harvey1847

Hello All!
 
At last Saint Fryday! a whole weekend to spend modelling...
 
A small update. The keelson. When I remove the Triton from the jig, even all that pine chocks between the frames, was quite weak. Indeed I broke some of them trying to simulate the movement I should do with a sand block.
 
I put the keelson to strength the hull. From now on I have a good central "line" of wood and I can start adding the thick stuff in the inside. The inside is allready faired. I also cut yesterday the mighty hawse pieces. I´ll give them a try today. Finger cross.
 
Here are some pics...
 
 
 

 
I had to bevel a little bit the stern keelson to be able to fit it between the aft frames. The gap there was pretty narow.
 

 

 

 
Best wishes!
 
 
daniel.

Hello all!
 
Finally I´ve been able to get a camera ( a 2004 one from my mother). I will put lots of pictures at last!!
 
In the last post all the frames forward from the stern were set but not glued.
 
It took me a while to cut different pieces as spacers to put on the keel. I numbered this chocks because I removed all the frames and glued only some of them aft and the cant frames forward.
 
 
 
I have started sanding both, the aft and fwd. frames. Before starting to sand I reinforced the frames at the ends with some chocks of pine and spacers of the same width like the ones I numbered on the keel. Since there were no frames in the middle of the hull the sanding was easier. The bevel goes pretty steep on those. It is a Good advice that Randy or Bubblehead told to me once. Thanks to them.
 
 
 
I have put lots of chocks between the frames, some a strip of timber, other ones made from a same piece of pine wood cut in half to ensure that in both sides (PS and SB) is the same width.
 
 
 
The handmade sanding blocks were pretty useful. I started with a #3 grit paper. I´ll sand it later with smaller grains. I have glued the paper to the block using “contact glue”. Hope the pic attached will talk by itself. One that has been the best is just an ikea spoon, specially working on the cant frames.
 
 
 
Once the aft frames were much more or less sand I secured the hull adding two 4x4mm beams.
 
Then I have moved to glue all the square frames of the middle. Put the rest of the chocks between the frames and back to sanding again.
 

 

 

 

 
Right now I am cutting the patterns for the hawse pieces and for the keelson. My intention is to strength more the hull by adding the keelson and the at least the #9 thick stuff and #12 lower deck clamps. Then I´ll glue four or five temporary #14 lower deck beams to strength again the hull and get ready of the 4x4 beams…
 
I have completed the hull on November 16th of 2013. She looks beautiful. While sanding her with my hands once and once again sometimes I close my eyes and just feel the shape of the hull. It feels funfantascic, is like touching a sculpture… Anyway I use a 4x1mm ribband to see where I have to sand more or less. It is very helpful.
 Lot of work to do ahead but I feel kind of happy seeing the main whole thing completed.
 
Happy Wiiiiinter!
 
Daniel.

Beautiful piece of metal Piet!
 
Are you going to add some kind of locking wheel? It looks on the pictures like it has none. Maybe was some kind of interior lock and the preassure door was under this first one. Just thinking. Maybe I´ve seen lots of movies...
 
Happy modelling.
 
Daniel.

Rob,

As I have said, there is clear documented evidence - for example 20 years of American Lloyds Registry listings - that YA was iron strapped - not at issue and not a guess. By the way, if you look at Table 12.1, p. 198, in Crothers, you will see that McKay used iron bracing as well.

My statement(s) about Webb using lighter structures is based on the many diagrams and tables in Crothers book as well as drawings and other sources that list timber sizes and layouts. Have a look. I do not believe that Webb was "fond" of less wood, but rather that he was confident in the sizes and designs he used and that confidence was justified by the performance and longevity of ships like YA - 30 years, 50 trips around Cape Horn - pretty good. I call this good engineering. I admire it and the courage it takes to pactice it. This attracted me to Webb. No criticism of McKay or any other builder is intended.

As to the question of whether sufficient information is available to build an authentic structural model of Young America, the answer is yes. If this were not the case, I would not be building this model.  I am usually pretty up front in the postings on sources and where any discretion has to be applied.

