SJSoane

Hi everyone, Sorry for the long silence; other things going on! To catch up. First, Der Boss, thank you for your kind comments. Slow and careful keeps me moving along! Trevor, thanks for the reference to Roberts. I haven't seen that, but I do have the facsimile book and set of plates for Steel's Naval Architecture. I have used that to help with several questions of drafting, but could find nothing on the curved surface between the upper deck and quarter deck windows on the quarter galleries. And Gary, good to hear from you! We old timers go back a long way on our 74s! And druxey, thank you for your list of tools and materials you used. I did a little test fret-sawing boxwood, and if I find myself going down the route of fret sawing, I have determined that wood is too crude for the very thin cross grain pieces (see below). I can see plastic would be a much better material, no grain to deal with. And once I saw that plastic might be the right material, I mocked up the curved surface in basswood to see just how sharp the compound curves would be. This would be to test whether glue would be enough to hold flat plastic against the curved surface. And the surface turned out to be less curved than I thought. The front edge sweeps back at a good angle, but at any line drawn between the upper and lower moldings, the surface curve is gentle. So for now, I will explore having these laser cut. I first need to reinstall everything with the final windows (coming from Chuck, thanks so much!), and then carve the final curved surface to measure and expand for a true elevation of the fretwork. Mark

Thanks, everyone, for your comments. Kevin, intriguing idea about 3-D printing, but I don't think I have the skill to work up a 3-D drawing of the double curved quarter gallery surface. It is no known regular geometrical shape, and would have to be built up in sections and faired like a hull. I may come back to this if I can't figure anything else out. And thanks for reminding me of Marc's fabrication techniques. Marc, thanks for thinking about this. Your techniques could well provide a way to build these forms up, rather than attempting to pierce saw them out as a whole. My first experiments showed me some problems with attempting to cut these out of boxwood--grain runs across some of the thin pieces, doesn't have any flexibility--and so I may have to explore other materials if I go down this route. Or, maybe I just make up individual strands with the grain running the length of the piece, and then glue them together at the intersections. This would be more like a mesh that could settle onto the curved form behind, because it could slightly bend at each joint. druxey, I greatly admire your fretwork on the Polyphemus. That is exactly the same kind of fine delicacy of inter-weaving lines that I need to produce. And your's is flawless! Did you fret saw those out of boxwood as individual strands, or pierce-sawed some of them as panels? Sailor, thank you for your kind thoughts. I admit that this challenge slammed on the brakes for a bit, but I remind myself that I have always found a way forward when this happened in the past, particularly with help from this forum. And Greg, like you, I sometimes reflect on the astonishing skill of the 17th and 18th century model builders, especially given their technological limitations relative to our age. Like the old saying about Ginger Rogers--that she did everything Fred Astair did, but backwards and in high heels--the original model builders often did more with less than we have. One can hardly believe humans are capable of such fine work. I also find myself sometimes channeling the original shipwrights, when I am fashioning a piece and realize that a number of people did exactly this same thing two to three centuries ago. What a great hobby. Mark

Hi Alan, Feel free to use the expanded sketch of the stern works. Amazing that it would fit both the Bellona and Bellerophon, but then they were sister ships. And I guess you and I are building pretty close to accurate.... So maybe instead of pierce sawing, I temporarily glue a thin layer of wood to a curved backing, and carve down like a bas-relief all the way through. When it is released from the backing, it will look pierce sawn and pre-fit to the needed curve. I will try to think this through.... Mark

HI everyone, I have hit one of the most challenging parts of my Bellona build, the fretwork on the quarter galleries and balcony rail. Here is photo I took of the first Bellona model a number of years ago, showing the serpentine curve of the balcony I am intending to reproduce: And here is a photo I took a few years ago of the second model, showing how the balcony railing is actually pierced, not solid. and this shows the fretwork on the quarter galleries, which is not shown in the first model. I had been planning to have these laser cut from plastic, based on my drawings of the correct shape and proportions of each frame (thanks to Chuck!). But when I mocked up the double curved surface on the quarter gallery, I discovered that these fretwork panels will have to conform to some very warped surfaces. I am not sure plastic with very little gluing surface can be reliably fastened down by glue alone. I toyed with capturing them in rabbets behind the horizontal mouldings, then I realized that this would not exert enough pressure at the extreme edges to press them against the warped surface. This led me to thinking about maybe pierce sawing them out of a more pliable material, or maybe pierce sawing them out of blanks that are already curved to the correct shape. Or, maybe having them laser cut out of a more pliable material. I tried an experiment of pierce cutting these out of thin boxwood, but the grain was too course for these thin filaments, and the piece broke when I tried to curve it. It looks to me like the second model pierce cut these out of probably ivory, which would solve the problem of a fine enough grain. Maybe Tagua nuts since ivory is not an option? I even thought about pierce sawing them out of thin metal that could bend to the warped surface, then painting them a tan color. Any thoughts about any of this? Best wishes, Mark

