel, as is the case with masts on most models, however. That cannot be the case on the actual ship(s). The masts were surely too large and too straight to be carved out of a single large/tall tree. I'm thinking that they must have been fabricated via many laminations of numerous precisely shaped timbers. Does anyone have details of 'exactly' how these masts were fabricated back when?
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I'm thinking ahead for when it becomes time to glue ballast into the bilge area. The below photo is an experiment using a 3 to 1 ratio of water to PVA glue, and sand. I sprinkled some sand on a thin piece of veneer and then used an eyedropper to carefully drip my glue mixture into the sand. I then sprinkled some sand into the plate and poured the remaining glue mixture into the sand, TOTALLY saturating the sand. Lastly, I tilted the plate to make all of the excess glue mixture run away from the sandy 'beach' and leave a thick puddle of pure glue and water to dry all by itself. I want to see how durable this process actually is, and also just how clear and 'neutral' looking the PVA/Water solution will appear after it has dried in all three tests. This will help me to determine just how I need to glue my ballast when that time comes. I'll post another photo when everything has finally cured.
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Hello Allan! The below photo was taken within Victory's bilge. These are the things that I am referring to as 'doublers'. You'll have to pardon my blurbage until I learn the true nomenclature of many unfamiliar parts. It's impossible to see in the photo of my model, but 'my' doublers are also tapered just as the ones shown in this photo. 🙂
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I also need to get some ballast glued into the bilge area, on the outside of my formers/ribs. I'm getting tired of looking at my bad joinery taking place there. Those big, ugly gaps are driving me nuts!
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I've tarred/waterproofed things inside of the bilge section of my pump locker, added some of the 'doublers' to the outer tops of my bilge stanchions, and planked the interior of my hull up to the next higher level gun deck. I'm not sure if the pump housings were actually waterproofed on the real ship, but when I don my engineers cap, I see this as being an absolute necessity be it factual, or not. I also like the look of the doublers atop those stanchions so I will now be adding them to both sides of 'all' of the bilge stanchions. It adds a really nice realistic effect. I'll then need to file out the gun ports, on the lowest level gun deck, and also add some very thin headers, footers and jams inside of the gun port openings. I think that I will use something like padauk wood, bloodwood, or some sort of wood that has a reddish tint to it for the interior framing of the gun ports. I'm trying to avoid using any paint. I'm trying to use wood that naturally simulates the ships colors without using any paint. So far, so good on the wood colors. I'm also still debating on whether or not I should simulate nails and fasteners for the interior planking of the hull walls within the areas of my gun decks. What do 'you' folks think? Should I nail those planks, or just leave them clean looking and free of fasteners?
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Thank you, Mr., Coyle!
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So sorry, Mark! It's been so long since I was last here, I didn't realize that I was posting this in the wrong place... until you mentioned it and I just now looked!!! Is there any way that you, as a moderator, can move all of my posts, for this build, to the proper build log location? I have a few posts here and I don't know how to do that.
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One more note, for those with really accurate eyes. The arch of my lowest gun deck is not yet set. It is not glued in place. The true 'curve', or arch will finally be set only after I build the second story of my pump house and also fabricate the wooden stanchions that will support that lowest level gun deck. I'll be fabricating all of the scale stanchions myself. I cannot purchase any pre-made stanchions of proper geometry, nor proper scale. Gonna have to make 'em myself! That lowest gun deck will ultimately have a proper arch and look totally correct after all is said and done!
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