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Jaager

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  1. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Bob Cleek in Offset for Hull Thickness   
    I can't get anyone else to eat the mushrooms or drink the Kool-Aid, but the Station Sandwich Method can be a fairly rapid way to construct a hull.  In this instance the troublesome factors are not a part of it. 
    That would be worrying about the spaces - there are none 
    and
    making the individual timbers match the lengths of the prototype vessel - all that is needed is for the grain to be as straight as practical in each segment
    and
    making the moulded dimension match the original and the inside be faired - fatter is better since the alignment can be here and rough does not matter.  It might need some attention if a motor and radio equipment would live there.
     
    The method that I am suggesting does not need a building board or alignment jigs.  The pieces internally align themselves.
    The size of bread and butter or buttock layers makes for more hand chisel and hand power sanding.
    A body station section of layers is small enough to take the work to a belt or drum sander. 
     
    I was guessing that the OP was interested in multiple copies or providing a data file that would direct a laser cutter for customers.  Both of the other solid/hollow hull methods use stock that is too large for a laser cutter.  If a laser can cut 1/8" Pine, then each frame would be - what?  16 feet in scale?   It would be about 50 layers for a 850 foot hull?  With straight timber segments,  fairly efficient use of a board could be laid out.  I suspect that the laser could "paint" the sand-to lines and alignment hole drill points directly on a board. 
  2. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Offset for Hull Thickness   
    I can't get anyone else to eat the mushrooms or drink the Kool-Aid, but the Station Sandwich Method can be a fairly rapid way to construct a hull.  In this instance the troublesome factors are not a part of it. 
    That would be worrying about the spaces - there are none 
    and
    making the individual timbers match the lengths of the prototype vessel - all that is needed is for the grain to be as straight as practical in each segment
    and
    making the moulded dimension match the original and the inside be faired - fatter is better since the alignment can be here and rough does not matter.  It might need some attention if a motor and radio equipment would live there.
     
    The method that I am suggesting does not need a building board or alignment jigs.  The pieces internally align themselves.
    The size of bread and butter or buttock layers makes for more hand chisel and hand power sanding.
    A body station section of layers is small enough to take the work to a belt or drum sander. 
     
    I was guessing that the OP was interested in multiple copies or providing a data file that would direct a laser cutter for customers.  Both of the other solid/hollow hull methods use stock that is too large for a laser cutter.  If a laser can cut 1/8" Pine, then each frame would be - what?  16 feet in scale?   It would be about 50 layers for a 850 foot hull?  With straight timber segments,  fairly efficient use of a board could be laid out.  I suspect that the laser could "paint" the sand-to lines and alignment hole drill points directly on a board. 
  3. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Offset for Hull Thickness   
    Perhaps you should back things up a step or two.
    Although I admit to seeing POB as being too hideous to be used for much of anything,  in this situation I think the problems with it transcends my obvious prejudice.
    It does not fit will with iron or steel construction.
    A scale of 1:192 is beyond the capabilities of the technique.
    Trying to fight Nature by over scaling the materials to try to force strength where it does not reasonably fit is why you are proposing an under size for mold surface area and overly thick shell material.
     
    A POB wooden hull has a longitudinal shell (planking) that spans multiple molds.  The shell members butt on alternating and widely spaced molds.   You may have to use planking strakes to pull off what you propose. The problem is that your hull is 4-8 times longer that most wooden hulls. 
    If the molds are close enough together, a single layer of planking should suffice. 
    The length of the hull will have it wanting to bow and break.
     
     
     
    The stress will probably require a total planking layer that is inappropriately thick.
    That it is planking will make it difficult to get the flat planes that are desired.
    The old wooden hull guys probably would have wanted to have a longer hull.  The physical properties of wood limited their possibilities. 
     
    There is no answer in the back of the book for your question.  If you are determined to continue on your proposed path, the likely answer is that you will have to do the experiment yourself.  If you can find find a practical combination of spine thickness, mold thickness, shell thickness, then you can tell us
     
    The real answer is to build a solid hull. A hull that is exactly the finished dimension and use as thin a material as can be had to cover it.
     