Hi Vossiewulf, Yes, the Knew Concepts saw was a game changer for me as well. I was hesitant to try the Knew Concepts metal bench pin, fearing dulling my blades when accidentally cutting into the pin. But I tried it and will never go back to a wood bench pin. This pin gives exceptional stability when sawing very small parts. I periodically slide the piece and the saw back and forth sideways until I find the center of the slot, and then line up the cutting line with the slot. I rarely hit the metal any more. I also finally figured out, after too many years of struggling, that the size of the blade really matters for smooth and accurate sawing. Relative to the thickness of the wood, I read a rule of thumb that at least 3 teeth should be in the wood for smoothness, and at the other end, not too many teeth because it goes very slowly. I tended to use whatever blade was last in the saw, no matter what the thickness of the wood, and the results were not great. Once I decided to size the blade to each piece of wood to be cut, I drew up some charts and glued them to my saw blade storage containers. These show the thickness of wood along the top, and the details of the various blades down the left side. The blue squares show the range of blades suitable for that thickness of wood. I may redraw these soon, because I have found after using these for some time that I am always choosing a finer blade than my chart would suggest. Maybe that is a consequence of the wood I use. I stick a bent piece of wire into the hole of the blade I am currently using, so I can easily put the blade back in its proper place when I switch blades. That means I am mixing up new and used blades in each hole, and I randomly choose one each time. If the blade I choose seems dull, I toss it and grab another. This hasn't happened often. These blades really hold up. There is only one blade that overlaps in size between the Otto Frei jewelry saw blades on the left, and the Pegas fretsaw blades on the right. Together they accommodate wood from .016 to 1 inch. Up at the greater thicknesses, I tend to use my bandsaw. Mark

hi everyone, Druxey, those 18th century shipwrights sure enjoyed playing with fluid shapes; the shipwrights must have groaned when they saw the latest shape to manufacture! Greg, Kevin and Cisco, thanks for your thoughtful comments about the complexities of these constructions. I continue to be amazed when the underlying logic or geometry finally reveals itself, as I struggle to fit all the parts together in three dimensions. I am in awe of the original shipwrights who could visualize and then construct such complex forms. And how the complexity all adds up to something exceedingly beautiful, and simple in its overall visual effect. Hakan, yes, that is a Tormek in the background. I bought it many years ago, struggled to make it work for me, and then put it away. I pulled it back out more recently, to see if I would have better luck now I have had more years of experience with tools. It doesn't help with the small chisels, but some success with the larger ones. Steady progress, but slow going as I work out the intricate geometries of the stern and quarter galleries. I redrew the stern, expanding the geometry in the x and y directions to get a true projection of the sizes and angles. I taped some card to the stern and marked various key points including the important diminishing of the verticals. I then scanned this and put it into CAD, where I could extend the verticals to a common point on the centerline, allowing me then to find the correct angles for the outer edges of the quarter galleries. Here is the flattened drawing: This then allowed me to fabricate the false window walls on the aft side of the quarter galleries, which provides all of the important locations for everything in this area: and then I used spacers to locate the middle railing and top surface of the captain's head. (The horizontal plate one down from the top is a temporary form to help me locate the railing at the base of the windows at this location; it will go away once the railing is in place). I discovered that in this recreation of the original Bellona design of 1760, the captain's space here is pretty tiny. He has about 14" of clearance between his forward door and the curved side of the quarter gallery. It gets a little wider towards the seat at the stern, but even there he has only 2'-9" of clearance. It looks great on the outside, diminishing the entire quarter gallery as it ascends to the top; but the captain could not have been very happy with this. Indeed, in the 1780ish rebuild shown in the second Bellona model, the captain's head is much expanded to match a little closer the size of the officers' head below. Today is the 254th anniversary of Thomas Slade's death, the famous shipwright for the Bellona and Victory. He must have been annoyed when asked to expand the captain's quarter gallery; it looks so much better the way he originally drew it! To help with cutting and shaping these increasingly small and awkward pieces, I bought the Veritas miniature workbench clamping devices. I made up a surface with regular holes, which can attach to the front of my workbench with the GRS mounting plate: Here is the GRS plate holding a Knew Concepts bench pin and saw. I am turning to these increasingly to shape these small parts. This turned out to be such a handy surface for fine work, I added a bench hook for cutting small pieces with the razor saw. It has dowels on the bottom that drop right into the flat surface holes: All for now, Mark