For the configuration and details of iron strapping, I would refer you to Crothers, p, 197. I will discuss the strapping on the model when we get to it.

I think we have beaten this subject to death on this log. Perhaps this would be a good topic in the Research section.  With your permission, lets move on.

Ed
 

Thanks to everyone who visited my build log and clicked the like button, it's much appreciated.
 
@ Boris, to answer your question I'll have to browse through all my photos in the O 19 file, very time consuming and will try to find the pic.  I think I have seen it somewhere.  I also believe that they were put on at a later date but not sure now.  I know the O 21 had the net / cable cutters and she was launched just a few months after the O 19 and O 20.
Thanks for answering the anchor question.  FYI, the O 19 and O 20 had a "mushroom" anchor dropping down from the keel at frame 138 and they also had a side anchor on the starboard side.
The model drawings for the O 21 does not seem to have a mushroom anchor but a side anchor is also not shown.  It would stand to reason that all subs should have an anchor, but where is the question for those other then the O 19 and O 20.  At least I know that for sure because of the original drawings from the Navy Archive.
 
I completed the installation of the trim vane guards and the little fairings.  These gave me more work then I anticipated but I think it dressed up the area.  I'll hold off with adding the "teeth" to the leading edges till I find the pics I think I have.  I may have jumped the gun with these.  If the O 19 did not have them before January 1941 then I'll have to remove them because I want to depict this model as my father knew her and sailed on her.
 
Please stand by for the final word on the "teeth."
 
Here are two photos of the trim guards and the fairings.
 

I temporarily put the trim plane into it's socket for effect.
 

Another view but now with the trim plane extended.
 
Cheers, 
 
 

Thanks again to all yuns who visited my shipyard and clicked on "like."
 
Today was very productive and fun.  First thing I did was searching for my mast / spar sanding jig but gave up.  I decided to make a new one and post a "how to" to Adriaan's (Andrieke) King of the Mississippi log because he had trouble with breaking his and so did Robbyn.  No problem, it was all done in an hour, with the help of the Admiral Gwen.
After lunch I posted everything on Andrieke's log and was asked by Mark T. to also post it in the how to section of the Forum.  I know that there are other ways to do this but this is a quick, easy and above all, a cheap way.  What else can you expect from a Dutchman, eh?      
 
That gave me some time to finish making the ladder for the forward crew escape hatch tube and the hinges.
This was accomplished before lunch and I could now temporarily put this in place inside the deck structure. Once this assembly is permanently cemented in place there is no way to remove the hinge pin, so I must be sure that everything fits and works.  That'll be for Sunday to determine and for making the final adjustments. then it's on to the other escape tubes.
 

I made a jig to hold all the parts and pieces together to make the ladder.  The clamp doesn't only hold everything down but acts as a heat-sink.  I had to spend some time cleaning off the excess solder.
 

This shows the ladder installed and tack-soldered to the bottom of the tube.  Out of sight out of mind   I also soldered the center hinge on for the domed door.  Prior to attaching it to the tube I filed the round rungs flat for a better and natural appearance 
 

Here is the tube assembly out in place temporarily with the domed door standing by.  I modified my oak die to give it a more prominent dome.  Obviously the edges will shrink and i have to cut a slit into it before putting de die and brass piece in the vise.  This will be covered with a small strip of brass that will also have the outside hinge tubes soldered to it.  I don't know yet how i'm going to tackle the large domed doors for the AA gun tubes.
 

In the meantime i cut two small sections of brass tube for the door hinges and soldered them on. Had to use a heat-sink there as well but it all worked out okay.  here is the entire assembly put together and temporarily put in place in the deck structure.  I forgot to take a pic with the door closed but it looks real good.  I think I'll paint the inside of the tube a light grey.  The bottom of the hole will be flat black.
 
 

This is a shot from another angle, looking aft.  You are probably wondering what that circular mark is for?  Glad you asked.  That's where the future ventilation outlet will be.  It's for exhausting inside stale and hot air to the outside while on the surface through a high capacity electric fan.  I'm not sure yet whether it's in the center of a little towards port.
 
Cheers, 
 
 

Looking good. I hate doing hawse frames, always takes me more then one try to get it right, but this way I have scrap wood for smaller stuff. Excellent work. Keep the pictures coming.

