woodrat
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Everything posted by woodrat
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Thanks, Steven. This is a very good find! It matches some of the carrack figureheads seen in 15th century illustrations. I based my figurehead for the half-hull model on this sort of beast A similar beast may be made out on the trombetta illustration. Here is the figurehead for the Kraek vessel Cheers Merry Xmas Dick
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The article by Salisbury has a diagram of the mast remnants. It is also found in the excellent monograph "The Good Ship" by Ian Friel. I cant reproduce here because of copyright. Dick
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Masts in larger vessels of the middle ages were "made" masts. That is to say, made of several spars shaped and scarfed together and then surrounded by hemp wooldings usually nailed to the mast. This is seen well in this mid 15th century illustration from the Trombetta manuscript. Only smaller vessels had pole mainmasts made from a single spar. Foremasts and mizzen masts were usually single spars. Although maststeps commonly are preserved with the keel in shipwrecks, surviving masts are not usually found. An exception is the Woolwich ship found in 1912 (R.C. Anderson Mariner’s Mirror May 1959) and thought to be the Sovereign 600 tons of 1488 (W Salisbury MM 47 1961) . This wreck had a surviving 10 foot stump of mainmast still in its step. It was 1.32 metres in circumference. By my calculations, this would make it 42cm in diameter at its base. I have elected to attempt a "made" mast based on the Woolwich ship This will have a central large spar octagonal in shape (the spindle or spyndell) with 8 filling pieces surrunding it. Below deck level the mast would probably remained octagonal but would be rounded above deck level. Dick
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I think triangular deadeyes are correct but more likely to be found in northern europe as in the W A Kraeck . The Mediterranean practice seems more likely to have been pendants and blocks Some of these blocks were massive and elongated These are just my opinions. Certainly I would not criticise the choice of deadeyes. There would have been much regional variability Dick
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I don't think deadeyes would be correct for this era, at least not the mediterranean. I will go with pendants and blocks as seem to be shown in Carpaccio. The wattling may be a good idea for some of the windbreaks of the quarterdeck accommodation. Great model Tadeusz, which plans did you use? dick
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Where DO you find these things? I have not seen them afore. Some are clearly sketches of nefs used as table ornaments or salt cellars by the nobility. Often these were made of silver but sometimes combined with precious stones or even nautilus shells. Few of these nefs have survived to the modern era. "Burghley nef" by The original uploader was VAwebteam at English Wikipedia https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Burghley_nef.jpg#/media/File:Burghley_nef.jpg The most detailed one seems to be a votive model. Of note is the presence of a "loading port" as seen in the famous "Kraeck" illustration of the flemish master W A. Very interesting! Note also the ventilation ports AND the apparent projecting beams at the level of the mainwales!!! As in the Trombetta illustration!!!
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Thanks, David. I have not considered that. What is the mechanism? I am not a NRG member. Is that a requirement? Cheers. Dick
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Tadeusz43 has pointed out that I used his photo of the Nao Victoria without attribution and I apologise for that unreservedly. The offending photo has been deleted. Sorry Tadeusz. Dick
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Thanks, Steven. I agree that the 15th century mastmakers had the skill to fabricate multipiece masts but do not think that the wedges would extend to the centre. The illustration from the Tavola Strozzi shows a square section just below the maintop about which the forestay is secured and which is above the shrouds. This indicates to me that there is a large central spar with either a square or octagonal cross-section to which the external spars are secured by wooldings. Dick
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Thanks, Carl. The square transom of the nao Victoria reconstruction dates it to early sixteenth century about 80 years after my ship. It does show well the type of vessel used by the portuguese and spanish in the great age of exploration. Look how small it is! Cheers. Dick
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Thanks, Steven. Great pictures which demonstrate what a great marine artist Carpaccio was. The detail is extraordinary. These pics confirm my belief that the forecastle was much narrower than many models depict and that the lapstrake planking below the forecastle has a distinct tumblehome which I have tried to depict in my model. as I have not done much the last few months as I have been shifting my workshop which, as you know, takes up most of the time available for modelling. I am trying to work out a way to construct the mainmast which was made up with many spars shaped and lashed together over a central mainspar. I could just turn it in one piece, I suppose. How is the dromon cross section going? Dick
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Thanks Jud and Crackers. I would still love to know more. This would be a great Ph.D thesis for some aspiring nautical archaeologist Dick