Hi everyone, Thank you, Kevin, for your kind words. It is definitely turning into my life's work after all these years, and many more to go at my current pace. I might as well make it as good as I can! druxey, I agree with your "gazunder" conclusion. Given the geometry of the quarter galleries, the only direct drop from the upper--captain's--seat of ease would discharge directly onto or out of the face of the false window in the quarter gallery below. Not likely. I am sticking with a chamber pot and proceeding accordingly! The stern construction is undoubtedly the most difficult thing I have ever attempted to make. Even planking the upper counter seemed straightforward at first, but the wood is so thin here that I struggled to keep the surface fair while rounding up and aft, and on a curved frame in the vertical direction. I had to redo in order to remove some initial hollow low spots. All is well now, ready for paint. It also strikes me the ridiculous fragility of this entire stern. No wonder captains dreamed of raking their opponents through the stern. Moving to the side lower windows of the quarter gallery, I had read long ago that the upper and lower boundaries of these windows had to be exactly the same radius, held in the same orientation when the top one is offset to the stern. This is to ensure that the vertical mullions between the three windows are parallel to each other in the x and y axis. If they are twisted, the windows would be twisted and could not be paneled with flat sheets of glass. I thought of it as a cylinder sloped back at the angle of the windows across the stern, and then parallel planes aligned with the sheer of the hull cutting through to define the tops and bottoms. Hopefully this diagram makes this clear. The dotted lines are the lines of the window mullions: I arranged this by making panels top and bottom to the same template, then ensuring that the curves coming forward made the same angle with the stern moldings top and bottom: And these resulted in window surfaces that are flat and untwisted. However, the three windows are not geometrically the same, which initially surprised me. Although the length of the sides are the same--since the two planes forming the top and bottom are paralleI--the angles these form with the top and bottom edges of the window are not the same. The sternmost window has a sharper angle, the middle one somehat less but still sharper than the foremost window. I eventually realized that this would have to be. The aft most is most parallel to the side of the sloping cylinder, while the foremost is coming around to the fore face of the cylinder, which is less angled relative to the cutting planes. The sides of a window on the front surface would be at right angles to the tops and bottoms. I also noticed that the changing geometry created an optical illusion. I initially made the three windows the same width fore and aft, then saw that the aft most window looked too skinny relative to the other two. I made a number of paper templates installed in the openings, varying the widths until they "looked" the same width. It turned out that the aft most had to be made wider, then the middle a little less but still wider than the foremost window. Here is the result with the final paper templates: I also discovered the reason for the little scroll work carving at the fore end of the windows, which shows up in every 74 gun ship of this era. It hides the fact that the fore edge of the foremost mullion is not parallel to its aft edge; the upper edge has to be longer than the lower edge in order to fair to the side of the hull. This would have been visually clunky, so they disguised it with a little carving to cover it up. Looking forward, here are paper templates of the upper works: Still a lot to do! Mark

Interesting, interesting! Thanks everyone! So here is a first thought about how the pipes would run to a discharge in the lower counter, under the quarter galleries. Some assumptions: 1. The pipe from above has to run down the outer face of the hull--along the inner wall of the lower quarter gallery, in other words--because there is no place to bury the pipe in the hull itself. Presumably there would be a paneled chase to disguise it. 2. Offsetting the seats doesn't appear possible, or helpful. The Bellona admiralty drawing show the lower one centered in the bench. The upper bench is so short that there is not much room to offset. And given number 1 above, there is no advantage gained in an offset a few inches one way or the other since the pipe has to bend inboard to run down the outer face of the hull anyway. 3. The two discharges could be aligned athwartships, with the upper pipe closer to the hull and the lower pipe further out. maybe closely paired like twin exhausts in a sports car! 4. I don't see these both bending sharply forward another three feet--and outward to clear the tumblehome-- in a two foot drop to discharge through the lower finishing. It is just asking for clogs. 4. I have provided a chamber pot for the upper toilet, just in case those long runs of pipe with bends doesn't always do the job!🙄 Mark

