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Jaager got a reaction from EricWilliamMarshall in varnish coat for copper plates
You could try applying a coat or two of shellac now to protect against finger prints and when the model is complete, use EtOH to remove it and let our atmosphere get at it.
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Jaager got a reaction from Seventynet in wipe-on poly or other final wood treatment education request
I think it is in Underhill, that after planking the hull, he 'flooded the bilges with varnish'. I am fairly sure that at the time it was written, varnish was generally taken to be essentially "boiled" linseed oil in mineral spirits. It was probably a 'one off, seems like a good idea' choice. Not at all an experiment with controls. At the time, most of those writing how-to books were few in number, in isolation as far as consensus about what were optimal practices for stability over time. The closest to that I have seen to objective procedure are the USN museum standards for models that they would purchase. I am not sure that any finish will be 100% successful at preventing the hull wood from equilibration with the temperature, O2, and water vapor of its environment.
Clear coating a closed interior may or may not have any practical benefit. But one definite negative would be if you coat a place where a subsequent wood to wood bond would be. PVA bonds by intercalating its synthetic hyphae onto a microscopically rough surface and into micro pores that all wood has. Filling the pores and smoothing the surface with a clear finish, or sanding finer than 220 tends to defeat the bonding process.
Coming at this from a POF - with no windows cut into the hull - point of view - if you intend to shellac an interior space before it is closed - I recommend that any site where a PVA bond is yet to be have a masking material there before the shellac is applied. A really tedious and no fun at all sort of prep work and worse, clean up after. Then, if your OCD about this is intense enough: what to do about the sides and bottoms of the deck beams and the underside of the deck planking between the beams? It would take the skill of a fiber optic surgeon to get at it after assembly. If done prior, this adds significant time and work to assembly.
To be logical, worry about failing due to environmental forces demands another factor. Certainly if it is a properly precise wood to wood bond that was clamped with enough pressure to yield a close surface to surface distance. The polymer chain length should not too long, for a strong bond to form. This other factor is what I call a belt and suspenders bond. That is, the bond be both chemical and physical. The physical part is a dowel at every bond. The dowel, if visible, should have an in scale diameter. Pulling bamboo thru a draw plate - especially in the high #70's range is difficult and the yield is low. It is grad school level - 15% finish - rather than med school level - >95% - if you get in you will finish unless you work at failing.
The bottom line - for a PVA wood to wood bond - always have it raw wood to raw wood. If you use an agent that allows smooth surface to smooth surface adhesion ( epoxy (?) or CA ("the horror, the horror") ) the worry goes up stream. The weak point is the clear finish to wood bond. And no finish ever flakes off?
addendum: In the shower just now, I remembered another option:
For a clear coat for a part of the hull that will never been seen again - give a thought to brushing lacquer.
It is visibly thick, drys in 2 hours, has been around long enough to show that it lasts.
Too shiny to use where it can be seen. It is out of scale thick, also.
No spray version - small enough to spray is small enough to breathe - any mitigation will never be as good as never making it airborne to begin with.
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in One for the shelf
Totally apart from the kit fan base aspect, I will approach this from a curmudgeon-like view or a sober view:
Buying a backup kit in your place in this path:
Has two positives -
It helps assuage your present enthusiasm. Enthusiasm that is necessary to do this as a hobby. The effect has a very short half-life.
If inflation takes hold, it may save you money in the future. Especially if you do not otherwise put the money that you would spend on a kit, in an escrow account that keeps up with inflation - something that the system is geared to make difficult.
And negatives -
As you progress with your current model, your knowledge of this field should expand. Your interest and choice of subjects may progress beyond what you consider.
In general, the necessary enthusiasm and drive to do this tends to cycle. Most beginners probably do not continue beyond the first down cycle. A backup kit will not maintain enthusiasm. It will be money lost. Lucky it would be to recover 50% on Ebay.
You should probably setup a stealth escrow account for this and continue to in filter funds - if you are not a solo. The same sort of standard for any tools: If you do not need a tool now for a particular task, If you have to ask about it, If you do not have more money than sense, you should probably wait to buy it until the need is obvious.