     
    @Roger Pellett  both of our methods fail the Navy standards according to what @Bob Cleek presented.  Your two half hulls makes it easier to manage, but the Navy does not like the midline seam.  My method is beyond their imagination - probably because it is WWII era and PVA had not been developed.   The species of Mahogany that they want has been loved to death and is no longer available.   Boo - on the Basswood.
  4. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Offset for Hull Thickness   
    In which case, a straight forward hull construction would be to use a version of POF for the smooth hull.
    The hull would look like a loaf of sliced bread, upside down and hollowed out.
    It can be as hollow as you wish.  It is easier if the moulded dimension is thick enough for dowels (bamboo skewers) to be used for alignment.  Clear Pine that is maximum thickness for a laser for the "frames".  The frames are more economical if they are three 'timbers" alternating with five "timbers".  No spaces.  The "frames"  first assembled as station sections.  The sections shaped and then joined.
    Clamps and beams added later for the deck.
     
    If Titebond III  and the plating bonded and coated to be waterproof, nothing major extra would be needed for an R/C version.
  5. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Offset for Hull Thickness   
    Your subject is steel navy?
    The lines are the outside dimensions?
    The hull would be steel plates, not wooden planks. A double layer of strakes of wood = not an authentic look.
    If there are enough molds, one layer should be enough.  The plating can be 3x5 cards. A primer that soaks in and sets up hard = stiff enough to resemble steel?
    In this case, the thickness may be adding so little that the outside lines can be used as is.
    The actual ship plans should provide plate diameters. A riveted or welded seam would have a support behind it.
    The thickness of the molds = how thick will your laser penetrate and not leave a wedge behind?
     
    In the situation of a double layer of wooden planking and starting with outside lines, Once you decide on how thick you want each layer to be, the sum of the two is how much is subtracted.
    If it is a kit that you manufacture, the species for each layer, the thickness that you can obtain, and be sure will be available for as long as the kit is being manufactured - the price -  your choice.
    If it is just plans, and a builder must source materials,  the thickness is determined by what can be easily obtained.
     
    A wooden sail vessel at 1:192,  This is miniature scale.  I would question POB being at all practical.
  6. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Bob Cleek in Offset for Hull Thickness   
    Your subject is steel navy?
    The lines are the outside dimensions?
    The hull would be steel plates, not wooden planks. A double layer of strakes of wood = not an authentic look.
    If there are enough molds, one layer should be enough.  The plating can be 3x5 cards. A primer that soaks in and sets up hard = stiff enough to resemble steel?
    In this case, the thickness may be adding so little that the outside lines can be used as is.
    The actual ship plans should provide plate diameters. A riveted or welded seam would have a support behind it.
    The thickness of the molds = how thick will your laser penetrate and not leave a wedge behind?
     
    In the situation of a double layer of wooden planking and starting with outside lines, Once you decide on how thick you want each layer to be, the sum of the two is how much is subtracted.
    If it is a kit that you manufacture, the species for each layer, the thickness that you can obtain, and be sure will be available for as long as the kit is being manufactured - the price -  your choice.
    If it is just plans, and a builder must source materials,  the thickness is determined by what can be easily obtained.
     
    A wooden sail vessel at 1:192,  This is miniature scale.  I would question POB being at all practical.
  7. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from dafi in Sovereign of the Seas: square tuck or round tuck?   
    I checked my library.
    I lost what little Deutsch I had,  but none of the illustrations in Hendrik Busmann appear to address the stern at the water line.  Tafel II is a 27"x8" color foldout Peter Pett print.
     
    There is something in James Sephton.  It is in an authoritative voice,  but he does not footnote that I can see, so I do not know his source.