Thanks so much, Alan and Marc. I don't know if I am slowing down because I am getting older or the work is getting more complicated, or both. But it is a good push to keep going when I am able to share progress. Interesting question about the plumbing arrangements in the quarter galleries in the mid eighteenth century. I have only found Brian Lavery's account in the Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War, pages 202-204. He says that "presumably there was some form of piping...especially from the upper galleries." And he refers to some pipes on models. I have not seen this. Can anyone send me a photo of a model with this piping showing? I am looking at the path piping would have to take, particularly from the upper quarter gallery, and there are some serious bends and long horizontal runs to get to a discharge in the lower finishing. One wonders how this was efficiently flushed out. Lavery notes that a flushing cistern and water closet was first ordered in 1779, 20 years after the Bellona was completed, and even then few ships were fitted with such. Without such a device, it would have been jugs of water poured down, and maybe a long loo brush or sewer snake? The alternative idea, of a chamber pot, would have replicated the same toilet arrangements many of the officers would have experienced in their land based homes at the time, I presume. I also noticed that in the HMS Victory quarter gallery open to public viewing, the hole is in a hinged hatch on the bench, which I interpreted to be the access to the chamber pot beneath. But that is pure speculation on my part. Small point that I probably won't address further in my model, but it is an interesting question about 18th century technology. Any further information on this would be greatly appreciated!

It has been a long time since I last posted. This stern structure is undoubtedly the most complex and difficult thing I have ever attempted to build. But I am making progress. I had to use the horizontal moulding between the lower and upper counters, and also between the upper counter and the window sills, as templates for determining the curve and width of the quarter galleries. So these were left unmoulded for a time--and therefore a little stiffer--in order to keep everyone in alignment. Here I am confirming the window layout. the window frames will obviously require some leveling when they are finally installed: And here is a template to see how it is all going to line up: Next, the officer toilets are constructed. Working from a cryptic plan drawing in the original admiralty draughts, and a photo of Victory's quarter gallery, I decided that these were likely just holes in a bench with a chamber pot underneath, retrieved by a hinged top to the bench. Fun work for the officer servants to clean up every day. I wonder where they dumped these overboard--at the head, perhaps? And then the mouldings are given their profile, and glued in place at last! Next to come, planking the upper counter and the veneer of planking on the quarter galleries, druxey's great suggestion. I don't know how I would ever have formed these pieces without carving them from a whole piece. Curves in too many directions!

druxey, great idea, planking over the blank rather than scratching in the plank lines. That way, I can get tight joins to the mouldings, and also cope with how the planking on the counter intersects the planking on the quarter gallery. I am thinking that the planking on the quarter galleries runs past the planking on the counter, so the planking ends are seen from the stern and not from the side. that was going to be very hard to do, if I had to rabbet the quarter gallery blanks to receive the ends of the planking on the counter. And thanks, Marc, for reminding me of Siggi's work. There is always much to learn from him. His post was like a road map for me, what is coming next and how to deal with it. It also reminded me that I have some challenging painting to do on the lower counter! Mark