Hello All!
 
At last Saint Fryday! a whole weekend to spend modelling...
 
A small update. The keelson. When I remove the Triton from the jig, even all that pine chocks between the frames, was quite weak. Indeed I broke some of them trying to simulate the movement I should do with a sand block.
 
I put the keelson to strength the hull. From now on I have a good central "line" of wood and I can start adding the thick stuff in the inside. The inside is allready faired. I also cut yesterday the mighty hawse pieces. I´ll give them a try today. Finger cross.
 
Here are some pics...
 
 
 

 
I had to bevel a little bit the stern keelson to be able to fit it between the aft frames. The gap there was pretty narow.
 

 

 

 
Best wishes!
 
 
daniel.

Hello All!
 
At last Saint Fryday! a whole weekend to spend modelling...
 
A small update. The keelson. When I remove the Triton from the jig, even all that pine chocks between the frames, was quite weak. Indeed I broke some of them trying to simulate the movement I should do with a sand block.
 
I put the keelson to strength the hull. From now on I have a good central "line" of wood and I can start adding the thick stuff in the inside. The inside is allready faired. I also cut yesterday the mighty hawse pieces. I´ll give them a try today. Finger cross.
 
Here are some pics...
 
 
 

 
I had to bevel a little bit the stern keelson to be able to fit it between the aft frames. The gap there was pretty narow.
 

 

 

 
Best wishes!
 
 
daniel.

Hello All!
 
At last Saint Fryday! a whole weekend to spend modelling...
 
A small update. The keelson. When I remove the Triton from the jig, even all that pine chocks between the frames, was quite weak. Indeed I broke some of them trying to simulate the movement I should do with a sand block.
 
I put the keelson to strength the hull. From now on I have a good central "line" of wood and I can start adding the thick stuff in the inside. The inside is allready faired. I also cut yesterday the mighty hawse pieces. I´ll give them a try today. Finger cross.
 
Here are some pics...
 
 
 

 
I had to bevel a little bit the stern keelson to be able to fit it between the aft frames. The gap there was pretty narow.
 

 

 

 
Best wishes!
 
 
daniel.

Thank you guys for all the information. I don't have much experience in metal working and you teach me a few things. I didn't even know that there are special bits required to drill brass.
 
Same for annealing - I knew that heating the metal and let it cool will change its properties but didn't know is called annealing. And this did the trick! The pieces become much softer - maybe a bit too soft. Because of that I managed to drill all strap holes on the drill press with the cost of only one additional 1mm bit.
 
So I am one step further to solder the pintles. For them I decided to use a 1/16'' tubing I have as I also have a larger diameter one which has 1/16in internal diameter for gudgeons. They fit very smoothly one inside the other. The problem I have now is that the holes for the pintles were made with a 1/16 drill bit which gave a very thigh and nice fit and now the silver solder won't get in between the two pieces. All I managed to do was joint surface soldering which is fine till I start filing down the excess of solder. When I am done and the piece looks how I like, the tube gets unsoldered and falls of. Tried a couple of times with the same result.
 
Next thing I want to try is to use regular solder to see if this one gets inside the joint. (The silver solder I have is in a paste inside a syringe mixed with some other substance that bubbles away when heated so a bit difficult to apply uniformly.)
 
If this won't work either, I'll machine on my lathe the pintle pins from brass rod to a slightly smaller diameter than the holes to live more space in the joint and try again the silver solder.
 
Thanks again
 
Alexandru 

Beam set 7 includes the opening for the fore hatch.  These carlings are a little larger than the standard ones.  As I am building the lower deck structures as I move aft, it was time to build the aft sail room.  The fore sail room is one of the small rooms on the port side near beam set 4.  This was a fun little structure to make.  The lateral walls have louvers to allow ventilation into the room.  I do not own a mill so the mortises for the louvers were made with an 11 blade.  On Atalanta, the door into this room is a slider, not a hinged door.  Consequently, the door must be made wider than the opening and it will be on the outside wall of the sail room.  There is a pillar on the inside wall precluding placing the door there.  Not having built a sliding door before, I went over to the local stable and looked at my horse's stall door.  The latch is a L-shaped bolt on the door with a U-shaped piece of metal on the door frame to receive the bolt.  The bolt measured 3" x 4" x 3/8".  This would require making a u-shaped channel 0.01" square.  Needless to say, this is well beyond my skill set so I have a flat piece of metal on the door frame representing it instead.  Decking was placed under the assembly on the starboard side.  The last two pictures show the sail room assembly before and after a coat of finish.
 

