woodrat
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Everything posted by woodrat
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I think you will find I have detailed these in the initial pages of this build. I have used only sources contemporary with the vessel depicted (15th century CE). No modern reconstructions were used. Dick -
No, but his hair is like the feather headdresses seen in depictions of mycenaean warriorsWachsmann after Morricone 1975 Cheers Dick
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The hull is well underway. This the latest sheer plan of the vessel with figures for scale. Dick
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Yes, the ship you are doing may be rounder than the Contarina 1 ship which I measure at about 4:1 but your vessel is probably earlier than Contarina. The Logonova wreck of about 1400 CE is also about 4:1. Dick
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Steven, great to get you back cutting wood. That cross section looks vaguely familiar. Just a question or two: What will your length to beam ratio be and how will you calculate narrowing of the floors? Dick🙂
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Thanks Steven. The next strake has a sigmoid scarf which were seen in ancient ships. I have used a simple jig to drill for the mortices. and pegged I think one more strake then do the turn of the bilge. Dick
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On the contrary the process is very basic and low tech. Cutting a continuous line in which to position the tenons is easy on a straight line or convex curve bbut not possible on concave edges. So these have to be cut individually. I tried burrs knives and even a high speed mill. None were satisfactory. I then realised that, in order to do these mortices in a rapid production line way, the ancient shipwrights must have had shortcuts. One thought is drilling a series of set depth holes and cleaning up with a chisel. I tried this and it works quite well and is quick. Next I will make a jig to do this reproducibly. Dick
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These pics show the fittingof a strake using the pegged mortice and tenon technque. No glue is used. It is quite strong. Dick
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Thanks, Ferrus. I guess I will have to take the FINISHED sign off the title. Dick
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Its time the Woodrat chewed some wood. The following is a prototype keel/plank. I have imagined this hewn from a single trunk and shaped with adzes. The mast step is integral with the keel as is the stempost basis. I then imagined some bending of the keel using heat and some type of bending jig. The sternpost is not as you would imagine. I have decided to adapt some of the principles used in egyptian ships such as the Khufu barge and will sleeve on a hollow sternpost. At least that is the plan. Here'tis: the scarf for the stern "post" the stempost is narrowed from bottom to top and from aft forwards next to play with the garboard strakes. Cheers Dick
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As you can see, the foremast step and partners are there, so you can see that I originally planned a foremast. I just dont know if and when I can go back now and put it in. One thing I am not doing is redoing the mainmast stay, the foremast is surrounded by the strands of the stay. Dick
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I originally planned to install a foremast and ,at the last moment changed my mind. One valued book I consulted was "The Art and Archaeology of Venetian Ships and Boats" by Lillian Ray Martin. The representations of ships were analysed and classified. At the time of my carrack, 1445, all three types of square rig: one, two or three masts were widely used in the Mediterranean with the one-masted being much the commonest. So I chose the middle ground. As for accuracy, all I claim is that this is about as close a representation of one ship depicted in one manuscript as I could make and maybe a typical example of its type. But accurate cannot be applied to it as too much is guesswork e.g. the deck furniture. As to putting in a foremast now since, as you say, there is a hole for it and and the timbers are offset (well spotted again), I have considered this but the model is now encased in a display cabinet at a remote site from my workshop. I will think on it. A furled yard would be appropriate Dick
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Ferrus, I dont want to derail your thread so I will answer your question on the carrack in my log of the carrack modelshipworld.com/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-cocha-by-woodrat-finished-164/page/21/ Cheers Dick
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Who defines accuracy? I have never claimed accuracy for my model. Whenever possible, decisions on hull design and rigging were based on contemporary iconography and manuscripts and not on modern reconstructions which may have included later practices in the rigging. This is not to say that late medaeval venetian practices did not include tacks, just that the pictures that I found dont show them. Reference is made (Bellabarba 1998) to a contrascota. This may be a reference to a tack as the sheet is called a scota in venetian dialect. Landstrom in his reconstruction of the Mataro carrack shows a tack but this is a modern reconstruction based on what evidence? The Mataro carrack's rigging is largely fragmentary and certainly did not show a tack or even a sheet. Here are some 15th century pictures showing carracks under sail. Does the last picture show the starboard clew pulled forward by a tack? Maybe. Carpaccio is reliable source. Ferrus Manus has asked this question: Weren't you going to add a foremast to your ship? what happened to that? I originally planned to install a foremast and ,at the last moment changed my mind. One valued book I consulted was "The Art and Archaeology of Venetian Ships and Boats" by Lillian Ray Martin. The representations of ships were analysed and classified. At the time of my carrack, 1445, all three types of square rig: one, two or three masts were widely used in the Mediterranean with the one-masted being much the commonest. So I chose the middle ground. As for accuracy, all I claim is that this is about as close a representation of one ship depicted in one manuscript as I could make and maybe a typical example of its type. But accurate cannot be applied to it as too much is guesswork e.g. the deck furniture. Dick