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in wipe-on poly or other final wood treatment education request
I think it is in Underhill, that after planking the hull, he 'flooded the bilges with varnish'. I am fairly sure that at the time it was written, varnish was generally taken to be essentially "boiled" linseed oil in mineral spirits. It was probably a 'one off, seems like a good idea' choice. Not at all an experiment with controls. At the time, most of those writing how-to books were few in number, in isolation as far as consensus about what were optimal practices for stability over time. The closest to that I have seen to objective procedure are the USN museum standards for models that they would purchase. I am not sure that any finish will be 100% successful at preventing the hull wood from equilibration with the temperature, O2, and water vapor of its environment.
Clear coating a closed interior may or may not have any practical benefit. But one definite negative would be if you coat a place where a subsequent wood to wood bond would be. PVA bonds by intercalating its synthetic hyphae onto a microscopically rough surface and into micro pores that all wood has. Filling the pores and smoothing the surface with a clear finish, or sanding finer than 220 tends to defeat the bonding process.
Coming at this from a POF - with no windows cut into the hull - point of view - if you intend to shellac an interior space before it is closed - I recommend that any site where a PVA bond is yet to be have a masking material there before the shellac is applied. A really tedious and no fun at all sort of prep work and worse, clean up after. Then, if your OCD about this is intense enough: what to do about the sides and bottoms of the deck beams and the underside of the deck planking between the beams? It would take the skill of a fiber optic surgeon to get at it after assembly. If done prior, this adds significant time and work to assembly.
To be logical, worry about failing due to environmental forces demands another factor. Certainly if it is a properly precise wood to wood bond that was clamped with enough pressure to yield a close surface to surface distance. The polymer chain length should not too long, for a strong bond to form. This other factor is what I call a belt and suspenders bond. That is, the bond be both chemical and physical. The physical part is a dowel at every bond. The dowel, if visible, should have an in scale diameter. Pulling bamboo thru a draw plate - especially in the high #70's range is difficult and the yield is low. It is grad school level - 15% finish - rather than med school level - >95% - if you get in you will finish unless you work at failing.
The bottom line - for a PVA wood to wood bond - always have it raw wood to raw wood. If you use an agent that allows smooth surface to smooth surface adhesion ( epoxy (?) or CA ("the horror, the horror") ) the worry goes up stream. The weak point is the clear finish to wood bond. And no finish ever flakes off?
addendum: In the shower just now, I remembered another option:
For a clear coat for a part of the hull that will never been seen again - give a thought to brushing lacquer.
It is visibly thick, drys in 2 hours, has been around long enough to show that it lasts.
Too shiny to use where it can be seen. It is out of scale thick, also.
No spray version - small enough to spray is small enough to breathe - any mitigation will never be as good as never making it airborne to begin with.
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Jaager got a reaction from lmagna in One for the shelf
Totally apart from the kit fan base aspect, I will approach this from a curmudgeon-like view or a sober view:
Buying a backup kit in your place in this path:
Has two positives -
It helps assuage your present enthusiasm. Enthusiasm that is necessary to do this as a hobby. The effect has a very short half-life.
If inflation takes hold, it may save you money in the future. Especially if you do not otherwise put the money that you would spend on a kit, in an escrow account that keeps up with inflation - something that the system is geared to make difficult.
And negatives -
As you progress with your current model, your knowledge of this field should expand. Your interest and choice of subjects may progress beyond what you consider.
In general, the necessary enthusiasm and drive to do this tends to cycle. Most beginners probably do not continue beyond the first down cycle. A backup kit will not maintain enthusiasm. It will be money lost. Lucky it would be to recover 50% on Ebay.
You should probably setup a stealth escrow account for this and continue to in filter funds - if you are not a solo. The same sort of standard for any tools: If you do not need a tool now for a particular task, If you have to ask about it, If you do not have more money than sense, you should probably wait to buy it until the need is obvious.
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Jaager got a reaction from EricWilliamMarshall in A possible material for bottom copper?
I found this when exploring an email special at StewMac:
It comes in 2" 3/4" and 1/4" rolls
I also found this seam separation knife and have it in my "tool looking for a function" category"
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Jaager got a reaction from EricWilliamMarshall in How do I cut 0.3mm copper sheet for hull plating tiles?
