Waldemar

Following the example of Mr Endsor, I too will summarise my findings to date on this matter. Please consider these as my views only, with no intention of pushing them on anyone by „force”. * * * Floor sweeps of variable radii must have been known and used before 1765, otherwise Mungo Murray in the 1750s could not have known about them. The question is just how long before, and the drawing of London 1656 is evidence that as early as the mid-17th century. * * * The London 1656 body plan is by no means a copy of some other, e.g. builder's plans, as body plans on paper were not yet made at that time (not until around the turn of the 17th century). They were content to draw side and top projections only, and the outlines of the frames were only traced on the mould loft, as is described in all English works on shipbuilding up to and including Bushnell 1664. Even Deane 1670 suggests a similar procedure, consistently applying in the text the formula of 'bend of timbers' co-ordinates taken from the drawing. In other words, ship design was still only partly graphic at the time, and historians may wish to revise their previous views, until they find at least one piece of evidence from the period that it was otherwise. In conclusion, the body plan of the London 1656 is genuine piece of work which mimics the process that took place on the mould loft in the shipyard. It can render the shapes of the ship itself or just be the effect of a design method known to the creator of the drawing. Thank you

@DonatasBruzas Donatas, we have already considered this model together with Martes in private correspondence. But as you pointed out, its lines made in the 1930s are too uncertain for analysis. Upon receipt of more reliable 3D scans, I would immediately start trying to reconstruct its design concept, as I did for London 1656 and other ships or their extant images. As it turns out, so little known so far or even completely misunderstood despite their capital historical value. But even in this research activity, competition is not welcome. As you can see, such attempts are associated with a certain risk, because the new discoveries made in the course challenge stereotypes, orthodox views and previous findings of scholars. As a result, they are even met with hostility, personal interventions and at best indifference. Poor payment for the effort and free show. Perhaps a change in the way these attempts are made available to interested parties would be a good solution, as I have already been advised.

Dear Mr Endsor, You are the last person I would want to have a difference of opinion with, but since we already have the circumstances we have, first I have to say what you are unlikely to like, and I certainly do not like: 1. suggesting that I could not recognise nor admit the floor sweeps of Bellona are all the same radii was not elegant. That is not the point and you are well aware of it, 2. to suggest that Lavery's book was already out of date when it was so convenient, but to later opportunistically cite his supposedly invalidated findings is an inconsistency that is difficult to pass over, 3. you have coined the meaning "surely only one possibility" from the word "usually", which is an obvious semantic inconsistency, 4. you imply that I am putting a total equal sign between practices from different regions, which is not true and I have never written even something similar, 5. finally, you rather arbitrarily state that I have been misled, although it is not clear how. You really did not have to resort to these eristic tricks, because I am prepared to concede something that you happen to like, if it is of course relevant to you: 1. I certainly make a distinction between the preserved plans and the actual shape of the real ship, moreover, for various reasons I think they surely differed, 2. there is no guarantee that the preserved plans even attempted to reproduce the hull shape of the real ship fairly faithfully, despite that the transverse proportions are correct, 3. at this point I believe that the use of variable radii was the exception rather than the rule, however, it was known and sometimes used even in the 17th century, as this very drawing proves, 4. taking all this into account, personally I would have done a reconstruction of the London 1656 based on these plans, that is, with floor sweeps of variable radii for the front half, if only for formal reasons. But this at the same time does not mean that I reject the other, incomparably more common method, i.e. with fixed radii. I sincerely hope, that such conclusion would make you happy too.