 

 

 

 

My sincere and grateful thanks to everyone who visited my build log and your "like" votes.
 
@ Anthony, Boris and Brian answered your question.  It was primarily aimed at cutting through anti shipping nets and cables.  I am not so sure about mine anchoring cables though because of their vertical position and tend to be pulled down and forward with the boat.  That's just my engineering mind thinking    But who am I to make a definitive statement, I'm an airplane guy   
 
The question Boris has for me is where I found the data to show that the O 19 had indeed net / cable cutters brought me to my picture archive.  I remembered that I saw them in several places but could not place where   I'll blame it on old age - - -   I guess though that with my one-track mind and now being busy with other items, such as the numbers and letter and the conning tower it slipped my mind.  
 
In any case, I could kick myself because right there near my work bench is a large copy of the deck layout and the profile drawings.  On these are the net / cable cutters indicated.  There drawings are copies from the original drawings out of the Dutch Navy Archive.  That was the first clue and then I have photos of the O 19 when she was overhauled and converted to English ammo size and replacement parts sometime in 1943.  Reason for the change was that the Japs sunk the Dutch supply ship that serviced the submarine fleet.  Long story there.  This overhaul was done Falmouth, Scotland.  
It is possible that they installed the "teeth" then because I have several photos with the O 19 in Scotland where she has the "teeth".   Then I have a photo with the O 19 surfacing after a test dive in Scotland waters and there she shows the "teeth."  
 
The crux of the matter is that yes, she did have the net / cable cutters at some time after 1943.  Even though the original drawings show her to have "teeth" installed but that was not done when she was being build in Schiedam, the Netherlands.  She also did not have "teeth" when My father served on her from 1938 to the end of 1940.  Remember that my father was promoted to Oppershipper (Adjudant) on January 1, 1941 and had to be transferred to the cruise Hr. Ms. Java at that same day.  Sooooh - - - he may not have served on the O 19 with the net / cable cutter "teeth."   
 
Now, I can either remove them all and show her as she was when my father served on her or leave them on.  Removing them may cause some damage to certain areas that I like to avoid.  It may show but with some careful touching up and new paint - - - ?  I really have to think very hard on this.  I spend quite some time this morning just looking at the model and meditating, it's no an easy decision to make.
 
There are also other changes made to the boat during her overhaul in Scotland that changed the silhouette of the boat.  They removed the deck launch torpedo launcher and the doors, then they removed the forward AA gun placement and made the lower part and the cockpit in one line.  They also changed the exhaust pipe arrangement.
I am not making these changes though, she'll be pretty much like my father knew her, except then for possibly the "teeth."     
 
Let me attach a few pics to show the O 19 with "teeth."   
 

This is a copy of the original drawing out of the Dutch Navy Archive in de Hague.  This is what Remco went for in our quest for the anchors.  It only shows the mushroom anchor.  Please look at the "teeth" on the antenna bracing.
 

This is another copy Remco got for me.  This shows the staboard side where the side anchor should be but is not shown.  Also note the old I D number, still with the K for Kolonien (Colonies) and the traditional Roman numerals.  This method was changed to designating all future subs with an O.  The change took place in 1938 where The O was for domestic waters and the K for the colonies.  Again, please note the "teeth" all the way around to the keel.
 

This is also a copy of a drawing from the Dutch Navy Archive where it shows "teeth" on the propeller bearing housing / dive plane supports as well as the vertical keel / rudder brace.
 

This is cut-away drawing with annotations.  It also shows the "teeth."
 

This shows the O 19 in Scottish waters, sometime in 1943.  She has "teeth" 
 

Another photo of the O 19 in Scotland after her overhaul and modification, she has "teeth."
 