The copper plates were not riveted. The copper nails were hammered near flush. They were all but invisible at a distance corresponding to a model viewing distance.
There were way more of them than a ponce wheel produces. Model versions of copper sheathing with a raised or embossed addition mostly tends to give a hull a bad case of small pox.
I am still thinking that 100% rag bond paper, paint with real copper, using PVA to attach may be an effective alternative, in which case, a guillotine type paper cutter would be a real help. It may even work to slice individual plates from a strip. The paper could be painted while still at the 8.5 x 11 stage.
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Drill Press
A hand drill or most any motor that connects to a standard hex shaft,
I wonder how the chuck that comes with it is attached? Perhaps a different chuck could replace it?
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Drill Press
I came across this on Ali Express. I am reasonably certain that this would be a source of endless frustration and trouble, but it is low cost:
Although this is a bit of drift from the topic at hand, months before, while scouting an XY table to possibly fix to my Foredom drill press attachment, I came across this device ( for a grinder tool) on Ali Express. Even if it is possible to mount a Foredom hand piece in way that is secure and reproducible in precision: as superficially cool as it looks, I cannot come up with a job that it would do that is relevant to ship model building. Am I missing something? Doing an inferior job at replicating a HF chop saw is about it.
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Jaager got a reaction from JeffT in Drill Press
A hand drill or most any motor that connects to a standard hex shaft,
I wonder how the chuck that comes with it is attached? Perhaps a different chuck could replace it?
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Drill Press
A hand drill or most any motor that connects to a standard hex shaft,
I wonder how the chuck that comes with it is attached? Perhaps a different chuck could replace it?
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Drill Press
I came across this on Ali Express. I am reasonably certain that this would be a source of endless frustration and trouble, but it is low cost:
Although this is a bit of drift from the topic at hand, months before, while scouting an XY table to possibly fix to my Foredom drill press attachment, I came across this device ( for a grinder tool) on Ali Express. Even if it is possible to mount a Foredom hand piece in way that is secure and reproducible in precision: as superficially cool as it looks, I cannot come up with a job that it would do that is relevant to ship model building. Am I missing something? Doing an inferior job at replicating a HF chop saw is about it.
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Jaager got a reaction from thibaultron in Schooner plank length
The ASA rules up to 1903 call for both deck planks and hull planks to be "the greatest length possible".
I suspect that by the turn of the 20th century, a significant portion of the old growth timber had been felled in eastern North America..
The mid 19th century US Navy wanted deck planks to be 40 feet long. The favored species was (I think) Yellow Pine. It is not a wood that is seen much today - maybe some is recycled - everything usable was harvested - it is a species that is rock hard, it liked to turn a nail - not at all a soft Softwood. I think that some has been replanted, but without consulting my Silviculture references, I suspect a species that hard and tall would be fairly slow growing. As desirable as it would be, I suspect that a southern tree farmer would have to plant Yellow Pine for his grandchildren or great grandchildren to harvest. I sort of doubt that Georgia Pacific would be up for doing it.
So I think it would come down to what was available, as to length. Your guess would be as good as mine, on what it would be. It was probably even more restricted in Northern and Western Europe. My shipyard will use planks 25-40 feet long. But for an individual ship, a single length, instead of random. If a particular strake would need a short piece at either end, the intent is to cheat and use a longer board instead of having a stub. It is important to follow the butt stagger rules. After seeing so much of the opposite here, the goal is to have the butts not so obvious to avoid the busy look. The deck is not supposed to be a star. My yard inspectors mentally register the words: tacky, boring, naive, distracting, inauthentic on viewing a job done like that. It is also to wonder about the logic behind having obvious and contrasting trunnels just at the butts and not also at every beam.? In any case, trunnels should not be a contrasting shade.
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Schooner plank length
The ASA rules up to 1903 call for both deck planks and hull planks to be "the greatest length possible".
I suspect that by the turn of the 20th century, a significant portion of the old growth timber had been felled in eastern North America..