@Richard Endsor Dear Mr Endsor, Thank you for your new entry. Let me start by answering the question why to reproduce the shape of the ship's design lines. The most important reason is that I am curious about what ship design might have looked like in practice then. There are, however, some other reasons already explained above as well (I point out in passing, as it were, that what I show should often be perceived as a process flow rather than the final result). You rightly advise using the period sources directly in the first instance. Personally, I consider this alleged plan of London 1656 authentic, as it has all the visual characteristics of the 17th century document and the context of its origin is also not in doubt. And so it will be until the results of laboratory analysis of the paper or ink contradict it. Therefore, my approach is not to date an already dated document on the basis of today's knowledge of ancient shipbuilding, but, on the contrary, to deepen today's knowledge of ancient shipbuilding on the basis of this very document. * * * As to the variable radius floor sweeps, you expected me to measure the drawing on page 19 of Brian Lavery's book (which I had already done anyway), but after all it is not about this particular plan, but about the text, the diagrams, and in particular the reproduction of another plan on page 24, for some reason overlooked. You also demanded, and I complied, to check „all the other contemporary plans” in terms of this issue. There are plenty of them featuring variable radius floor sweeps, if only on the RMG website, and after finding about two dozen I stopped looking further. Below is just one of those, from 1771, chosen as both the frames themselves and the centres of the floor arcs are clearly marked with letters, so there is no question of any confusion as to the value of particular radii. * * * You also advocate to avoid non-English sources for the analysis of English shipbuilding practices. This is, in my opinion, unnecessary and even harmful self-limitation. I've already experienced quite emphatically that without knowledge, and sometimes application, of these „external” sources, a full understanding of English practices and the dynamics of their development is simply impossible. This also applies to the various types of geometrical devices employed to shape the hulls' design lines. It is improbable that even the simplest of these methods were not known and used in just one part of Europe, especially as it was at the forefront of naval architecture at the time. * * * To be sure, I'll also add that I don't artificially "bend" the lines when I try to match them to the original contours to prove something to someone, because I primarily perform this process to satisfy my curiosity and only share the results. In the event of deviations, I always indicate this together with the reasons.

How important l'ancienneté of officers (i.e. the year they entered service or received their rank) must have been at the time, if the lion's share of fleet records was devoted to it...

I can read it, I used to learn Russian... 😜

I also found this one on the Russian Academy of Sciences library website. And it is again such a unique album that it probably also deserves a separate thread.

Martes, this is just another gem! You should definitely move it to a separate thread with an appropriate title so that it is more visible and searchable. What do you think?

Perhaps you are in a position to change that...? At least for documents on maritime matters.

Eugen, please accept my sincerest apologies. But maybe there are some other relevant documents? I promise I would not interfere anymore... 🙂

@Richard Endsor Mr. Endsor, first of all I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your excellent books and, from my point of view, especially the outstanding chapters on ship design and building methods in your book 'The Master Shipwright's Secrets. How Charles II built the Restoration Navy'. Even more so, as these aspects are very rarely addressed in such a detailed and clear way. I would also like to clarify that the purpose of this exercise is precisely to try to identify the original way in which this drawing of London 1656 was made, as you splendidly did with John Shish's Treatise, and that the 3D model is actually just a by-product. Anyway, this drawing of London is so badly deformed in so many different ways that simply retracing the frames outlines would miss the point, whatever the purpose. Besides, despite the difficulties, there is still a chance to determine such obscure features of the ship as e.g. the rake and radius of the stem post, and only the analysis of the original drawing method can help here. * * * You state quite emphatically that the floor sweeps could not have been of variable radius for almost the entire length of the days of sail, as they would have required separate templates for each frame. However, variable radius floor sweeps are covered in a quite detailed way in 'The Ship of the Line. Volume II: Design, Construction and Fittings' by Brian Lavery, with both references and examples. I will not quote this material here as it is too extensive, just add that William Sutherland 1711 uses variable radius hollowing curves, and the reconstructed lines of the Restoration yacht of Charles II, on the basis on its 3D scans, also have variable radius hollowing curves (besides other frame sweeps of variable radii), which of course required separate templates for each frame (or at most a group of just a few frames). Frames shaped or even just corrected by design waterlines or diagonals (practice starting presumably in the decades around 1700), also actually required separate templates for each frame in order to accurately transfer their designed shape to the timbers. Otherwise, the effects of this correction process would have been lost. However, the most important argument in this particular case is probably the drawing of London 1656 itself. The floor sweeps radii are gradually increasing in a quite noticeable way, and that reading I am absolutely sure of (as opposed to a few other things), and only my reconstruction of how they were actually drawn by the creator of the plan may be considered a modern interpretation here. For confirmation, I've also attached a diagram below, where it can be seen that the 10 feet (fixed) radius arc clearly doesn't match up with the original line drawn. This is also the case with all other floor sweeps in the forward half of the hull, except that of the master frame, of course. On the other hand, in the somewhat easier to shape smoothly aft half the hull, the floor sweeps are already of expected, fixed radius. * * * Finally, I would add that in the quite possible case of the reconstruction of the hull lines of London 1656 (as opposed to this attempt at the reconstruction of the drawing method of her supposed plan), I would certainly not leave the smoothing/fairing the hull surface to the automatic mechanisms of the computer software, but I would rather manually correct the longitudinal construction guides (i.e. both lines of the floor and the breadth), conforming to the known contemporary methods, and also apply appropriate hollowing curves in order to obtain the best possible with this design method shape, or at the least – acceptable. Just as an experienced shipwright of the era would have probably done. To conclude this point, the suggestion to simply retrace somewhat spoiled original contours and spoil them up even more haphazardly using today's CAD software does not seem particularly attractive to me, as it is more akin to carpentry than real shipwrightry in its design aspect. Regardless of everything, even a possible difference of opinion on certain issues, once again thank you very much for your interest in this thread and of course I invite you to post again. You are always welcome. Waldemar