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Please go to modelshipworld.com/topic/4915-venetian-carrack-or-cocha-by-woodrat-finished-164/page/21/#comments for my reply Cheers Dick
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It's a bit of sleight -of-hand, Ferrus, Well spotted. What is holding up the sail. There are bowlines etc but they arent doing it What I did was simply sew the sail to the forestay and if you look carefully you can see a slight angulation in the middle of the forestay There, the secret is out😁 Cheers Dick
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Beams for the false deck below the main deck are installed as well as some main deck beams. The pump housing and forward bulkhead for the water storage hold are also installed temporarily. the ladder inside the housing allows access to the cannonball storage around the base of the mast Note the sliding access port to the housing Dick
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This shows a method of producing pegged mortice and tenon edge joined planks. I cut a 1mm slot in the plank edge and made some 1mm tenons. When assembled and pegged without glue the join was so strong I could not pull it apart or sheer it. Dick
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I think the Gurob ship cart model reinforces the likelihood of there being a keel-plank rather than a keel. There are other useful things. Thanks, Waldemar Dick
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Yes, Steven, I have the Age of the Galley and Pryor's tome and have used both. A precis of Shelley Wachsmann's book on the Bronze Age appears in the Age of the Galley. I have also thought that different length oars may be need for upper and lower banks. Also there has to be a way to rapidly ship oars by bringing them inboard. Are the port and starboard rowers offset so that they can shoot their oars across? A double banked corinthian galley is seen showing the upper and lower banks being rowed out of phase, From Greek Oared Ships, Morrison and Williams 1968 This possibly supports the differential oar lengths. It would also lead to a smoother progress for the galley and maybe more speed? Waldemar, thanks for that great link to the Gurob model. The egyptian model certainly has features like a Sea Peoples or Mycenaean galley as seen through egyptian eyes. The vertical stanchions are emphasised and are not seen in egyptian ships. The vertical stempost is notable as is the small protrusion of the keel which could not yet be called a ram.. The Erechthion model seems to be an oil lamp but does suggest a shape of the ship plan. Also, note the large through beam on which the quarter rudders would bear. Dick
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Thanks all Thanks all for the encouragement. Big question: was the hull sewn or mortice and tenon. Nobody knows . But we have the Uluburun wreck from the ssame period which is pegged mortice and tenon and a keel. I have been looking at the Khufu Royal BArge from the Old Kingdom of Egypt, a sewn vessel with a keel plank. This is from a much earlier period but shows how well sewn vessels of size can be made. I think for the first iteration of the hull I will try edge to edge planking with a keel-plank, run it up to the flagpole and see if anyone salutes Here is the latest sheer If the upper bank is manned the cowhide, which is suspended from a longitudinal rail, provides protection from sun, spray and arrows . The oars would project under the free edge of the cowhide. The lower bank of rowers is seated more medial and less in need of protection except from nasty things dropped on them by the upper b......s! Cheers Dick
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With great thanks to Roger, Waldemar, Steven and Thanasis. The posts supervening have opened my eyes to things of which I have little ken. My training is biomedical but I have often interfaced with engineers and usually bow deeply to their arcane skill. Somewhere in the dank recesses of my brain a cunning plan is forming which, it can be said, cannot fail. Hopefully then I will not let Waldemar down and produce a model that is, if not perfect, then at least feasible. Cheers Dick
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Just a correction to my previous post. Due to my lack of Greek, I misinterpreted the photo showing the hull support. It is actually on Samothrace not Samos. The stereobates on Samos give a measurement of length and width only. However this does not alter the discussion on hull stability. I note that a large number of stone anchors are found in these bronze age wrecks. Presumably one of their functions was as useful ballast to counter the horrid tendency for these barkies to turn turtle (as is illustrated in the Medinet Habu reliefs). I don't think the Uluburun wreck will help us much as it was a merchant sailor. Should I deepen the hull a bit, do you think? Also, the keel plank would be a rather bulky baulk of timber which could help with stability.🤔 Another thought. As there is pottery evidence of the mycenaean galleys being rowed from either top or bottom bank, would they only use the lower bank in calm waters and the upper bank if there was a tendency to heel a bit? Dick
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This is the case, Steven. The difference between the mycenaean galleys of the Late Helladic and the galleys of the Geometric are largely cosmetic but also represent the evolution of martime warfare from the previous techniques (hurling stone blocks or anchors into enemy ships or assaulting with projectiles) to the revolutionary advent of the ram, first seen in the geometric galleys. The advent of the ram constitutes one of the first naval arms races which, together with smaller, more manoeuvrable galleys enabled quick despatch of ramless galleys. From then on all galleys had to have rams. So, in my opinion, it is valid to use information from the Geometric period to inform its predecessor. Dick
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