I think this should suffice for now with data that the O 19 indeed had the net / cable cutters installed, but only some time after 1941.  This may have been a British requirement because of the reasons explained above and to be to serve the Dutch boats in Australia.  
 
 
Cheers,

Young America - extreme clipper 1853
Part 24 – Forward Cant Frames
 
 
American Clipper Note: American Clippers not only sailed fast, they were built fast.  Impatient customers demanded it.  A yard would normally launch two from the same slip in a year.  Many were built in close to three months time and one 200-footer, John Bertram, in 61 days.  There were a number of reasons for this productivity.  First there was increased division of labor and the creation of trades.  Gone was the all-around shipwright in favor of gangs for specific tasks.  Steam driven machinery was widely deployed.  McKay, and perhaps other large yards, used steam driven bevel-saws that could be adjusted to the angle of the frame bevel while running.  This alone cut frame fabrication time by a factor of six, using but three men.  Steam derricks were used to raise frames and other heavy timbers, vs. a common practice of everyone dropping what they were doing to lend a hand.  Making treenails was no longer a rainy day make-work job done manually with axes and spoke shaves.  Instead treenails were rapidly turned out in by steam driven lathes.
 
 Back in the model shop, the all-around shipwright plods along.
 
The first picture shows the most forward cant frames being assembled.  Exactly the same pin-indexed alignment method is being used.
 

 
After assembling these roughed out pieces, the frames are beveled and the patterns removed.  The sidings of the upper futtocks are then reduced and the bolts installed.
 
In the next picture this has been done and the starboard frame is being fitted up into the mortise cut for it earlier.
 

 
Some paring of the mortise sides and bottom was done to neatly fit the frame.  In the next picture, the clamping has been set up in preparation for gluing the frame in.
 

 
The clamps were then removed, glue was applied and the clamps replaced.  After drying, the clamps were removed, the frames faired and the six iron bolts into the deadwood installed, as shown in the next picture.
 

 
Stem supports had to be removed for much of this work – usually one side at a time.  In the next picture the port frame has been installed and is being faired with a flat riffler, followed by sanding.
 

 
No project is without rework.  I have normally been making toptimbers from smaller 9-inch stock so these very visible members will be consistently sized - unlike lower timber sidings that have been filed or machined back after pattern removal.  In the case of these first cant frames, this reduced siding at the top left a small gap at the adjoining hawse timbers that can be seen in the last two pictures.  This was an oversight when I lofted the frames.  Rather than delay the erection, I decided to install the frames, then replace the toptimbers - before the glue had set overnight.  The next picture shows the starboard toptimber being removed with the aid of a razor blade in the glue joint.
 

 
No glue was applied on the forward side of this piece, so it was easy to separate with light taps along the joint.  The next picture shows the piece being removed, essentially intact.
 

 
In this picture the port side toptimber has been removed and not yet replaced. 
In the last picture the new larger top timbers have been installed and the joints with the hawse timbers closed up. 
 

 
Installation of the forward half frames has been suspended until all of the cants are in place – to leave room for that work.
 
 
Ed

Hello all!
 
Finally I´ve been able to get a camera ( a 2004 one from my mother). I will put lots of pictures at last!!
 
In the last post all the frames forward from the stern were set but not glued.
 
It took me a while to cut different pieces as spacers to put on the keel. I numbered this chocks because I removed all the frames and glued only some of them aft and the cant frames forward.
 
 
 
I have started sanding both, the aft and fwd. frames. Before starting to sand I reinforced the frames at the ends with some chocks of pine and spacers of the same width like the ones I numbered on the keel. Since there were no frames in the middle of the hull the sanding was easier. The bevel goes pretty steep on those. It is a Good advice that Randy or Bubblehead told to me once. Thanks to them.
 
 
 
I have put lots of chocks between the frames, some a strip of timber, other ones made from a same piece of pine wood cut in half to ensure that in both sides (PS and SB) is the same width.
 