The mid 19th century US Navy wanted deck planks to be 40 feet long. The favored species was (I think) Yellow Pine. It is not a wood that is seen much today - maybe some is recycled - everything usable was harvested - it is a species that is rock hard, it liked to turn a nail - not at all a soft Softwood. I think that some has been replanted, but without consulting my Silviculture references, I suspect a species that hard and tall would be fairly slow growing. As desirable as it would be, I suspect that a southern tree farmer would have to plant Yellow Pine for his grandchildren or great grandchildren to harvest. I sort of doubt that Georgia Pacific would be up for doing it.
So I think it would come down to what was available, as to length. Your guess would be as good as mine, on what it would be. It was probably even more restricted in Northern and Western Europe. My shipyard will use planks 25-40 feet long. But for an individual ship, a single length, instead of random. If a particular strake would need a short piece at either end, the intent is to cheat and use a longer board instead of having a stub. It is important to follow the butt stagger rules. After seeing so much of the opposite here, the goal is to have the butts not so obvious to avoid the busy look. The deck is not supposed to be a star. My yard inspectors mentally register the words: tacky, boring, naive, distracting, inauthentic on viewing a job done like that. It is also to wonder about the logic behind having obvious and contrasting trunnels just at the butts and not also at every beam.? In any case, trunnels should not be a contrasting shade.
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Collection of Greek ships
I have almost zero knowledge about this part of Greek history, but how well does this guess fit?
These ships were "surplus" warships supplied by western powers who were keen on causing as much mischief as possible to the Ottoman Empire? If this is the case, exact or a close approximation of the actual plans or similar ones can be had from West European and maybe North American archives?
The mismatch of guns would be predictable if my guess is correct.
At least the above vessels are the practical workhorses of their era, They could actually do a job. The liners of that time were a total waste of resources, over sized, and ugly. These vessels were sleek and lean and most were probably fast sailing.
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Drill Press
There is another option in the bench size drill press: There is a drill press mount for the Foredom flex shaft machines.
The accessory is far from flimsy.
The motor options are for: high speed/low torque, low speed/high torque, medium speed/high power/high torque.
The hand piece options allow for either chuck or collet models to fit the drill press unit.
The bearings are probably up to doing any wood milling and there seems to be slots to mount an XY table - but the excursion does not seem to be heroic.
This is far from an economical option, but it is sort of a one machine does a lot sort of choice for someone who has not already made serious investment in a power tool collection. As well as the drill and cutting tool function, and the fixed the drill press, there is a right angle grinder, plus router table, clamp in a vise and small belt sanding functions .
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Jaager got a reaction from EricWilliamMarshall in Drill Press
There is another option in the bench size drill press: There is a drill press mount for the Foredom flex shaft machines.
The accessory is far from flimsy.
The motor options are for: high speed/low torque, low speed/high torque, medium speed/high power/high torque.
The hand piece options allow for either chuck or collet models to fit the drill press unit.
The bearings are probably up to doing any wood milling and there seems to be slots to mount an XY table - but the excursion does not seem to be heroic.
This is far from an economical option, but it is sort of a one machine does a lot sort of choice for someone who has not already made serious investment in a power tool collection. As well as the drill and cutting tool function, and the fixed the drill press, there is a right angle grinder, plus router table, clamp in a vise and small belt sanding functions .
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Drill Press
There is another option in the bench size drill press: There is a drill press mount for the Foredom flex shaft machines.
The accessory is far from flimsy.
The motor options are for: high speed/low torque, low speed/high torque, medium speed/high power/high torque.
The hand piece options allow for either chuck or collet models to fit the drill press unit.
The bearings are probably up to doing any wood milling and there seems to be slots to mount an XY table - but the excursion does not seem to be heroic.
This is far from an economical option, but it is sort of a one machine does a lot sort of choice for someone who has not already made serious investment in a power tool collection. As well as the drill and cutting tool function, and the fixed the drill press, there is a right angle grinder, plus router table, clamp in a vise and small belt sanding functions .
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Length of gains for lapstrake hull
Being that this is a Scandinavian lapstrake vessel, it has a long line behind it. Is there not physical evidence of antecedent clinker methods from the 800-900's? The outside limits for land length could reside there. I would bet that a concerted effort was made to maintain a link with that past in how this later vessel was designed and built.
