.jpg.6c90d67e7e9071af590f4d4a2a8bc908.jpg)
Waldemar
-
Posts
771 -
Joined
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Gallery
Events
Everything posted by Waldemar
-
.thumb.jpg.c6343966b029e7941df5b987d129aac6.jpg)
Hi Patrick, huge congratulations! The model is wonderful, but just as good is your ability to finish a very long, arduous build. Have you noticed that, for some reason, it is only sailing ship models that are suitable for beautifying prestigious spaces like living rooms in houses or halls in residences? You said another one was the Mary Rose...? 🙂- 756 replies
-
- 2
-
-
- galleon
- golden hind
- (and 2 more)
-
Hopefully it may be even more interesting for you, as this model is believed to be actually left by the Sea People in one of the fortress they occupied in the Nile delta. I just wanted to make sure you knew of its existence.
-
That's right, again. There is more about it in the book and it was used to date the model, but I am not sure if it will be needed by Dick. But I would also scan the passage if necessary.
-
No, there will be no comment from me. I'm just suggesting material that you will or will not use. From the book The Gurob Ship-Cart Model and its Mediterranean Context by Shelley Wachsmann. It's about a model of a vessel found in Egypt, yet identified by Wachsmann as a Sea People's ship. Link to its digital model (showing both remains and reconstruction): Gurob Ship-Cart Model Digital Supplement - VIZIN - Institute for the Visualization of History, Inc. Sample page: And also two illustrations of another model (4th cent. BC?) taken from this work:
-
Now perfect! I don't think I'll ever forget Ab Hoving's words (from memory): „having seen many dozens of wrecks and models of Dutch ships from this era, I can't even imagine a single instance where the lowest strakes don't cover the sternpost”. But I promise to not interfere with your build at least for a while... 🙂
-
Thank you all. For the time being, and just for my personal use, I consider these coils to be temporary holders for the two heaviest yards, used only in very special situations (say, like replacing worn or otherwise out-of-service yard hoisting ropes). However, any other convincing solutions are always welcomed.
-
I am terribly curious to see what solution Dick finds and what methods he uses. Steven, with your assistance it will certainly be much easier for him, I think more so than with anyone else's. And more interesting for others. I'm now going to limit myself to just watching rather than actively participating. It's bound to be an interesting project, plus Dick's ability to see his projects through to completion.
-
I have to admit that I was also thinking of these coils as spar ropes, or as extra protection for the yards during battle etc. I also looked into some nautical works and found something very close. Among others in Bonnefoux, Pâris, Dictionnaire de la marine à voile,1856, in van Beylen, Zeilvaart lexicon, 1985 and also in Harland, Myers, Seamanship in the Age of Sail, 1984. Below just an extract from Harland: The problem is 'only' that in the paintings the furled sails do not use these chambrières / slaglijnen at all.
-
Or should we hold a competition with prizes for solving that elusive stay coils puzzle? It often works... Wanted Double Coil Solution! Dead or Alive
-
@kirill4 Kirill, many thanks for the clarification, but it's still not enough. We need to establish the purpose of these coils in the first place. Then maybe the way they were formed will become clear. Always on the main- and forestay only, always in pairs, and always very close to the fighting tops. ???
-
Yes, and it is not just a question of stability or more generally of the ship's seaworthiness. Classic oar-powered galleys need to be proportionally very long with the smallest possible hull cross-section and at the same time of extremely lightweight construction (like today's Oxford-Cambridge racing boats, for example) in order to be effective. But in choppy waters such a structure would be torn apart in the blink of an eye. Not to mention that it is probably impossible to row effectively using dozens of long and heavy oars unisono in such less than ideal conditions. Apart from the technical considerations, I was most impressed by the descriptions of naval campaigns from the Punic Wars. When caught by the heavy seas, entire fleets with many thousands of lives aboard went bottom at a stroke, often reversing the strategic situation of the parties involved by 180 degrees. Yet, navigare necesse est, vivere non est necesse.
-
I too seem to be getting headaches from these mysterious coils already. As for the actual number of rudder ropes, normally one, but that's definitely for a slightly later period. As on many drawings by van de Velde's or on the famous Hohenzollern model of 1660–1670 (shown in the two black and white photos below). But... The Vasa has two holes in her rudder evidently for this purpose, and not just one. So Landström's interpretation showing two ropes instead of only one seems reasonable too. I have included also his illustration with this feature below.
-
But perhaps we worry about it too much unnecessarily? For most of the year, the Mediterranean is as flat as a ping-pong table. Only in winter was sailing refrained from in ancient times due to frequent storms. And that's how ships were designed, just for good weather. But if they were caught by surprise by an unexpected storm, whole fleets of hundreds of ships would go down straight away... This is why the classic galleys performed so well in Mediterranean conditions, and at the same time so inadequately in the usually wavey northern waters.
-
Indeed. The requirements in this particular case are so contradictory that, in order to verify the correctness of the reconstruction, I would probably require at least basic hydrostatic calculations on a mandatory basis. On the other hand, it is just modelling largely for fun...