 
 
The handmade sanding blocks were pretty useful. I started with a #3 grit paper. I´ll sand it later with smaller grains. I have glued the paper to the block using “contact glue”. Hope the pic attached will talk by itself. One that has been the best is just an ikea spoon, specially working on the cant frames.
 
 
 
Once the aft frames were much more or less sand I secured the hull adding two 4x4mm beams.
 
Then I have moved to glue all the square frames of the middle. Put the rest of the chocks between the frames and back to sanding again.
 

 

 

 

 
Right now I am cutting the patterns for the hawse pieces and for the keelson. My intention is to strength more the hull by adding the keelson and the at least the #9 thick stuff and #12 lower deck clamps. Then I´ll glue four or five temporary #14 lower deck beams to strength again the hull and get ready of the 4x4 beams…
 
I have completed the hull on November 16th of 2013. She looks beautiful. While sanding her with my hands once and once again sometimes I close my eyes and just feel the shape of the hull. It feels funfantascic, is like touching a sculpture… Anyway I use a 4x1mm ribband to see where I have to sand more or less. It is very helpful.
 Lot of work to do ahead but I feel kind of happy seeing the main whole thing completed.
 
Happy Wiiiiinter!
 
Daniel.

Reading your post and watching them the numbers are amazing!!
 
Ten hours a day working on her, 1700 plastic parts plus the handmade to superdetailed the structure and the whole thing... Simply amazed me!
 
I´ll be here watching for sure!
 
Daniel.

I must say these models are far removed from the models of my youth. I made dozens and dozens of plastic models as a boy but none were this detailed or interesting. I can't say I'll go plastic versus wood but this forum does made me reconsider. Hmmm...
 
Nice work Kevin, it'll be fun watching this model develop.

Ahoy Peter
 
I have also had very good success with the "pin wash" which is also very similar and simple to do. It is used to highlight parts that connect at different angles. Mixed the same way as a wash but applied to the "seam" at one point and allowed to run down it.
 
Speaking of which
 
Using White glue is an excellent way to hide the gaps you sometimes get mounting the structures on top of each other or on the ship itself. It dries clear and causes the colors of the parts to be reflected into it hiding the glue and filling the seam.
 
But
 
NO: it won't fill the big ones, just the little ones . Applied the same way as the pin wash. Thin the glue

a very quick dusting with a primer
 

my scratch building capabilities are being stretched, i don't have the skills yet, or a variety of materials to use, but this is my first attempt at the lift, well over scale, and a lot of i,imagination is required as to how it would work, the over scale upright are some spare waterways from the Victory
i will see if it still looks stoooopid when primed, _ LOL stayed tuned

hello everyone it's me again

 

spent 10 hours on the build today, lol i expected to have 1/2 finished the whole lot by now, not still putting pipe work on the smoke stack

 

why oh why can they not get some things right, where the white boxes are that i have put in, they sit above a platform, there is meant to be a lift there, that goes up to the search light platform, dam it was to late for me to rectify it, even the PE kit does not detail it, so the Bismarck wont be sailing with it

Tomorrow i will try to have this area finished, up to the stage of attaching the two small hangers 

good evening everyone
 
an enjoyable day for me, as i now start doing things with the build that are not in the kit, yep i ques that's scratch building,there is a lot of pipe work extra to be put on, i will do the big bigs
also there was nothing to secure the cranes, so i have just put a small tripod in to give the impression that the davit would be sceured
 

anyway i have taken the criticism like a man, well whimp and done something about it, to me it's better than it was, i removed the front HMS Victory waterway replaced it with 1mm copper wire, 
 
the guards look bigger in the photo, i think the shadow is catching them as they dont look quite so big in the side elevation

yep you win, i will endevour to try again this evening, but i will keep the back lift support in place
 
i just found this photo

Boy, that quote would get me a punch in the face and a divorce!  Ha ha!
I drag the little lady off to look at my progress and her favorite line is "it looks just like it did the last time you made me look. When Are you going to learn that I really don't care about model ships. Don't you know we live in Colorado, not on the ocean?"
 
Nope, not going to be dropping this project. I was told this book would help with the building of the Triton. Even if it does not, I will still enjoy reading it. You can't have too many model ship books. 
 
Richard