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On reflection and having reviewed my books, I think that there is no evidence for routine or common usage of bells in mediaeval ships. Most large ships had trumpeters as seen in contemporary illustrations. Zorzi da Modone whose illustration I am using for my model was also called Trombetta (trumpeter). Presumably, the ships trumpeter could be used for signalling much as would a bell. Dick
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These references may be of use: Pryor, J Mariner's Mirror 219: 70.3 fig.13 Also reproduced in Lillian Ray Martin also Landstrom, Bjorn 1961: the Ship: an illustrated history figs. 215-18 Dick
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I am constructing a scratch-built venetian carrack of 1445 http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-nave-tonda-by-woodrat/ and I can find no evidence that ships bells were in use in this period. My feeling is that they were. Certainly the Grace dieu had a bell. Does anyone have any proof that mediaeval ships had bells? Cheers Dick
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Thanks Cap'n Steve and George. A lot of the deck machinery and quarterdeck/ poop accommodation is just educated guessing based on the limited contemporary illustrations available. There are no plans available as ship design was kept secret. Unfortunately the little archaeological evidence there is consists mainly of hull remnants usually only up to turn of bilge. I have a little more work on ladders, doors and poop/forecastle accommodation before I can start on the masting and rigging which will be fun,I think. Dick
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present state of the build. Dick
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Sorry Nenad. I just had to change the knights to more practical models. I think this looks more workmanlike if not so artistic Dick
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I have decided to redo the knights as they are impractical.
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This may be of assistance The trireme shown in trippwj's post is the reconstruction of 1861 suggested by Auguste Jal on the orders of Napoleon III. It was designed by Dupuy de Lome. It was an epic failure by all accounts. Dick
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I have decided to have two knights to raise the yard which would have been heavy and will make a capstan to assist. Here is an illustration from the Trombetta manuscript showing, I believe, a knight in situ. Other people have suggested that this is a person but this is clearly not the case Cheers Dick
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Nice quality drawings, which CAD package do you use? I use Penanink ver 1.1 although I am trying to upgrade to later versions. The lower ports would rquire some modification to the frames (presumably the toptimbers), to allow excursion of the lower bank of oars. As you are not including this in your model it is probably academic but may be needed in your cross-section mockup. I agree with you that if both banks of oars are manned by one rower per oar, there does not seem to be a need for the oarbenches to be angled and that orientation at right angles to the keel should be OK. Dick
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What about the lateral stability provided by oars? This would be lost if all oars are stowed inboard. Would this not increase the risk of capsize? Also, during an action, at least the lower bank of oars would need to be manned in case the dromon had to manoeuvre or in case the upper deck is overrun and the upper bank taken over by the enemy as I believe happened at least once. In that case the lower bank prevented the dromon from being rowed off by the enemy. Dick
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A couple of thoughts. Why would you want to bring the oars inboard during a battle? This would produce lateral instability and a chance of capsize. Bringing the oars onboard would also hinder movement along the deck. Would there be a mechanism to lock the oars outboard to maintain lateral stability and free the rowers to fight. Some illustrations of fighting dromons seem to indicate the vessels going prow to prow and fighting from their castles and siphons. Perhaps boarding occurred over bow or poop. Also would clashing of oars be prevented by increasing the amount of flare of the upper part of the bulwarks slightly as well as having the upper oars longer with different shaped blades because of the lower angle of entry to the water? Cheers Dick
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Thanks, Jan for the feedback. I do like this sort of constructive criticism. I cant claim to have got it right but it seems to me the people who built the Trombetta nave , a very large ship for its time, were less concerned by its speed through the water than with strengthening the hull so it didnt fall apart. There was a great variability in these "futtock riders" and they often go almost to the midpoint of the hull. I did make an attempt to taper them at their lower end. Maybe not enough, who knows? This is the original illustration of the Trombetta nave which I have followed. even the modern reconstruction of the Matthew shows these rather bulky futtock riders extending to the waterline ( or below it were the ship to heel at all many of the contemporary illustrations seem to have been made either of a ship model or of a ship out of water. They seem to show much more of the hull than would be seen in a ship in the water. If this ship was really afloat it would be sitting much lower and the external bracing thingies would be partly below water! Cheers Dick
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