  8. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Alan Cabrera in First carving attempt by Joop   
    Too late, but a stress free and precise way to drill the holes:
    For small subjects, temp bond the piece to a base, mark/start the holes with a very sharp awl
    and drill the holes with a drill press.
    It avoids the twitch problem with free hand drilling as well as doing the hole perpendicular.
    I find that the bits want to dance on the surface, and the awl produced pit avoids that.
  9. Like
    Jaager reacted to druxey in Sovereign of the Seas: square tuck or round tuck?   
    Late to the fray, another consideration: If a square tuck, the fashion piece needs to join the sternpost at about waterline level in order for the rudder to act effectively. Look at the Lely painting again:
     

    If that were a square tuck the lower end is well submerged and rudder action would be severely affected. That image, together with the Boston one, lead to the inevitable conclusion that she had a round tuck or just possibly a transitional one. It cannot have been a square one. I rest my case, gentlemen!
  10. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from DaveBaxt in Cutting out gun ports   
    An aspect of gunports that seems to be often missed:
    The sides of the ports are parallel to the frames, not perpendicular to the LWL.
    The sills and lintels are parallel to the deck at the port location.  In the middle there is little or no difference port to port.  At the ends, each port is individual in shape.
    The ports are parallelograms with vertical sides.  A stick used as a gauge for every port on a particular deck produces an inauthentic result.
    The gun truck or skid sits on the deck.  The barrel tracks parallel to the deck.
  11. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from DaveBaxt in Cutting out gun ports   
    Theory here:
     
    It is difficult to get an acceptable finish on a gunport by cutting it and finishing the sides of the cut.
    It may be a successful procedure to make the opening oversize and inserting a frame of a sill and lintel and having a veneer layer where the frame timbers would be.
    If you are set on all rectangular openings, the same jig can be used for every port on a particular deck to glue up the framing.  It is then a matter of shimming each frame.  If the frames are mounted before placing the outside planking, .....
     
  12. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Is it worth it to make your own deadeyes   
    You may wish to explore what is realistic as far as what is the compensation for a ship model built from a kit.
    The impression that I get is that they sell for about what is retail for the original kit.
    It is possibly different for a scratch built model of a unique subject built by someone with an existing reputation as an artist,
    Even then, based on a dollars per hour,  it is unlikely to match what a skilled senior professional in the trades would receive.  
    For a kit, red state minimum wage is probably a dream.
  13. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Boccherini in Is it worth it to make your own deadeyes   
    You may wish to explore what is realistic as far as what is the compensation for a ship model built from a kit.
    The impression that I get is that they sell for about what is retail for the original kit.
    It is possibly different for a scratch built model of a unique subject built by someone with an existing reputation as an artist,
    Even then, based on a dollars per hour,  it is unlikely to match what a skilled senior professional in the trades would receive.  
    For a kit, red state minimum wage is probably a dream.
  14. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from flying_dutchman2 in Is it worth it to make your own deadeyes   
    You may wish to explore what is realistic as far as what is the compensation for a ship model built from a kit.
    The impression that I get is that they sell for about what is retail for the original kit.
    It is possibly different for a scratch built model of a unique subject built by someone with an existing reputation as an artist,
    Even then, based on a dollars per hour,  it is unlikely to match what a skilled senior professional in the trades would receive.  
    For a kit, red state minimum wage is probably a dream.
  15. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Cutting out gun ports   
    Theory here:
     
    It is difficult to get an acceptable finish on a gunport by cutting it and finishing the sides of the cut.
    It may be a successful procedure to make the opening oversize and inserting a frame of a sill and lintel and having a veneer layer where the frame timbers would be.
    If you are set on all rectangular openings, the same jig can be used for every port on a particular deck to glue up the framing.  It is then a matter of shimming each frame.  If the frames are mounted before placing the outside planking, .....
     
  16. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Keith Black in Is it worth it to make your own deadeyes   
    You may wish to explore what is realistic as far as what is the compensation for a ship model built from a kit.
    The impression that I get is that they sell for about what is retail for the original kit.
    It is possibly different for a scratch built model of a unique subject built by someone with an existing reputation as an artist,
    Even then, based on a dollars per hour,  it is unlikely to match what a skilled senior professional in the trades would receive.  
    For a kit, red state minimum wage is probably a dream.
  17. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from jud in Cutting out gun ports   
    Theory here:
     
    It is difficult to get an acceptable finish on a gunport by cutting it and finishing the sides of the cut.
    It may be a successful procedure to make the opening oversize and inserting a frame of a sill and lintel and having a veneer layer where the frame timbers would be.
    If you are set on all rectangular openings, the same jig can be used for every port on a particular deck to glue up the framing.  It is then a matter of shimming each frame.  If the frames are mounted before placing the outside planking, .....
     