Thanks so much, Yves, Scrubby and Mike, for your kind comments. I have not posted in a while, because I was having to work out a few new challenges as I begin to work my way up from the lower finishing. First challenge: how to frame and plank the quarter gallery surface above the lower finishing? This is the blue band between the lower stool rail and the lower gallery rim, below: It curves, twists, and fays to the side of the hull with a shape I could not determine in advance. Also, how would I plank the inner surface once the framing was in place? I remember seeing a model of the Superb, with its stern in pieces. With the quarter gallery lying on its side, it is possible to see that this piece appeared to be cut out of a single block. So I decided to do that. This way, I could fair each edge to a known surface, and thereby discover the actual form. Then I could scribe the planking on the outer surface later. First, I drew the top and bottom profiles as best I could determine from my drawings. I pasted one on top and bottom of a blank, then shaped the outer surface to match each edge. After refining while checking against the actual model, I came up with the shape and how it fit against the hull: Here you can see the wicked twist in the shape. And here you can see it pinned temporarily in place (this is a trial blank I made out of basswood, to quickly see if this would work): Next, I had to work out the shapes of the mouldings on its lower edge, which is the knuckle between the lower and upper counters. It took a long time to realize that the moulding here is the not the same profile along the counter as it is along the side of the quarter gallery. These have to miter cleanly at the corner, but they are very different profiles. Looking carefully at the sections below (cut through the quarter gallery on the left, and through the knuckle of the lower and upper counters on the right), you can see that the face of the quarter gallery is almost vertical, whereas the face of the upper counter slopes back quite substantially. I finally realized that in order for these to miter together, the important thing is the thickness of the moulding in both locations has to be the same at the top and the bottom. Also, the top edge of the moulding on the quarter gallery has to align with the roundup of the moulding along the counter, whereas the top edge of the moulding on the counter has to align with the sheer of the external hull planking. A little geometry worked out the profile for each, so they would fair to their own surfaces while mitering cleanly at the corner. Next challenge: how to cut the profiles with a scraper? All of my earlier mouldings were just straight blanks cut on a flat surface and later gently bent to the sheer of the hull. But these mouldings are on sharply curved surfaces. I decided for reasons of accuracy in the overall construction to shape the blanks of the mouldings to their final curves, rather than making flat mouldings and bending them to the shape later. I saw too many places for things to get out of alignment if I did not make accurate blanks to start with. So how to scrape a shape on a curved blank, which also has top and bottom edges not at right angles to the face of the moulding? I decided to make formers, to which I could temporarily glue the blank, and use the former to guide a fence on my cutter holder. Here you can see the cutter for the moulding on the quarter gallery. The face of the fence is at an angle to the cutter, corresponding to the angle of the top of the moulding. You can see the necessity of the angle, because if the fence were at right angles, the cutter would tear up the shape as it progressively works its way down. Here is the scraper at work: And here is the moulding temporarily spot glued in place, to check its fit and final size. This is also the final faux planked piece, cut out of boxwood after the basswood trial worked: The flat piece faintly labeled STAR BD eventually goes away. This was a temporary former for getting all of the railings in their proper location and shape. The rabbeted rail is the base of the window frames still to come. I have frankly struggled with making scraper profiles, until Chuck suggested I just make them out of brass rather than fussing with tool steel, softening to file and hardening to use. Each profile here is only going to be used for one or two parts, and then can be thrown away. So I worked out profiles based on the two semi-circles, and accurately drilled these in the brass blank on a mill: Then I carefully filed the remainder of the profile using a needle barrette file and a jewelers clamp to ensure right angles to each side. This is important for the cutter to work the same in both directions. At last, I got accurate profiles with no heat treating challenges. Thanks, Chuck! Now on the port side, and the big moulding along the knuckle here. Best wishes, Mark

And in just one more day, the port side is painted. Much faster second time through. I got more efficient with the masking: The port side. I am glad I took the time to paint the edges of the planking at the ports with red, giving a very clean junction where they cut into the wale at the stern. And very satisfying to see both black wales from the bow: And now back to the quarter galleries! Mark

Hi JD and Mike, I use General Finishes Gel Topcoat, Wipe On Urethane in Satin (cleans up with mineral spirits). It is a rub in, rub off finish. On the raw boxwood, it darkens it up and gives the slightest sheen. You can see it on the exposed futtocks below the wale, compared to the raw wood above the wale. It is a little challenging to apply to all of the ledges and carlings on the exposed deck frames; I haven't quite figured out an efficient way to apply it between the spaces, and then rub off well into the corners. I used Vallejo Model Air acrylic for the black. Thanks, Chuck, for the kind comment. I am trying some Vallejo colors for spraying the plastic window frames to look like boxwood. I'll let you know what works best! Mark

Thanks, Greg, for the kind comment on the project. And druxey, thanks for clarifying why the quarter galleries shape to a point at their fore end. While "ensconced", the Captain could keep an eye on the trim of the sails from a different perspective! After a great deal of fussing with airbrush and compressor, I finally got the starboard wale painted. It is currently flat black, but will have a coat of the transparent poly gel over it, the same finish as for the rest of the hull. it will give a little sheen and lighten the color, according to my test pieces. It looks nice with those mean black cannon poking through the ports... Another fun masking process before the paint. I had to turn the hull on its side so I could spray the under edge of the wale, avoiding using an airbrush pointed upwards.... Next, the port wale, and then back to constructing the quarter galleries! Mark