-
When it comes to the stability and performance of historic (mainly rowing) vessels of modest size, this item is probably worth at least browsing through. For modelling purposes it may be an overkill as a whole, but perhaps some data in this work will prove useful in your project. It all depends how much formalistic approach one wish to take. Bo Ejstrud (ed.), Seven Boats. Assessing the performance of ancient boats, 2012: Ejstrud Bo - Seven Boats. Assessing the performance of ancient boats - 2012.pdf
-
And then there is Björn Landström's interpretation from his somewhat outdated but still excellent book The Royal Warship Vasa. The rudder preventer ropes go to the tiller hole. This interpretation may actually be correct, as dedicated apertures for this purpose were not found in the stern of the ship (or they were not yet done before the catastrophe?). And there are other valuable books on the Vasa that I forgot to photograph the first time around.
-
@scrubbyj427 Take a look at the page 281. @72Nova Michael, it is now immediately apparent that the prototype of your model was made using the shell method (à la hollandaise) rather than the skeleton method. Thanks. The other insignificant anachronisms found in probably every reconstruction pale in comparison to this important "detail". And nice, convincing execution. 🙂 And Kirill is also vigilant – about rigging. Most practical, of course, are the graphics. Below are a few. Of note are the fixing, or rather entering points of the rudder preventer ropes – close to the tiller holes. And those two small outer circular apertures are sometimes used for boats towing, and sometimes for mooring ropes (on other ships' portraits). All drawings by van de Velde.
-
@scrubbyj427 This is the hefty book shown by Peter in his post #50, now only available as second-hand I think. It is extremely archaeological. Apart from that, there are a great many other works on Vasa of varying value; I show some of them in the photo below. What is missing here are some small, subject-specific monographs produced by the museum. @Hubac's Historian Marc, it would probably be more convincing if it weren't for the fact that you've been building your model for many years now caring about the smallest metaphorical nail in the process 🙂. But my apologies for not noticing this earlier 🙂.
-
@72Nova Michael. You will probably hate me, as I have some potentially almost apocalyptic news for you. I can see that you want the model to be as realistic as possible, so the lowest three planks must go all the way to the sternpost end, as in the diagram below (taken from the Vasa monograph). This can be considered a must for a ship built using the shell method. Sorry. @kirill4 Kiryl, for you I have the task of solving the puzzle of the coils you show in post #159. If you don't solve it within a few days, I will have to use the classic mouse-on-stay solution in my reconstruction of the ship contemporary to Vasa 🙂. Besides many paintings, these coils were simulated in the so-called Peller-model 1603 as in the diagram below, but after all, a rope several centimetres thick cannot be tied in such a tight way as in this diagram...
-
A complete anchor set for the ship. According to the 1629 inventory, there should be „four heavy anchors” (vier schwere Ancker) and „one kedge anchor” (ein Wurff Ancker). For some ships, grapnels (Draggen) are also listed as boat equipment. These were also useful in boarding fight. All six anchors are of different sizes.
-
For even greater clarity, it should probably be made very clear that these are examples from a later period of artillery development and refer to converting smoothbore heavy guns into rifled cannons, as there is some risk that those less versed in the subject will start to get even more confused and, as a result, may be more easily fooled by some sellers' tales along the lines of 'an authentic (albeit both smoothbore and steel-sleeved) cannon from a shipwreck ca. 1780'. Let's hope not... Also, for the convenience of readers: SBML - smoothbore muzzle loader RML - rifled muzzle loader RBL - rifled breech loader And below, as a curiosity for those interested, a visual sample of one of the first 'modern' rifled cannons, which I have found in Lübeck (Germany). Although accurate measurements were immediately taken, they are still awaiting detailed drawing documentation. For the time being, I consider them converted French smoothbore muzzle-loading 18-pdr guns captured in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871. Overall view (note in particular reinforcing outer sleeve applied to the rear of the barrel and bushings applied to the trunnions): 3-grooved rifling (marked on the muzzle face with numbers '1', '2' and '3'):
-
True, the markings were normally placed on top of the barrel or on the trunnions' ends. Apart from all these doubts (lack of markings, steel sleeve inside the cast-iron barrel, too good overall condition), the calibre of this rather reenactment gun seems too large and should also be measured/verified. Below a handful of authentic samples for comparison. Somewhat ironically, some of them also sports the above anomalies, but only individually, and not all at once. And never steel sleeve inside as in modern reenactment shooting replicas. No markings found on the below 6-pdr guns, but these can be hidden under many layers of thick paint (carriages are modern reproductions): Two British swivel guns intended for the civilian market. One of them has been originally up-bored from 1/2 lb calibre to 1 lb calibre (to serve possibly as a signal gun without shot?). Both with a letter „P” cut on the first reinforce beside weight markings:
-
Steel sleeves inside the barrel are standard, and even mandatory, on today's replicas designed for shooting. There should also be some markings on authentic guns produced even by private companies for the civilian market, as on this gunnade below, found in one of the museums. Overall view: Weight markings on top of the first reinforce: Manufacturer's and poundage markings underneath the breech: My exhibition board made for the owner of this cannon:
Our Emblem ®