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Jaager got a reaction from shipman in HMS Tiger 1747 by Siggi52 - 1:48 - 60 gun ship from NMM plans
I have not seen the term before, but on an open boat, the painter is a section of rope at the bow that is used to tie it to the back of the ship - or whatever else is towing it. It supplies a metaphor? for removing someone from your support: " cutting the painter". To fit that name, I would guess that the chain is a relatively short length with the distant end not attached to anything - until it is used to temporarily secure an anchor or boat.
Looking at your deadeyes, I wonder if a two part strop would work?
1- a belt that wraps around the body with ends that meet at the bottom.
2- a hole in the deadeye at that bottom site where an eye is glued into the hole. The end of the eye being a pointed tap - twisted?
Would this be faster to mass produce? I can see that a two part epoxy would make this a "forever" unit.
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Jaager got a reaction from druxey in Collection of Greek ships
I have almost zero knowledge about this part of Greek history, but how well does this guess fit?
These ships were "surplus" warships supplied by western powers who were keen on causing as much mischief as possible to the Ottoman Empire? If this is the case, exact or a close approximation of the actual plans or similar ones can be had from West European and maybe North American archives?
The mismatch of guns would be predictable if my guess is correct.
At least the above vessels are the practical workhorses of their era, They could actually do a job. The liners of that time were a total waste of resources, over sized, and ugly. These vessels were sleek and lean and most were probably fast sailing.
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Jaager reacted to Roger Pellett in Would like help identifying clamp and suggestions where I might buy some
The clamps in question are called “C Clamps” or in Great Britain “G Clamps.” A well equipped shop never has enough of them. They are readily available commercially in sizes from 1/2 in to over 12in. Any store selling tools should offer a selection. Mine range from 1in to 8in and I use them constantly, from clamping tiny brass parts for soldering to clamping an entire hull under my drill press.
Much of what I know about woodworking, I learned from my father, a builder of Ship models, boats, buildings, and even an airplane. He taught me when clamping wood to always include wood padding under then clamp screw to avoid marring the surface.
Roger
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Jaager got a reaction from FriedClams in HMS Tiger 1747 by Siggi52 - 1:48 - 60 gun ship from NMM plans
I have not seen the term before, but on an open boat, the painter is a section of rope at the bow that is used to tie it to the back of the ship - or whatever else is towing it. It supplies a metaphor? for removing someone from your support: " cutting the painter". To fit that name, I would guess that the chain is a relatively short length with the distant end not attached to anything - until it is used to temporarily secure an anchor or boat.
Looking at your deadeyes, I wonder if a two part strop would work?
1- a belt that wraps around the body with ends that meet at the bottom.
2- a hole in the deadeye at that bottom site where an eye is glued into the hole. The end of the eye being a pointed tap - twisted?
Would this be faster to mass produce? I can see that a two part epoxy would make this a "forever" unit.
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Jaager got a reaction from Keith Black in HMS Tiger 1747 by Siggi52 - 1:48 - 60 gun ship from NMM plans
I have not seen the term before, but on an open boat, the painter is a section of rope at the bow that is used to tie it to the back of the ship - or whatever else is towing it. It supplies a metaphor? for removing someone from your support: " cutting the painter". To fit that name, I would guess that the chain is a relatively short length with the distant end not attached to anything - until it is used to temporarily secure an anchor or boat.
Looking at your deadeyes, I wonder if a two part strop would work?
1- a belt that wraps around the body with ends that meet at the bottom.
2- a hole in the deadeye at that bottom site where an eye is glued into the hole. The end of the eye being a pointed tap - twisted?
Would this be faster to mass produce? I can see that a two part epoxy would make this a "forever" unit.
-
Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Collection of Greek ships
I have almost zero knowledge about this part of Greek history, but how well does this guess fit?
These ships were "surplus" warships supplied by western powers who were keen on causing as much mischief as possible to the Ottoman Empire? If this is the case, exact or a close approximation of the actual plans or similar ones can be had from West European and maybe North American archives?
The mismatch of guns would be predictable if my guess is correct.
At least the above vessels are the practical workhorses of their era, They could actually do a job. The liners of that time were a total waste of resources, over sized, and ugly. These vessels were sleek and lean and most were probably fast sailing.