  18. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from No Idea in Cutting out gun ports   
    An aspect of gunports that seems to be often missed:
    The sides of the ports are parallel to the frames, not perpendicular to the LWL.
    The sills and lintels are parallel to the deck at the port location.  In the middle there is little or no difference port to port.  At the ends, each port is individual in shape.
    The ports are parallelograms with vertical sides.  A stick used as a gauge for every port on a particular deck produces an inauthentic result.
    The gun truck or skid sits on the deck.  The barrel tracks parallel to the deck.
  19. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Keith Black in Cutting out gun ports   
    An aspect of gunports that seems to be often missed:
    The sides of the ports are parallel to the frames, not perpendicular to the LWL.
    The sills and lintels are parallel to the deck at the port location.  In the middle there is little or no difference port to port.  At the ends, each port is individual in shape.
    The ports are parallelograms with vertical sides.  A stick used as a gauge for every port on a particular deck produces an inauthentic result.
    The gun truck or skid sits on the deck.  The barrel tracks parallel to the deck.
  20. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Cutting out gun ports   
    An aspect of gunports that seems to be often missed:
    The sides of the ports are parallel to the frames, not perpendicular to the LWL.
    The sills and lintels are parallel to the deck at the port location.  In the middle there is little or no difference port to port.  At the ends, each port is individual in shape.
    The ports are parallelograms with vertical sides.  A stick used as a gauge for every port on a particular deck produces an inauthentic result.
    The gun truck or skid sits on the deck.  The barrel tracks parallel to the deck.
  21. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from thibaultron in Cutting out gun ports   
    An aspect of gunports that seems to be often missed:
    The sides of the ports are parallel to the frames, not perpendicular to the LWL.
    The sills and lintels are parallel to the deck at the port location.  In the middle there is little or no difference port to port.  At the ends, each port is individual in shape.
    The ports are parallelograms with vertical sides.  A stick used as a gauge for every port on a particular deck produces an inauthentic result.
    The gun truck or skid sits on the deck.  The barrel tracks parallel to the deck.
  22. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from bruce d in Cutting out gun ports   
    An aspect of gunports that seems to be often missed:
    The sides of the ports are parallel to the frames, not perpendicular to the LWL.
    The sills and lintels are parallel to the deck at the port location.  In the middle there is little or no difference port to port.  At the ends, each port is individual in shape.
    The ports are parallelograms with vertical sides.  A stick used as a gauge for every port on a particular deck produces an inauthentic result.
    The gun truck or skid sits on the deck.  The barrel tracks parallel to the deck.
  23. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from robert952 in Cutting out gun ports   
    An aspect of gunports that seems to be often missed:
    The sides of the ports are parallel to the frames, not perpendicular to the LWL.
    The sills and lintels are parallel to the deck at the port location.  In the middle there is little or no difference port to port.  At the ends, each port is individual in shape.
    The ports are parallelograms with vertical sides.  A stick used as a gauge for every port on a particular deck produces an inauthentic result.
    The gun truck or skid sits on the deck.  The barrel tracks parallel to the deck.
  24. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from jud in Cutting out gun ports   
    An aspect of gunports that seems to be often missed:
    The sides of the ports are parallel to the frames, not perpendicular to the LWL.
    The sills and lintels are parallel to the deck at the port location.  In the middle there is little or no difference port to port.  At the ends, each port is individual in shape.
    The ports are parallelograms with vertical sides.  A stick used as a gauge for every port on a particular deck produces an inauthentic result.
    The gun truck or skid sits on the deck.  The barrel tracks parallel to the deck.
  25. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Capella in Building my own budget lathe for wood model ship building - looking for tips and advice on my ideas   
    Dowels are made using a punch type cutter.  The grain is often not dead straight.  If the grain is at a slope or angle - over time the dowel may follow the curve of the grain.
    Using a froe on a straight grain board to split out straight grain sticks to turn into spars may save having a model with dog leg spars.
     
    I use a lot of 4" ratchet clamps.  I want squeeze out pressure.  The Irwin clamps that I have are poor at generating any sort of pressure.  The only ones that I found that work to my needs are the HF clamps with the big grey wing nut.
    The Widget Supply, MM, and small grey nut HF clamps have not done the job for me.
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