After all, it's higher society and official documents! But it's probably like today: only lawyers speak in the language of legal acts, and even then in more formal circumstances. When Eugen (@greenstone) showed these wonderful Dimensions of Ships on the forum and at the same time pointed out the source of this document (the library), all to be done was to follow up and look through all the digitised documents of the period there...

Yep, a perfect circle with a radius of about 3/4 of the ship's breadth and a very short beakhead deck, as can be also seen on all the period models and drawings. This is why the lettered frames on London 1656 should be moved at least one station forward, disregarding altogether their Y co-ordinates on the stempost in the original drawing.

... and two more pages with some content, somewhat incomprehensible without a closer scrutiny.

Библиотека Российской академии наук (БАН) (rasl.ru) Most, if not all of them, have a character of standing orders for the fleet (duties, procedures, food allowances, wages etc.).

Some lacking scans from this manuscript:

Truly. It was only later that I also found this date on the first page of The Contractio of A 4th Rate built by Mr Taylor: This Indenture Made the 14th day of February In the Year of our Lord on Thou land six hundred Ninety Five. There is fantastic information here if only for the reconstruction of London 1656 that we have been looking at recently. Such as timber&room value, sweep and rake of the stempost, how floor lines were drawn, etc.

Or: „Another way for drawing or building as was practised by Sir Phineas Pett”.

Yet another passage dating one of the tables: „A Table of Timbers Whose Scantlings are thought fit to be Ascertained In the Building of the 30 Ships Built by Act of Parliament [...]”

After a first, quick look through: this is a unique, extremely valuable document. Firstly, these are records from the 1670s (I spotted two dates: 1675 and 1677). Where did the date 1695 come from? And secondly, in addition to the scantlings, it contains very detailed information about the ships' design concepts, or to put it another way, the geometry (shape) of the hull. This is simply a fantastic document of unparalleled value!!!

Many thanks Eugen! Have you posted a whole document?

Below is a variant of the London 1656 hull lines probably more realistic, and the fruit of a very useful dialogue with @Martes in private. There have been some fairly major changes done, which more attentive eyes will no doubt notice: – timber&room value has been reduced from 36 to 30 inches, which is more consistent with contemporary contracts and specifications ( @allanyed hit the nail on the head with his calculations above), – the stempost radius has been reduced from 40 to 30 feet (which is more in line with other period material, although not already quite with the original London 1656 plan itself), – hollowing curves of a more advanced shape were applied than those drawn on the original plan, which also improved the hull shape, – some additional light fairing of the hull surface has also been carried out. I have also added some diagonals to better illustrate the shape of the hull.

A quick 3D model was still created at Martes' request. I made a few minor adjustments to it: upper part of the stempost is shaped a little more upright, and the aft run at the very bottom of the hull is made sharper, which I think the maker of the plans had rather forgotten or refrained from drawing. Overall, it appears that all hollowing curves have been drawn in a somewhat simplified manner. Unlike the use of wooden templates in the yard, they are quite cumbersome to draw on a paper plan and the designers have been taking some drafting shortcuts (see, for example, Sutherland 1711, The Ship-builders Assistant). Hence the probably slightly less than ideal hull lines on the original plan. While doing a full reconstruction of the ship, I would probably still straighten the bow wings quite a bit, as suggested by van de Velde's drawings.

Due to the apparent and quite significant drawing inconsistencies in the aft body plan, it was felt that an alternative solution should be prepared. Paradoxically, although this alternative gives a slightly inferior rendering of the original lines, it is the one that is rather more likely. In the first place, the shape of the line of the breadth is now more in keeping with known English practices of the period. As a result of this change, the two toptimber curves have become arcs of variable radius. Below, in addition, an updated diagram showing the ship's longitudinal lines as they finally develop from both body plans.

Oh, no...! Martes. That's my love! 🙂 And she could be so very useful in a more comprehensive reconstruction of London 1656. Also, it would be great to do a reverse-engineering of her lines based on the 3D hull scans of this very important model, just like here for London 1656, i.e. in terms of the design methods used. We just happen to have an information gap for this particular period, and it turns out there was so much going on....